Understanding the purpose of Baptism?

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Since: Jul 11

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#1
May 10, 2013
 
Does the fact that baptism is into forgiveness mean that forgiveness can only be obtained by understanding the purpose of baptism?

I wholeheartedly contend that baptism is the point at which a sinner is forgiven- added to the Body of Christ, etc.

Is Gods’ grace/forgiveness a result of our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does God require we fully grasp this before He acts IN BAPTISM?

If someone is baptized because they have faith in Jesus’ Blood- His resurrection, isn’t this being baptized for proper reasons? Forgiveness is found IN CHRIST, by His Blood, shed on the cross.

Most everyone I know is baptized with faith in Jesus, knowing His Blood forgives sin. Will God condemn a sinner to hell if he fails to understand that IN BAPTISM there is done an operation on the sinner, by God- Col.2:11-12?

Does the work of God hinge upon our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does our misunderstanding the purpose of baptism cause God to withhold forgiveness of the sinner seeking forgiveness even when the sinner has faith in His Son and faith in Jesus’ Blood and resurrected Life?

At the point of faith, the sinner knows very little- almost nothing about the New Birth, doctrines, etc. I believe at the point of genuine faith, God allows misunderstandings, just as he allows misunderstandings to the New Born IN CHRIST. If God can permit the New Born to hold error/misunderstandings while growing in grace, it seems logical the same standards would apply to the sinner seeking God for salvation.

How can God expect the sinner to get it all right prior to salvation, dotting every i crossing every t before He will grant forgiveness, then allow error/misunderstandings after the sinner is saved?

Does the fact that baptism is into forgiveness mean that forgiveness can only be obtained by understanding the purpose of baptism?

I wholeheartedly contend that baptism is the point at which a sinner is forgiven- added to the Body of Christ, etc.

Is Gods’ grace/forgiveness a result of our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does God require we fully grasp this before He acts IN BAPTISM?

If someone is baptized because they have faith in Jesus’ Blood- His resurrection, isn’t this being baptized for proper reasons? Forgiveness is found IN CHRIST, by His Blood, shed on the cross.

Most everyone I know is baptized with faith in Jesus, knowing His Blood forgives sin. Will God condemn a sinner to hell if he fails to understand that IN BAPTISM there is done an operation on the sinner, by God- Col.2:11-12?

Does the work of God hinge upon our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does our misunderstanding the purpose of baptism cause God to withhold forgiveness of the sinner seeking forgiveness even when the sinner has faith in His Son and faith in Jesus’ Blood and resurrected Life?

At the point of faith, the sinner knows very little- almost nothing about the New Birth, doctrines, etc. I believe at the point of genuine faith, God allows misunderstandings, just as he allows misunderstandings to the New Born IN CHRIST. If God can permit the New Born to hold error/misunderstandings while growing in grace, it seems logical the same standards would apply to the sinner seeking God for salvation.

How can God expect the sinner to get it all right prior to salvation, dotting every i crossing every t before He will grant forgiveness, then allow error/misunderstandings after the sinner is saved?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#2
May 10, 2013
 
I think this is a good honest path you are on. It is where most in the progressive coc's are today.
mopman

United States

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#3
May 10, 2013
 
Hold up there. You sure not saying sinners can be saved any how they want to are you. Your comment creed means all people will be saved. So god set a way of salvation but you say tha t why don't matter for people who can't understand it. What about the blood on door post in old testament. Was that optional
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#4
May 10, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
Hold up there. You sure not saying sinners can be saved any how they want to are you. Your comment creed means all people will be saved. So god set a way of salvation but you say tha t why don't matter for people who can't understand it. What about the blood on door post in old testament. Was that optional
I don't believe that is at all what he is saying. I think he is saying we are saved by faith in the cross of Jesus and his shed blood in spite of our misunderstandings (even about baptism) that we are not by perfect knowledge.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#5
May 10, 2013
 
that we are not saved by "perfect" knowledge.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#6
May 10, 2013
 
I read this quote the other day.

The world says seeing is believing-God says believing is seeing.

Since: Jul 11

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#7
May 10, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe that is at all what he is saying. I think he is saying we are saved by faith in the cross of Jesus and his shed blood in spite of our misunderstandings (even about baptism) that we are not by perfect knowledge.
Correct. That is what I am saying.

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#8
May 10, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
Hold up there. You sure not saying sinners can be saved any how they want to are you. Your comment creed means all people will be saved. So god set a way of salvation but you say tha t why don't matter for people who can't understand it. What about the blood on door post in old testament. Was that optional
Must one also know the following before baptism is valid:

Leviticus 16:29-34 speaks of the scape-goat. I believe Jesus is our scape goat today.

The blood of Jesus was for the redemption of all mankind: Eph 1:7.

The blood of Christ justifies: Rom 5:9.

