The Shed Blood of Jesus Christ

The Shed Blood of Jesus Christ

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Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#1 Dec 28, 2012
It is God's Holy Spirit by which a penitent believer is placed into the Body of Jesus Christ or the grace-imparting sacrament of baptism? I firmly believe it is by God's Holy Spirit by which a penitent believer is placed into the Body of Jesus Christ. Baptism is not a sacrament, as if God's grace is bestowed as He perceives in our hearts via baptism that our faith is real, BUUUTT a response of faith to a work completely done by Jesus.

We evidence our FAITH in Baptism by an act in which we reenact His death, burial and resurrection - Romans 6. Water only can cleanse the physical body, but it is the shed blood of Christ that cleanses the Soul. The Blood of Jesus is a spiritual reality that is figuratively portrayed in the symbolic rite of water baptism. The water serves no saving purpose whatsoever. It is merely a response of faith to a work completely done by Jesus. His Blood is what washes away sin, not water baptism.

Rev. 7:14 says, a great multitude were before the throne clothed in white robes, who "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Baptism is the outward and visible sign of His inward and spiritual cleansing from sin by the grace of God in the blood of the Lamb. Being baptized doesn’t activate God’s grace nor does being baptized WASH away sins. THE ACT of immersion in water cannot cleanse sin. Only Jesus’ Blood can wash away sins. Perhaps the washing of sins by His Blood is done when one responds in faith to the gospel which includes baptism but never should we make baptism something it is not. A symbol is merely something that represents a reality. THE SYMBOL has no saving power.

I know some will read this and conclude I am trying to take baptism out of the picture – I’m not! I’m merely trying to place Jesus and His work at the forefront.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#2 Dec 28, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
It is God's Holy Spirit by which a penitent believer is placed into the Body of Jesus Christ or the grace-imparting sacrament of baptism? I firmly believe it is by God's Holy Spirit by which a penitent believer is placed into the Body of Jesus Christ. Baptism is not a sacrament, as if God's grace is bestowed as He perceives in our hearts via baptism that our faith is real, BUUUTT a response of faith to a work completely done by Jesus.
We evidence our FAITH in Baptism by an act in which we reenact His death, burial and resurrection - Romans 6. Water only can cleanse the physical body, but it is the shed blood of Christ that cleanses the Soul. The Blood of Jesus is a spiritual reality that is figuratively portrayed in the symbolic rite of water baptism. The water serves no saving purpose whatsoever. It is merely a response of faith to a work completely done by Jesus. His Blood is what washes away sin, not water baptism.
Rev. 7:14 says, a great multitude were before the throne clothed in white robes, who "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Baptism is the outward and visible sign of His inward and spiritual cleansing from sin by the grace of God in the blood of the Lamb. Being baptized doesn’t activate God’s grace nor does being baptized WASH away sins. THE ACT of immersion in water cannot cleanse sin. Only Jesus’ Blood can wash away sins. Perhaps the washing of sins by His Blood is done when one responds in faith to the gospel which includes baptism but never should we make baptism something it is not. A symbol is merely something that represents a reality. THE SYMBOL has no saving power.
I know some will read this and conclude I am trying to take baptism out of the picture – I’m not! I’m merely trying to place Jesus and His work at the forefront.
The simple act of baptism itself, by itself, does nothing. The reason I posted about "the point" last night was to show exactly what you're trying to say here. We are saved, forgiven of sins, put in Christ, and washed in His blood all at the same time. You stated it correctly- this happens when one responds in faith to the gospel, and baptism is part of that. Not ALL, but it does have a role.

Catholicism, and perhaps some coc, do look at baptism in the sacramental way. Protestants and Evangelicals see no role for baptism in any of this- it's just something that needs to be done later, for obedience. I don't see the truth in any of these two extremes, true baptismal regeneration or faith alone.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#3 Dec 28, 2012
This is why I do NOT want to make baptism THE point one is free of sin because saying that often leads people to conclude baptism IS obeying the gospel. I know of one church of Christ website that had a picture of someone being baptized along with the words OBEYING THE GOSPEL. Again, as you stated, baptism is PART but not ALL thus I will not say baptism is the POINT one is saved. Part of the point – yes - but not THE POINT.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#4 Dec 28, 2012
If baptism is THE point, then I’d agree with Bobby and state that the church of Christ teach baptismal regeneration. However, if we are promised remission of sin/eternal life WHEN we have faith that acts by submitting to conditions i.e. acknowledging Jesus as Lord, repentance, and baptism, then THE POINT is ……………………………………………………………… FAITH. Not faith alone but a faith that demonstrates that’s its real. In essence, I am saying faith is like a conduit through which we receive salvation.
munum

