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#141
May 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
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This is that same troll only with a different name and location.
It may be Johnny or one of his gang.
what

Chicago, IL

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#142
May 19, 2013
 
Olethros wrote:
<quoted text>
It may be Johnny or one of his gang.
How come so far, you refuse to confess that Jesus is your redeemer?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#143
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I case you have forgotten you, Jesus came to fulfill the law and to forgive sin-not to continue to push it forward another few years. Jesus life is the embodiment of the grace of God-that is what he died for.
If man could have overcome his sin and completely obeyed the law of Moses then there was no need for Jesus to offer his life for sinners!
The doctrine of Christ is summed up in the cross-the doctrine of love. He loved us enough to die for us while we were yet sinners.
We can strive to keep the 613 commands/laws of God but we will fail- perfection cannot be earned except through the blood of the one man Jesus the Christ. The doctrine of Christ is clearly about who he is and why he came to redeem us.
If Yeshua is the Living Torah, then the Law DID die. If the Law died, then it is no longer in effect. If you are a Law ‘keeper’, are you going to come back and say that the Law rose from the dead? Are you going to pick the Law apart like you do to ‘keep’ it? Can you pick Yeshua apart and say that only ‘parts’ of the Word were put to death? Was the Law resurrected? Borrowed
Genesis 5 names meaning prophecy:'Man is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring the despairing comfort, rest.'

Isaiah 54:13/John 6:45 - Jesus fulfills the 'they shall all be taught by God' passages.

Is. 56:1,2;6-8
"'Here is what Adonai says: Observe justice, do what is right,
for my salvation is close to coming,
my righteousness to being revealed.'
Happy is the person who does this;
anyone who grasps it firmly,
who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it,
and keeps himself from doing any evil."

"And the foreigners who join themselves to Adonai
to serve him, to love the name of Adonai,
and to be his workers,
all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it,
and hold fast to my covenant,
I will bring them to my holy mountain
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all peoples.
Adonai Elohim says,
he who gathers Israel's exiles;
"There are others I will gather,
besides those gathered already."

Bobby, since you constantly reject the fact that Jesus said we are to abide in His word and keep the commandments of God, it seems good that I show you a passage from Isaiah and show you that even the Gentiles are expected to be taught by God and to keep His Shabbat. And that is just one of the many things that someone - Jew or Gentile will affirm - that the commandments of God, the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the faith of Jesus - these things are needful because God has said so. And none of His word will pass away, but is ever faithful and strong to do that which He has purposed in saying it.

You can follow a pretend gospel all you want, but remain hopeful that your eyes be opened to the truth God spoke being the actual eternal truth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant to Abraham, and He desires that all would repent and turn to do the will of God.

God has given us ample proofs that show disbelief has no good reward.

"Hear Him."
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#144
May 20, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Genesis 5 names meaning prophecy:'Man is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring the despairing comfort, rest.'
Isaiah 54:13/John 6:45 - Jesus fulfills the 'they shall all be taught by God' passages.
Is. 56:1,2;6-8
"'Here is what Adonai says: Observe justice, do what is right,
for my salvation is close to coming,
my righteousness to being revealed.'
Happy is the person who does this;
anyone who grasps it firmly,
who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it,
and keeps himself from doing any evil."
"And the foreigners who join themselves to Adonai
to serve him, to love the name of Adonai,
and to be his workers,
all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it,
and hold fast to my covenant,
I will bring them to my holy mountain
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all peoples.
Adonai Elohim says,
he who gathers Israel's exiles;
"There are others I will gather,
besides those gathered already."
Bobby, since you constantly reject the fact that Jesus said we are to abide in His word and keep the commandments of God, it seems good that I show you a passage from Isaiah and show you that even the Gentiles are expected to be taught by God and to keep His Shabbat. And that is just one of the many things that someone - Jew or Gentile will affirm - that the commandments of God, the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the faith of Jesus - these things are needful because God has said so. And none of His word will pass away, but is ever faithful and strong to do that which He has purposed in saying it.
You can follow a pretend gospel all you want, but remain hopeful that your eyes be opened to the truth God spoke being the actual eternal truth.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant to Abraham, and He desires that all would repent and turn to do the will of God.
God has given us ample proofs that show disbelief has no good reward.
"Hear Him."
I have never advocated disobedience, but God sent us a savior who is familiar with mans condition. He was not sent to gather perfect people, he was sent to save sinners.

