Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#342 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Having said that, I do not believe that we should ever pray to angels or men even if they are alive in heaven-the scripture backs that up. Why would would we do that when God hears our prayers, in other words why not go straight to him through our mediator Christ Jesus.
So you don't ask people to pray for you? Every Christian between 32 AD and 1520 believe people in heaven are alive and they can pray for us just like you can pray for your wife.

They didn't believe in SS. They believed what the Apostles taught the Church.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#343 Jun 17, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
So you don't ask people to pray for you? Every Christian between 32 AD and 1520 believe people in heaven are alive and they can pray for us just like you can pray for your wife.
They didn't believe in SS. They believed what the Apostles taught the Church.
I do not pray to saints in heaven or angels-so in that sense the answer is no. When I ask someone alive on earth to pray for me-that is not praying to them, we are both in this realm walking the earth together.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#344 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not pray to saints in heaven or angels-so in that sense the answer is no. When I ask someone alive on earth to pray for me-that is not praying to them, we are both in this realm walking the earth together.
Finally you admit that you ask people to mediate for you.

So you don't believe that verse about only one mediator that you use to argue with the original Christians. That is hypocritical isn't it?

We don't ask Blessed Mary and the Saints to answer our prayers.

"I ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God."

I would rather have Blessed Mary prayer for me than anybody on earth.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#345 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#346 Jun 17, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Finally you admit that you ask people to mediate for you.
So you don't believe that verse about only one mediator that you use to argue with the original Christians. That is hypocritical isn't it?
We don't ask Blessed Mary and the Saints to answer our prayers.
"I ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God."
I would rather have Blessed Mary prayer for me than anybody on earth.
You are missing that Jesus is our mediator. You see we have to go to scripture for that. "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"

When asking others here in this life to pray with us or for us we are seeking the Father through Jesus our only mediator. That is very different from us praying directly to an angel or a dead saint, even though they may be alive in heaven they can never be someone we pray to. You act like Jesus cannot hear our prayers but Mary can. That is dumb stuff.

The only reason I can see as to why cathoilcs pray to mary is because they know they are still sinners and that God cannot or will not hear a sinners prayer. Even some in the coc believe that-it's hogwash.

That explains why you cannot accept the sinners prayer as we read in luke.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Catholics cannot accept this because it does not fit their tradition.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#347 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby: "God cannot or will not hear a sinners prayer"

Are you serious about this??????????

Are you sinless?

All Protestants are "saved" by the "sinners prayer" (which is not in the Bible.)

The word pray means to ask. We ask people, saints and Mary to pray for us.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#348 Jun 17, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Bobby: "God cannot or will not hear a sinners prayer"
Are you serious about this??????????
Are you sinless?
All Protestants are "saved" by the "sinners prayer" (which is not in the Bible.)
The word pray means to ask. We ask people, saints and Mary to pray for us.
I am absolutely serious about it. In you own vernacular you say you are never sure you are saved. Man does not need anyone to stand between us and the Father but Jesus.

You are right that none of us are sinless but we do not need purgatory so we can do enough penance to please God. Our God is satisfied with the work of Christ whose blood was shed on our behalf. He will never go back to the cross and shed his blood over and over each time we sin. Jesus last words while on the cross was "it is finished".

Our forgiveness is once for all time, God said he would remember our sins no more. We can ask for forgiveness and know that he hears us. God’s forgiveness is based upon His righteousness, not ours.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

No tradition necessary, nor is it approved by God.

Now, Who is authorized to to open that seal?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#349 Jun 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
Not quite sure how Tu Es Petrus in Polish qualifies as spam but it would be real nice if someone would post a link to a 500 year old CofC hymn.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#350 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am absolutely serious about it. In you own vernacular you say you are never sure you are saved. Man does not need anyone to stand between us and the Father but Jesus.
You are right that none of us are sinless but we do not need purgatory so we can do enough penance to please God. Our God is satisfied with the work of Christ whose blood was shed on our behalf. He will never go back to the cross and shed his blood over and over each time we sin. Jesus last words while on the cross was "it is finished".
Our forgiveness is once for all time, God said he would remember our sins no more. We can ask for forgiveness and know that he hears us. God’s forgiveness is based upon His righteousness, not ours.
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
No tradition necessary, nor is it approved by God.
Now, Who is authorized to to open that seal?
A seal is a mark, not envelope.

The false doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it's origins date back to 16th century Calvinism.  The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot.  He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others.  Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven?  According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.

Another good example is Lucifer (Satan)- abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not "saved" when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride.  This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.

In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation.  They think they can't sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins.  This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.

How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn't (1 Corinthians 9:27)?

Salvation is not a "one time" event, but an ongoing process until "the end" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).

          
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#351 Jun 17, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
A seal is a mark, not envelope.
The false doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it's origins date back to 16th century Calvinism.  The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot.  He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others.  Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven?  According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.
Another good example is Lucifer (Satan)- abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not "saved" when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride.  This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.
In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation.  They think they can't sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins.  This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.
How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn't (1 Corinthians 9:27)?
Salvation is not a "one time" event, but an ongoing process until "the end" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).
          
That is catholic talk. You know, that doctrine of not having enough good works to get them to heaven, so they created purgatory to give them a second chance.

That business you posted about satan is baloney. Satan was created in a pure state above mankind, in the very presence of God-in heaven and sinned where there was no sin-the five I will's. Can satan go to purgatory and do enough penance to be saved? If not why not? Don't give me that stuff about mortal sin. That is more catholic crap.“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Any sin will send you to hell without a blood sacrifice pleasing to God-the cross.