Masontown, PA

#5 Dec 28, 2012
youtube.com/watch...
Like Urinating I suppose?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#6 Dec 28, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
The simple act of baptism itself, by itself, does nothing. The reason I posted about "the point" last night was to show exactly what you're trying to say here. We are saved, forgiven of sins, put in Christ, and washed in His blood all at the same time. You stated it correctly- this happens when one responds in faith to the gospel, and baptism is part of that. Not ALL, but it does have a role.
Catholicism, and perhaps some coc, do look at baptism in the sacramental way. Protestants and Evangelicals see no role for baptism in any of this- it's just something that needs to be done later, for obedience. I don't see the truth in any of these two extremes, true baptismal regeneration or faith alone.
You have yet to deal with the thief on the cross not being able to receive water baptism. The most challenging part of your position of quasi baptismal regeneration is in the way we deal with salvation from Adam to now. If you contend that they obeyed what they knew and understood you will come us with a different gospel every time.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#7 Dec 28, 2012
Bobby, the theif is irrelevant. The first gospel sermon was days away... Why not bring up everyone from 2000 years ago? or beyond?

How will they be judged? How will they be saved?

The issue then is one thing, with us another - but both are related.

How about answering some questions?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#8 Dec 28, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You have yet to deal with the thief on the cross not being able to receive water baptism. The most challenging part of your position of quasi baptismal regeneration is in the way we deal with salvation from Adam to now. If you contend that they obeyed what they knew and understood you will come us with a different gospel every time.
Thiefy has been dealt with millions of times, and several times by me on here. Not rehashing all the arguments-you probably know them by heart. Cliff notes version- great commission not given until after the resurrection, new covenant not in effect until Pentecost.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#9 Dec 29, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Thiefy has been dealt with millions of times, and several times by me on here. Not rehashing all the arguments-you probably know them by heart. Cliff notes version- great commission not given until after the resurrection, new covenant not in effect until Pentecost.
Explained away not dealt with.

When and how were men first Justified? Oops we may need to identify what the term means. The gospel was first mentioned in gen, not by Peter. Paul confirms it in Hebrews. The thief was saved the same way as any of God's people. Salvation for both sides of the cross was consummated/made perfect by Jesus shed blood. That is why we have the great hall of faith characters in Hebrews-they were saved by faith in a Savior/Messiah.

All of the baptismal regeneration believers fight against the cross and salvation by faith.

Our discussions always boil down the a three letter word "eis"...
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#10 Dec 29, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Explained away not dealt with.
When and how were men first Justified? Oops we may need to identify what the term means. The gospel was first mentioned in gen, not by Peter. Paul confirms it in Hebrews. The thief was saved the same way as any of God's people. Salvation for both sides of the cross was consummated/made perfect by Jesus shed blood. That is why we have the great hall of faith characters in Hebrews-they were saved by faith in a Savior/Messiah.
Think I said this very thing a long time ago. All people are saved by faith. Good job.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#11 Dec 29, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
All of the baptismal regeneration believers fight against the cross and salvation by faith.
Our discussions always boil down the a three letter word "eis"...
Our discussions boil down to the definition of faith and the purpose of baptism. I fight against the idea that faith is a simple belief and 'trust' in Christ. The truth is that real faith is hearing the word and acting on it through repentance and baptism. No action on our part= no faith on our part.

Perhaps you've slipped on the "eis".
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#12 Dec 29, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Our discussions boil down to the definition of faith and the purpose of baptism. I fight against the idea that faith is a simple belief and 'trust' in Christ. The truth is that real faith is hearing the word and acting on it through repentance and baptism. No action on our part= no faith on our part.
Perhaps you've slipped on the "eis".
I doubt that every word spoken by the two criminals on the cross or even every word Jesus spoke is written down as scripture. However it seems to me that the conversation between Jesus and the thief must have been important enough to be mentioned.

