Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#181 May 21, 2013
Not much - it's the standard viewpoint that fails to reach any accord with what Jesus, Moses, the Psalms or Prophets had to say good about the commandments of God and their blessings to the lives of those who appreciate them....
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#182 May 22, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Not much - it's the standard viewpoint that fails to reach any accord with what Jesus, Moses, the Psalms or Prophets had to say good about the commandments of God and their blessings to the lives of those who appreciate them....
I held many of the same views as you do, I even studied with a hebrew roots style teacher on tv (bought his study matierals) that held similar views as you do. I began to feel so enlightened but after a couple of years I felt empty because i could see that it was not changing my life. I was no more righteous than before I started but I did feel empowered.

Later I started reading books written by Perry Stone a church of God preacher. I learned a lot of good things from various teachers, that I still value. But I was not more righteous because of it. Legal values set the boundaries of what is good and what is bad but they did not make me more righteous, they made me more aware of my sin.

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#183 May 22, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>I held many of the same views as you do, I even studied with a hebrew roots style teacher on tv (bought his study matierals) that held similar views as you do. I began to feel so enlightened but after a couple of years I felt empty because i could see that it was not changing my life. I was no more righteous than before I started but I did feel empowered.

Later I started reading books written by Perry Stone a church of God preacher. I learned a lot of good things from various teachers, that I still value. But I was not more righteous because of it. Legal values set the boundaries of what is good and what is bad but they did not make me more righteous, they made me more aware of my sin.
Did your wife get a miracle yet?

Is she healed?

If not why not?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#184 May 22, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I held many of the same views as you do, I even studied with a hebrew roots style teacher on tv (bought his study matierals) that held similar views as you do. I began to feel so enlightened but after a couple of years I felt empty because i could see that it was not changing my life. I was no more righteous than before I started but I did feel empowered.
Later I started reading books written by Perry Stone a church of God preacher. I learned a lot of good things from various teachers, that I still value. But I was not more righteous because of it. Legal values set the boundaries of what is good and what is bad but they did not make me more righteous, they made me more aware of my sin.
? We allow God to write Torah (instructions in righteousness) and the teachings of Jesus on our hearts.. As we do the will of God as taught by the Son, isn't this the purpose and fulfillment of the very gospel itself? And Peter also affirms this at the end of Acts 3, that Jesus came to turn from our iniquities (lawlessness)?

But it isn't keeping His word because it's a law and we earn it - and it never has been so. It has always been obedience to the Father as the Son of Man told and exampled for us - we are to be about becoming like Him - we are to keep His word from love and faith and hope and trust - not just because God put a 'speed limit' sign up on what we can or can't do.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#185 May 22, 2013
HEATH - 72 wrote:
<quoted text>
Did your wife get a miracle yet?
Is she healed?
If not why not?
Just wondering the point of dogging Bobby on this? If such things reside in the will and purpose of God, I don't think such a personal matter for Bobby is any public business of you or me - let a lone a matter to taunt him about. If you have something to say in the discussion, maybe there's a better way to make your point? Just sayin'....
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#186 May 22, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Just wondering the point of dogging Bobby on this? If such things reside in the will and purpose of God, I don't think such a personal matter for Bobby is any public business of you or me - let a lone a matter to taunt him about. If you have something to say in the discussion, maybe there's a better way to make your point? Just sayin'....
AMEN!
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#187 May 22, 2013
Not to interrupt your conversation, but wanted to add that I also have watched and read some of Perry Stone's work on OT things. Very interesting and I have learned from him. Like many, he goes off too far from scripture with some of his points.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#188 May 22, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
? We allow God to write Torah (instructions in righteousness) and the teachings of Jesus on our hearts.. As we do the will of God as taught by the Son, isn't this the purpose and fulfillment of the very gospel itself? And Peter also affirms this at the end of Acts 3, that Jesus came to turn from our iniquities (lawlessness)?
But it isn't keeping His word because it's a law and we earn it - and it never has been so. It has always been obedience to the Father as the Son of Man told and exampled for us - we are to be about becoming like Him - we are to keep His word from love and faith and hope and trust - not just because God put a 'speed limit' sign up on what we can or can't do.
I see your point. Here is my understanding: The law is abolished and "done away only for those in Christ.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says,*it says to those who are under the law*, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