It sanctifies: Heb 13:12

Washes: Rev 1:5

Brings us near to God: Col 1:20

The church was bought with the Blood of Christ: Acts 20:28; Rev 5:9

Hebrews 9:11: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

My point: we all lack insight on many things in the Bible. Error/misunderstandings are excused/allowed as Christians as we grow in knowledge and truth. If, as, Christians, we can lack insight- hold error/misunderstandings, surely God doesn’t require the sinner to perfectly grasp everything before he can be saved. This is why I am leaning more this direction. I am not promoting faith alone, in case some are thinking I am heading that direction. Perhaps, at faith, we begin the process, at which point, God also allows misunderstandings on the purpose of baptism. As I stated already, everyone I know who has been baptized done so with the Gospel in view. Matter of fact, the people I have seen baptized in other denominations rejoiced and even cried when baptized. It wasn’t to them a step to formula but something that had much more meaning- a reminder that Jesus died and rose for them.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#9
May 10, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Correct. That is what I am saying.
Bobby, add me to this list. What I think I have been trying to say all along.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#10
May 10, 2013
 
CCC

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#11
May 10, 2013
 
Ephesians 4 tells us we are given offices to equip saints for the work of ministry, UNTIL we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

This work is done after conversion and continues until we leave this world.

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#12
May 10, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
CCC
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
Where is this verse in our Bible, Mike?

"Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word" - I'm not at all saying water regenerates. I don't find that teaching in Scripture either.

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#13
May 10, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Ephesians 4 tells us we are given offices to equip saints for the work of ministry, UNTIL we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
This work is done after conversion and continues until we leave this world.
Agreed!
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#14
May 10, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Ephesians 4 tells us we are given offices to equip saints for the work of ministry, UNTIL we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
This work is done after conversion and continues until we leave this world.
Amen.

The Ministry is the Church. Unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. Unity is impossible with the doctrine of SS.

Paul was talking about bringing the converts to the UNITY of ........
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#15
May 10, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Ephesians 4 tells us we are given offices to equip saints for the work of ministry, UNTIL we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
This work is done after conversion and continues until we leave this world.
Yes...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#16
May 10, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Where is this verse in our Bible, Mike?
"Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word" - I'm not at all saying water regenerates. I don't find that teaching in Scripture either.
John 3:5 (RSV):“Jesus answered,‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’”

Acts 2:38:“And Peter said to them,‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 22:16:“And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”

1 Corinthians 6:11:“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Titus 3:5:“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,”

1 Peter 3:19-21:“in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#17
May 10, 2013
 
WHY I CAN NOT BE ROMAN CATHOLIC – PART ONE
SOLA SCRIPTURA (SCRIPTURE ONLY)

http://www.gbcwashingtonin.com/BST%20-%20Roma...
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#18
May 10, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Bobby wrote:
WHY I CAN NOT BE ROMAN CATHOLIC – PART ONE
SOLA SCRIPTURA (SCRIPTURE ONLY)
http://www.gbcwashingtonin.com/BST%20-%20Roma...
I read the whole site. Brings back memories to me. Exactly what I used to believe. I like brushing up on all the old arguments.

One thing did stand out to me though. I thought this one wasnt used much anymore I am just going to be nice and say whoever put this up is uneducated on the topic.

It says the Council of Trent added 7 books to then OT. This can be proved historically that this was a complete untruth. That council reaffirmed the 73 books after Luther took out 6.

I can point you to minutes of the Council if you want proof. The Church has kept awesome records of the good and the bad.

The rest of the site is typical anti-catholic stuff.

Enjoy this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#19
May 10, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I read the whole site. Brings back memories to me. Exactly what I used to believe. I like brushing up on all the old arguments.
One thing did stand out to me though. I thought this one wasnt used much anymore I am just going to be nice and say whoever put this up is uneducated on the topic.
It says the Council of Trent added 7 books to then OT. This can be proved historically that this was a complete untruth. That council reaffirmed the 73 books after Luther took out 6.
I can point you to minutes of the Council if you want proof. The Church has kept awesome records of the good and the bad.
The rest of the site is typical anti-catholic stuff.
Enjoy this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
"One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic," Thomas Reese notes in an April 18 article in the National Catholic Reporter. "If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic."

Reese's article, which generated buzz and debate in the Catholic world, argued that the primary reason people leave the Catholic church for Protestantism is not disagreement with the church's doctrinal or social positions,

but **spiritual hunger**.

http://www.charismamag.com/site-archives/570-...
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#20
May 10, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
"One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic," Thomas Reese notes in an April 18 article in the National Catholic Reporter. "If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic."
Reese's article, which generated buzz and debate in the Catholic world, argued that the primary reason people leave the Catholic church for Protestantism is not disagreement with the church's doctrinal or social positions,
but **spiritual hunger**.
http://www.charismamag.com/site-archives/570-...
Right after that sentence it describes he "spiritual hunger".

Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.

Not much about the truths. They are more entertained

They want to be entertained and church shop like most Prots.

Most of these are those new mega-churches.

Like the popular Prot Radio host ,Alan Hunt, I believe said, They are getting our good Prots and we are getting their bad Catholics

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