If we are to believe Jesus the thief was Justified by faith alone. Now, there are some cocers who have tried to teach that the thief must have been water baptized by John. Do you want to go down that road-it is a slippery slope...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#13 Dec 29, 2012
Two criminals hanging on a cross next to Jesus is a fitting story/analogy of each of us. A criminal is a law-breaker and in this case the criminals were being punished for their crimes.

I wonder how many of us consider ourselves to have been a criminal/lawbreaker. Jesus hung there on that cross as the only righteous/non lawbreaker to ever live to shed his pure blood as a sacrifice for law-breakers like us.

How could a criminal in today's court of Justice offer to pay for the life he has taken or whatever his crime was and then get a "get out of jail free card".

This shows the mercy of God to pay our sin debt when he owes us punishment not mercy. The only difference between sinner and a saint is that the saint is forgiven.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#14 Dec 30, 2012
And here I mistakenly thought the difference between the sinner and the saint is that the saint repented and turned to DO what God said (rather than continuing on in the same manner of life, but BELIEVING Jesus saves unrepentant persons):-)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#15 Dec 30, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I doubt that every word spoken by the two criminals on the cross or even every word Jesus spoke is written down as scripture. However it seems to me that the conversation between Jesus and the thief must have been important enough to be mentioned.
If we are to believe Jesus the thief was Justified by faith alone. Now, there are some cocers who have tried to teach that the thief must have been water baptized by John. Do you want to go down that road-it is a slippery slope...
John's baptism has nothing to do with thiefy. Faith 'alone' huh? No repentance, no confession? Wrong answer.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#16 Dec 30, 2012
Barnsweb wrote:
And here I mistakenly thought the difference between the sinner and the saint is that the saint repented and turned to DO what God said (rather than continuing on in the same manner of life, but BELIEVING Jesus saves unrepentant persons):-)
Barnsweb, I know I have been harsh with you, but I can see no other way to get you to realize that your obedience in law keeping or Jesus words keeping is flawed. I am just a normal old country boy, but I can see plainly what is going on in other peoples lives. The reason is that we all came from a a fallen race, we are all tainted with sin, unable to help our selves. God saw this very early on with our very first parents. They sinned where there was no sin, they did however have a tempter in the garden with them.

All have sinned and fall short, we are unable repair the damage, we cannot just stop sinning and turn over a new leaf and start over through our own will. We need help beyond our own abilities.

The law/commandments were holy and perfect but the people could not perfectly keep them and God does not accept our tainted fruit. He does accept our faith/repentance when we say in our hearts 'Yes Jesus is the promise I need". As much as we desire to obey and to live perfectly before him, we cannot, the old nature is still there. In our minds and hearts we promise him we will never sin again, but we do.

Christ in us is enough to keep us from falling, we are secure in him-not through our own will/good intentions, but by his power. When we are in Christ we are viewed as though we have never sinned, when in fact we have. Justification first, then sanctification.

Blessed is the man who has no sin. Well, it actually says "blessed is the man who's sin will not be counted against him".
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#17 Jan 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Barnsweb, I know I have been harsh with you, but I can see no other way to get you to realize that your obedience in law keeping or Jesus words keeping is flawed. I am just a normal old country boy, but I can see plainly what is going on in other peoples lives. The reason is that we all came from a a fallen race, we are all tainted with sin, unable to help our selves. God saw this very early on with our very first parents. They sinned where there was no sin, they did however have a tempter in the garden with them.
All have sinned and fall short, we are unable repair the damage, we cannot just stop sinning and turn over a new leaf and start over through our own will. We need help beyond our own abilities.
The law/commandments were holy and perfect but the people could not perfectly keep them and God does not accept our tainted fruit. He does accept our faith/repentance when we say in our hearts 'Yes Jesus is the promise I need". As much as we desire to obey and to live perfectly before him, we cannot, the old nature is still there. In our minds and hearts we promise him we will never sin again, but we do.
Christ in us is enough to keep us from falling, we are secure in him-not through our own will/good intentions, but by his power. When we are in Christ we are viewed as though we have never sinned, when in fact we have. Justification first, then sanctification.
Blessed is the man who has no sin. Well, it actually says "blessed is the man who's sin will not be counted against him".
That's a nice theory, but it doesn't seem to align well with the epistles of Jesus, or His teachings, except for those who are 'abiding' is His word, who have repented to do the will of God. And in His epistles, He makes strong points that seem to nulify the theory that His righteousness is accounted to us so that there is no need to seek to be better or continue in repentance as the Spirit and Word show us things we need to do.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#18 Jan 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The law/commandments were holy and perfect but the people could not perfectly keep them and God does not accept our tainted fruit. He does accept our faith/repentance when we say in our hearts 'Yes Jesus is the promise I need".
Christ in us is enough to keep us from falling, we are secure in him-not through our own will/good intentions, but by his power. When we are in Christ we are viewed as though we have never sinned, when in fact we have. Justification first, then sanctification.
Blessed is the man who has no sin. Well, it actually says "blessed is the man who's sin will not be counted against him".
I got to the good stuff. Teachable moments-
"He does accept our faith/repentance"- Is faith and repentance the same thing? Perhaps part of the same process? If faith/repentance is accurate, then so is faith/repentance/baptism. It's all part of faith.