As long as there are people outside of Christ the law is still their schoolmaster. As long as the earth exist until Christ comes The law of Moses will exist for it's intended purpose not to redeem but to teach.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#189 May 22, 2013
HEATH - 72 wrote:
<quoted text>
Did your wife get a miracle yet?
Is she healed?
If not why not?
I will never forget when my father in law was in danger of dying. My mother in law called in the coc preacher to pray for him. His pray started off like this: "Father let us have faith in brother Mullins that he might get well". He died that night. I am not saying that if the prayer was different he would have lived, it may have just been his time to go. But I don't think praying with doubt and unbelief is the way to do it. I had already prayed for him and my prayer was answered.
jaybird

United States

#190 May 22, 2013
HEATH - 72 wrote:
<quoted text>
Did your wife get a miracle yet?
Is she healed?
If not why not?
One can see why people leave the church of Christ. This is not love at all but a comment laced with pure hatred.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#191 May 22, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I see your point. Here is my understanding: The law is abolished and "done away only for those in Christ.
19 Now we know that whatever the law says,*it says to those who are under the law*, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
As long as there are people outside of Christ the law is still their schoolmaster. As long as the earth exist until Christ comes The law of Moses will exist for it's intended purpose not to redeem but to teach.
Re read that longest Psalm and see how much David appreciated the word of God, and all he had was the OT - but grace is also found with the Torah. What was new was the example from Jesus of what love is and does that mankind had never seen before or sinse.

The teachings of Jesus are the Torah elevated to levels unknown to men until Jesus exampled it and taught it in fullness. We shouldn't be under the law, as in Christ, we are at a higher level, but certainly not thinking to be lessor.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#192 May 22, 2013
Perhaps we've taken this law vs. grace idea as far as we can. Just like all else, we go constantly back and forth. Perhaps we should simplify some thoughts.

Are we under "law" today? Yes. It is not Moses' law, but it is the law of Christ, the perfect law of liberty. But here's the problem-we see the word law, so we treat our scriptures as law, even when not intended to be. We aren't to read the gospels, Acts, the epistles, and Revelation like they're Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Christ's law isn't a list of "do's and don't". How do we fulfill the law of Christ-by obeying His commands? No-by bearing each others burdens, and by loving God with our entire being, and our neighbors as ourselves. In a nutshell, that's fulfilling the law of Christ. It's NOT about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.

Keeping the commandments of God are good and essential though. But how do we do that? The passage from Ezekiel I quoted shows us. We have to have a new heart and Spirit first, then as we walk in the Spirit we won't have to keep the commandments from our own efforts-it will come from a natural flowing out of our hearts.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#193 May 23, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Perhaps we've taken this law vs. grace idea as far as we can. Just like all else, we go constantly back and forth. Perhaps we should simplify some thoughts.
Are we under "law" today? Yes. It is not Moses' law, but it is the law of Christ, the perfect law of liberty. But here's the problem-we see the word law, so we treat our scriptures as law, even when not intended to be. We aren't to read the gospels, Acts, the epistles, and Revelation like they're Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Christ's law isn't a list of "do's and don't". How do we fulfill the law of Christ-by obeying His commands? No-by bearing each others burdens, and by loving God with our entire being, and our neighbors as ourselves. In a nutshell, that's fulfilling the law of Christ. It's NOT about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.
Keeping the commandments of God are good and essential though. But how do we do that? The passage from Ezekiel I quoted shows us. We have to have a new heart and Spirit first, then as we walk in the Spirit we won't have to keep the commandments from our own efforts-it will come from a natural flowing out of our hearts.
Spot on! I totally agree.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#194 May 23, 2013
jaybird wrote:
<quoted text>
One can see why people leave the church of Christ. This is not love at all but a comment laced with pure hatred.
Yeah, its men like him who are turning people away. He doesnt jump here for real talk- just hit and run.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#195 May 23, 2013
I'll just re-tell that Jesus said to not think that He came to set aside or destroy the commandments of God or any of the Torah - not even a letter of it. He came to make good on the promise to fallen man that God had given from the beginning.