As long as we disagree on the change of covenants we will continue have trouble resolving our differences.

We have, NEW Covenant, not a RENEWED Covenant. Paul is a very real apostle sent to gentiles with a message that closes the door to the old covenant (it's rules and regulations) and opens the door for ALL people to be saved. If you don't believe that, then you should be keeping all 613 OT laws including animal sacrifices.

I suspect that you have forgotten that Abraham was justified by faith before any law was introduced and before he offered his own son as a sacrifice.

Even that "heathen false apostle" Paul said: So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Gal 3 is titled-
Faith or Works of the Law

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not!

**For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.**

22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

William

Birmingham, AL

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#145
May 20, 2013
 
Everything that was needed for you/me/everyone to be saved was accomplished by Jesus Christ on that cross, and his subsequent burial and resurrection by God FOR our justification (Galatians 2:16). God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, and Paul was given "the ministry of reconciliation".

That ministry of reconciliation is the gospel of the grace of God.

William

Birmingham, AL

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#146
May 20, 2013
 
But ... you have to make a decision to believe it, and more importantly, TRUST it.

Christ died for your sins, was buried, and resurrected for your justification. It's referred to as the faith OF Jesus Christ. HIS faith accomplished what yours cannot.

Since: May 10

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#147
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never advocated disobedience, but God sent us a savior who is familiar with mans condition. He was not sent to gather perfect people, he was sent to save sinners.
As long as we disagree on the change of covenants we will continue have trouble resolving our differences.
We have, NEW Covenant, not a RENEWED Covenant. Paul is a very real apostle sent to gentiles with a message that closes the door to the old covenant (it's rules and regulations) and opens the door for ALL people to be saved. If you don't believe that, then you should be keeping all 613 OT laws including animal sacrifices.
I suspect that you have forgotten that Abraham was justified by faith before any law was introduced and before he offered his own son as a sacrifice.
Even that "heathen false apostle" Paul said: So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Gal 3 is titled-
Faith or Works of the Law
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not!
**For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.**
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
But Bobby there is Law for all mankind NOW not just for the Jews. The new Law is Christs' Law and yes it does deal with sin and the command to flee from it. Christ even told people to go and sin no more. So there has to be law and Grace that compliment each other not oppose each other. Grace of salvation is a gift that God has offered to either be rejected or accepted. Obedience to commands is the acceptance. Even you can not say that man does not have a part in the accepting the gift by faithful obedience.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#148
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never advocated disobedience, but God sent us a savior who is familiar with mans condition. He was not sent to gather perfect people, he was sent to save sinners.
As long as we disagree on the change of covenants we will continue have trouble resolving our differences.
We have, NEW Covenant, not a RENEWED Covenant. Paul is a very real apostle sent to gentiles with a message that closes the door to the old covenant (it's rules and regulations) and opens the door for ALL people to be saved. If you don't believe that, then you should be keeping all 613 OT laws including animal sacrifices.
I suspect that you have forgotten that Abraham was justified by faith before any law was introduced and before he offered his own son as a sacrifice.
Even that "heathen false apostle" Paul said: So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Gal 3 is titled-
Faith or Works of the Law
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not!
**For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.**
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Believe/trust in, pretty much mean the same thing.

Genesis 26:5 says what it means, and I've brought this up before.

Secondly, if Paul actually believed what you seem to say he did, isn't it a mystery then, why he would be working so hard, if works didn't matter?:-)

As the 32nd degree Mason said to me, after reading Apollyon Rising 2012:'I guess it's just a matter of what you believe.' Your argument is oft' used amongst the pagans and atheists...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#149
May 20, 2013
 
William wrote:
But ... you have to make a decision to believe it, and more importantly, TRUST it.
Christ died for your sins, was buried, and resurrected for your justification. It's referred to as the faith OF Jesus Christ. HIS faith accomplished what yours cannot.
We seem to be miles apart on some things, but I agree both of your messages.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#150
May 20, 2013
 
Luke 6:46-49; "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great."