"He does accept our faith/repentance when we say in our hearts 'Yes Jesus is the promise I need'". Good ol' sinners' prayer, nowhere to be found in scripture, disproven by the words of Jesus and the apostles and the typology of the tabernacle.

*Outside the tent- altar, place where sacrifice died- represents the cross. Next- the laver- where washing took place. Represents baptism- see Titus 3:5, which literally says "the laver of regeneration." Once the sacrifice was made and washing was done, then one could go into the tent, where the showbread, lampstand, and altar of incense were. The altar of incense represents prayer in the Scripture. Only a priest, inside the tent, could offer incense. Big picture here- a 'sinner' trying to pray for his salvation is not only a lie, but is the equivalent of a priest going into the tent without the sacrifice being made or being cleansed. That didn't work with God then, and doesn't now.

"When we are in Christ we are viewed as though we have never sinned, when in fact we have." The old imputed righteousness/sinless perfection argument. "Rose colored glasses". God sees us how we are at all times. The righteousness of Christ is not imputed to us. Paul is clear to state that the faith of Abraham was accounted to him, and our faith, is accounted to us by God for righteousness. God declares us righteous, and "not guilty". The passage in Philippians 3 illuminates this point even further. As for "rose colored glasses", Christ could see the flaws of all of the churches in Revelation. In no way we can say that God doesn't 'see' our sins. Flat out false doctrine.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#19 Jan 3, 2013
Yes faith and repentance are so closely connected together that are not intended be separated.

The title of this thread is The Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

What I hear you guys saying is that the blood of Christ by itself is not sufficient and complete for forgiveness/regeneration.

God doesn't see our sins in the sense that they have been blotted out from the record.However I am glad that you see clearly that you have sinned. Do you see clearly that you are still a sinner/lawbreaker? Water baptism is not the promise we need it is Jesus alone!

If we get technical we could say that obedience to every command in the bible when obeyed is part of the gospel. Oh, wait a minute that is actually the way that campbellites believe anyway. And, then they pray their way back into the kingdom each time they sin.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#20 Jan 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Yes faith and repentance are so closely connected together that are not intended be separated.
The title of this thread is The Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.
What I hear you guys saying is that the blood of Christ by itself is not sufficient and complete for forgiveness/regeneration.
God doesn't see our sins in the sense that they have been blotted out from the record.However I am glad that you see clearly that you have sinned. Do you see clearly that you are still a sinner/lawbreaker? Water baptism is not the promise we need it is Jesus alone!
If we get technical we could say that obedience to every command in the bible when obeyed is part of the gospel. Oh, wait a minute that is actually the way that campbellites believe anyway. And, then they pray their way back into the kingdom each time they sin.
*May I suggest hearing aids?:) The issue we have here is that the Lord Himself and His New Testament says that we are washed in His blood; and that the blood of Christ washes away sins. No argument from me on that-except that we are also told that our sins are washed away in baptism. So the rub is simply this- when we obey the gospel, culminating in baptism, there are simultaneous spiritual activities taking place. One of those activities is being washed in His blood and the forgiveness of sins. Remember- the sum of Thy word is truth. No one is saying the blood of Christ isn't sufficient or complete- just stating where the Bible says that takes place.

*Christians are never called sinners in the New Testament. We're called saints. Saints may sin from time to time, but that doesn't make one a "sinner".

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