So if Jesus had to fulfill what the word said of Him, and there are still unfulfilled Scripture, they are eternally true, as if He did away with them, there would be no need for Him to keep them - for or against us! No, as those Scriptures say, God upholds His word higher than His name....

And if is no respecter of persons, wouldn't it be having double standards for those in Christ and those not in Christ? Seems a grevious error to think it not true what Jesus said about the Set-Apart Scriptures.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#196 May 23, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Perhaps we've taken this law vs. grace idea as far as we can. Just like all else, we go constantly back and forth. Perhaps we should simplify some thoughts.
Are we under "law" today? Yes. It is not Moses' law, but it is the law of Christ, the perfect law of liberty. But here's the problem-we see the word law, so we treat our scriptures as law, even when not intended to be. We aren't to read the gospels, Acts, the epistles, and Revelation like they're Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Christ's law isn't a list of "do's and don't". How do we fulfill the law of Christ-by obeying His commands? No-by bearing each others burdens, and by loving God with our entire being, and our neighbors as ourselves. In a nutshell, that's fulfilling the law of Christ. It's NOT about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.
Keeping the commandments of God are good and essential though. But how do we do that? The passage from Ezekiel I quoted shows us. We have to have a new heart and Spirit first, then as we walk in the Spirit we won't have to keep the commandments from our own efforts-it will come from a natural flowing out of our hearts.
This seems to be quite the over-simplification of the facts.'It's not about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.' Did Jesus tell the apostles to teach the disciples of Him they make to keep all (whatsoever) the commandments He had given to them first? Yes, He did. Those commandments were given in the words of Jesus CHirst recorded by the apostles - the eyewitnesses of His teachings who were Holy Spirit inspired to tell us what they were - Matthew and John. Matthew gives the greatest number of those teachings, and John gives us the greatest account of the Lord's teaching the need to abide in them as disciples indeed. So we have the word, we repent to do it (the will of God as told by the Son) and upon our union with the promise of God (Acts 2:38), He gives us the Spirit which aids us in being sanctified by His word. "Sanctify them by the truth - Thy word is truth." We must do our work of believing, and if we don't believe what He taught is the truth - well, that's where we find Acts 3:22,23, that whoever will not hear that Prophet will be cut off from the brethren! God said it through Moses first, and confirmed whose words we are to hear by the same person who announced the promise of God to all future generations till the end.

Sounds like denial of the need to keep His commandments is to seal ones fate to be cut off from the brethren.

If not - how so? And do be upright and straight with His word, else you speak to the wind.

Even Paul said 'Let the word of Christ dwell richly in you.'
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#197 May 23, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Perhaps we've taken this law vs. grace idea as far as we can. Just like all else, we go constantly back and forth. Perhaps we should simplify some thoughts.
Are we under "law" today? Yes. It is not Moses' law, but it is the law of Christ, the perfect law of liberty. But here's the problem-we see the word law, so we treat our scriptures as law, even when not intended to be. We aren't to read the gospels, Acts, the epistles, and Revelation like they're Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Christ's law isn't a list of "do's and don't". How do we fulfill the law of Christ-by obeying His commands? No-by bearing each others burdens, and by loving God with our entire being, and our neighbors as ourselves. In a nutshell, that's fulfilling the law of Christ. It's NOT about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.
Keeping the commandments of God are good and essential though. But how do we do that? The passage from Ezekiel I quoted shows us. We have to have a new heart and Spirit first, then as we walk in the Spirit we won't have to keep the commandments from our own efforts-it will come from a natural flowing out of our hearts.
The first houses I ever built was in an unincorporated community. We could basically build a shack as long as we put in a county inspected septic system. I wanted our house to be good but the city codes were to much for me to understand. So when I hired my subcontractors I requested they do their part according to the city codes even though I was not required to. The main difference is that I did not have to submit to inspections and pay the fees.