John 15:9-15; "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing, but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you."

Revelation 22:14; "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Jesus gave hundreds of teachings, and each has important lessons in our discipleship to Him.

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

True doctrine is to observe all of the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.

The teachings of Jesus cover many things, and here are a few more things He said on the topic:

Matthew 4:4; 'It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

John 6:63,64; "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe."

Revelation 22:12-16; "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#151
May 20, 2013
 
God is returning in justice, to give to each according to his works - be they good or of evil. To pretend it's only about His works, and not our works, is just a lie of Satan. First, He paid the price deficient to redeem us - but we are called to His service - which is to Keep His Words that lead to eternal life. To ignore that is to all but abort ones-self.

Acts 3:22-26.



"For Moses truly said to the fathers,'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#152
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby, what did Jesus say? Set Paul aside a moment. What did Jesus say about the covenant? Don't think I came to destroy or set aside the Law or prophets? Not one letter can pass away though heaven and earth may pass away?

The word translated 'new covenant' in the NT, is translated 'renew' in the OT, as in 'renew' the heart within.

Where did Jesus teach to not keep the commandments of God? Can you show me that chapter in the NT?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#153
May 20, 2013
 
I see you are now using Jesus words spoken while he was yet alive but written in the new testament. What I can tell you is that Jesus was born under the old covenant and died under the old covenant. Most of what he spoke was basically to those under the old covenant. The covenant did not change until his death.

The law was for the Jews not the gentiles. Jesus was a Jew but yet he died for the sins of both Jew and gentile.

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith".

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

About the only defense I see that you may have is is to disqualify Paul as an Apostle.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#154
May 20, 2013
 
"We seem to be miles apart on some things, but I agree both of your messages."

Bobby, here is the ministry of reconciliation:

2 Corinthians 5:18-21 (KJV)

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

A hugely overlooked series of verses, straight from the Holy Spirit through Paul's pen.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#155
May 20, 2013
 
BW: Bobby, since you constantly reject the fact that Jesus said we are to abide in His word and keep the commandments of God....

Bobby: I have never advocated disobedience...

This is like baptism, the never-ending story. LOL.

My two cents-first, I believe that all of us think that we are to abide in God's word and keep His commandments. Second, I think that those who hold to the idea of "eternal security" are often mis-labeled as those who say we can live however we want, act as we want, and still be saved. I see very few people believe we have a license to sin-and the ones that do are the ones who desire to have such license!

Bobby does not advocate disobedience-he does not believe one can "work" or "earn" his salvation by keeping commandments. I don't believe that either. Barnsweb believes we must keep the commandments of God or we aren't His. I agree, as I'm sure Bobby does. The difference may lie in "was he saved to begin with" or "he fell away".

The BIGGEST factor is this: "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a NEW HEART and put a NEW SPIRIT within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgements and do them." Ezekiel 36:25-27.

It all starts with a new heart and a new spirit. Without these, all the human effort and obedience in the world don't matter.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#156
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never advocated disobedience, but God sent us a savior who is familiar with mans condition. He was not sent to gather perfect people, he was sent to save sinners.
As long as we disagree on the change of covenants we will continue have trouble resolving our differences.
We have, NEW Covenant, not a RENEWED Covenant. Paul is a very real apostle sent to gentiles with a message that closes the door to the old covenant (it's rules and regulations) and opens the door for ALL people to be saved. If you don't believe that, then you should be keeping all 613 OT laws including animal sacrifices.
I suspect that you have forgotten that Abraham was justified by faith before any law was introduced and before he offered his own son as a sacrifice.
Even that "heathen false apostle" Paul said: So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Gal 3 is titled-
Faith or Works of the Law
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not!
**For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.**
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
You haven't advocated disobedience, but you haven't advocated the teachings of Jesus that I've been quoting either!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#157
May 20, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
You haven't advocated disobedience, but you haven't advocated the teachings of Jesus that I've been quoting either!
Our differences are fully based on law verses grace. I choose grace, you choose law. That is why you seldom agree with Paul.

I have learned through the years that most arguments come from people trying to religiously keep a particular law are set of laws and the next person has a different opposing laws they want to keep. There is more fights within the church over which laws/rules apply and which ones do not. I try not to engage that because there is no winner and no unity that comes from it.

Law keeping leads to issues like singing in church, which church is the true church, which is the correct way to do water baptism, is communion done on saturday or sunday, do we use unleavened bread, must it be done every week. The list is endless which is why Grace is so important. You see, even though I strongly disagree with you on some issues I still offer my hand to you in fellowship. Not because I believe you are right but because I believe you have genuinely accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

For instance I had communion with a group of people yesterday who used store bought bread and welches grape juice. I was uncomfortable with not having un-leavened bread but because of the grace of God and my belief that it is a symbol rather than sacrament I said nothing. Mike the Catholic could not take communion with any of us...

Here is the argument from a guy closer to your position than mine:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume3...

If we can't find unity through the cross we may not ever find it.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#158
May 20, 2013
 
Even the Jews were jealous of the freedom the gentiles had in Christ.

Speaking of the Jews Paul said this: Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#159
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I see you are now using Jesus words spoken while he was yet alive but written in the new testament. What I can tell you is that Jesus was born under the old covenant and died under the old covenant. Most of what he spoke was basically to those under the old covenant. The covenant did not change until his death.
The law was for the Jews not the gentiles. Jesus was a Jew but yet he died for the sins of both Jew and gentile.
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith".
Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
About the only defense I see that you may have is is to disqualify Paul as an Apostle.
What was passing away in Hebrews was the ordinances of the Aaronic priesthood related to sin offerings. No argument on that point, as to disavow is to deny the sufficiency of His work for us that God gave Him to do.

Paul was a 'sent one' by Christ Jesus, but was not in the same category of the 'twelve'- not even the 120 qualified as Apostles.

In light of the humility and truthfulness of Jesus Christ, who gave credit to the Father as the source of all His doctrine and teachings and power by which He confirmed the words He spoke - I'm surprised more people don't cringe when the written record has Paul saying 'my gospel' and not the Gospel of God.

You deny the teachings of Jesus that I've posted and reminded you of - not once, not twice, but at least dozens of times. Don't be surprised if I no longer reply to your denials of His word to favor a few verses from Paul.

According to the sermon on the mount and the great commission - the words He spoke from the beginning are still as needful as the day first spoken - else why did He tell the apostles to make disciples of Him and teach them whatever He had commanded them first?

You allow yourself to be deluded because you can't face the truth of Jesus Christ - the Testimony and faith of Jesus Christ? Seems so to me - I can't think of any other reason by now...

Don't believe it because I said so - but because He said so, as well as the Father:'Hear Him'.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#160
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Our differences are fully based on law verses grace. I choose grace, you choose law. That is why you seldom agree with Paul.
I have learned through the years that most arguments come from people trying to religiously keep a particular law are set of laws and the next person has a different opposing laws they want to keep. There is more fights within the church over which laws/rules apply and which ones do not. I try not to engage that because there is no winner and no unity that comes from it.
Law keeping leads to issues like singing in church, which church is the true church, which is the correct way to do water baptism, is communion done on saturday or sunday, do we use unleavened bread, must it be done every week. The list is endless which is why Grace is so important. You see, even though I strongly disagree with you on some issues I still offer my hand to you in fellowship. Not because I believe you are right but because I believe you have genuinely accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
For instance I had communion with a group of people yesterday who used store bought bread and welches grape juice. I was uncomfortable with not having un-leavened bread but because of the grace of God and my belief that it is a symbol rather than sacrament I said nothing. Mike the Catholic could not take communion with any of us...
Here is the argument from a guy closer to your position than mine:
http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume3...
If we can't find unity through the cross we may not ever find it.
Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ - that's what I accept.

Yet you love to imagine I believe in salvation by keeping the law, but this is simply not true, and if you did know the gospel as taught by Jesus = you would know better.

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