Later I started building within the city and things got rather hectic. There was so many things I did not understand and still don't but my crews covered for me in their areas of expertise. Often times the regulation would change and the city inspectors did not always know what they were doing.

My point is that houses get built better according the building codes but that men come along and increase the burden and cost with un-necessary regulation. Our government is like that, it gets in the way of common sense. Often times here are more inspectors than laborers.

I see biblical law keepers doing the same thing, they use the bible as a tool in such a way as to place un- necessary burdens on common men even though their intent may be good.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#198 May 23, 2013
Sometimes we need the freedom to fail. If we learn from our mistakes we become stronger.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#199 May 23, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
This seems to be quite the over-simplification of the facts.'It's not about keeping commandments or finding the right pattern.' Did Jesus tell the apostles to teach the disciples of Him they make to keep all (whatsoever) the commandments He had given to them first? Yes, He did. Those commandments were given in the words of Jesus CHirst recorded by the apostles - the eyewitnesses of His teachings who were Holy Spirit inspired to tell us what they were - Matthew and John. Matthew gives the greatest number of those teachings, and John gives us the greatest account of the Lord's teaching the need to abide in them as disciples indeed. So we have the word, we repent to do it (the will of God as told by the Son) and upon our union with the promise of God (Acts 2:38), He gives us the Spirit which aids us in being sanctified by His word. "Sanctify them by the truth - Thy word is truth." We must do our work of believing, and if we don't believe what He taught is the truth - well, that's where we find Acts 3:22,23, that whoever will not hear that Prophet will be cut off from the brethren! God said it through Moses first, and confirmed whose words we are to hear by the same person who announced the promise of God to all future generations till the end.
Sounds like denial of the need to keep His commandments is to seal ones fate to be cut off from the brethren.
If not - how so? And do be upright and straight with His word, else you speak to the wind.
Even Paul said 'Let the word of Christ dwell richly in you.'
The key Barnsweb is the Spirit of Christ. I am not making light of keeping His commandments-after all, Jesus said that's the mark of whether or not we all love Him. But all the way back in Ezekiel's day, God was promising that He would put a new heart and a new Spirit within man, and the purpose was to "cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them". OT Israel done a very poor job overall of keeping His statutes. How are we, under our own power, going to do any better?

*It's not "under our own power". Jesus told Nicodemus "unless a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Unless He be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Regardless of views on baptism, we all believe that we are new creatures when we are in Christ, and receive His Spirit, whom the Master said will be in us.

The simple truth is that in order to walk in His statutes and commands, we must first have that new heart and new Spirit, which we receive in the manner you correctly point out. With that new Spirit we can then go about keeping His commandments-not in our own power, but in His that is within us. And we will do so not out of obligation, or necessity of keeping a commandment, but instead out of a true love for God and His statutes. We will have the proper motivation. New heart and new Spirit required.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#200 May 23, 2013
And BW, as you point out Acts 3:22-23 to us, I agree-those who do not hear that prophet will be cut off. But the forgotten key for many is in vs. 19 there. Many miss the point or disregard or misinterpret, but "the times of refreshing" coming from the Lord is, in my opinion, referring to the Holy Spirit.

You correctly point out, as some of us also do, that the gift of the Spirit in Acts 2:38 is as much a promise of God as remission of sins. How so many can disregard the Holy Spirit is a mystery to me. But, forgiveness and the Spirit are a package deal that are indispensable for the child of God. We must be forgiven-but without His Spirit we do not belong to Him, nor do we have the power to walk in Him as He desires us to.

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