I know of no one who thinks he cannot sin after becoming a christian. Sin gets in the way of everyday life and causes unnecessary pain and damaged relationships. But everyone who is in Christ has forgiveness based on the cross not on his penance/his own atonement. The only atonement for sin is the debt we owe being paid by Christ Jesus who paid a debt he did not owe because we owed a debt we cannot pay.

If salvation depends on us we of all people have no hope-unless hell freezes over. This is why catholics feel so hopeless-do penance they say, work work work your way up the ladder through purgatory-never knowing if they will ever actually get there.

Scripture not tradition!
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#352 Jun 17, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
All Protestants are "saved" by the "sinners prayer" (which is not in the Bible.)
If you consider the churches of Christ/Christian Churches a "protestant denomination" you are wrong on this point Mike. Their (our) beliefs on salvation are more similar than Baptist/Methodist/other "prots".
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#353 Jun 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Not quite sure how Tu Es Petrus in Polish qualifies as spam but it would be real nice if someone would post a link to a 500 year old CofC hymn.
I think everything you post gets automatically judged as spam.
500 year old coc hymn? Curious to see that myself.
The hymn question-singing hymns from them awful denominations actually is a legit question the coc should answer.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#354 Jun 18, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly living in heaven.
Why do you have a such a hard problem of believing that people are alive in heaven? It is called eternal life.
And yes Ps deal with angels. Don't you believe there are angels alive in heaven.
You bring up some thoughtful points, and yes, I believe our spirit lives after the body dies, be it in hades or paradise, awaiting the great judgment day of God, when He gives each man according to his works. But belief that the departed are still alive is quite different than who Jesus said we are to pray to. You know the 'Lord's prayer'- and who did Jesus say to pray to? Isn't that the issue if we are to 'abide' in His word/teaching?

Where does Jesus say to pray to anyone other than the Father or Himself?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#355 Jun 18, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
If you consider the churches of Christ/Christian Churches a "protestant denomination" you are wrong on this point Mike. Their (our) beliefs on salvation are more similar than Baptist/Methodist/other "prots".
Of course it is. Your founder was a Methodist, baptized by a Baptist, and the COC was started just 200 years ago.

It is a non Catholic christian community. It does have the courage to stand up and say this is the way to heaven and no other communitye will.

I don't understand how anybody can stay with a community who thinks that their way is not the true way.

No other community will say that. But the COC has a very hard problem with History. To believe that they have to believe God was absent for 1700 years in the world because there are no COC members before 1800.

Iglesia ni Cristo has just as valid an argument of the being the true church as COC. I have heard them debate before.

Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#356 Jun 18, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
You bring up some thoughtful points, and yes, I believe our spirit lives after the body dies, be it in hades or paradise, awaiting the great judgment day of God, when He gives each man according to his works. But belief that the departed are still alive is quite different than who Jesus said we are to pray to. You know the 'Lord's prayer'- and who did Jesus say to pray to? Isn't that the issue if we are to 'abide' in His word/teaching?
Where does Jesus say to pray to anyone other than the Father or Himself?
Why don't you say the Lord's prayer in Church? It is pretty important since Jesus told us to do that.

Bible trivia. Jesus himself never told anybody to pray to him.

Pray means ask. "We ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for us to the Lord our God" at every mass.

The Hail Mary is just quoting bible verses.

Either you truly don't know what we do and were taught by your parents and preaches, or you are intentionally misleading.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#357 Jun 18, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That is catholic talk. You know, that doctrine of not having enough good works to get them to heaven, so they created purgatory to give them a second chance.
That business you posted about satan is baloney. Satan was created in a pure state above mankind, in the very presence of God-in heaven and sinned where there was no sin-the five I will's. Can satan go to purgatory and do enough penance to be saved? If not why not? Don't give me that stuff about mortal sin. That is more catholic crap.“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Any sin will send you to hell without a blood sacrifice pleasing to God-the cross.
I know of no one who thinks he cannot sin after becoming a christian. Sin gets in the way of everyday life and causes unnecessary pain and damaged relationships. But everyone who is in Christ has forgiveness based on the cross not on his penance/his own atonement. The only atonement for sin is the debt we owe being paid by Christ Jesus who paid a debt he did not owe because we owed a debt we cannot pay.
If salvation depends on us we of all people have no hope-unless hell freezes over. This is why catholics feel so hopeless-do penance they say, work work work your way up the ladder through purgatory-never knowing if they will ever actually get there.
Scripture not tradition!
So Judas is in heaven right?

One can hand over Jesus to be killed and it doesn't matter.

He probably killed himself to beat Jesus to heaven.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#358 Jun 18, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
So Judas is in heaven right?
One can hand over Jesus to be killed and it doesn't matter.
He probably killed himself to beat Jesus to heaven.
This fits your tradition not scripture.If your pope says atheist have a chance then I guess that gives Judas a shoe in already-as soon as he gets through purgatory. You use catholic double talk. I am ex-coc and you are wrong about Campbell, he was a Scottish Presbyterian not methodist. You hardly get anything right, no telling how much catholic stuff you have twisted. I expect to see more coc in heaven than catholics-work work work and then more work work work in purgatory and if your works outweigh your sin, you might get a back row seat in heaven.

"And if (salvation)by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

You see Mike you will never have enough good works. This is the root of the catholic lie.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#359 Jun 18, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Bobby: "God cannot or will not hear a sinners prayer"
Are you serious about this??????????
Are you sinless?
All Protestants are "saved" by the "sinners prayer" (which is not in the Bible.)
The word pray means to ask. We ask people, saints and Mary to pray for us.
God hears all prayers.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#360 Jun 18, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
A seal is a mark, not envelope.
The false doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it's origins date back to 16th century Calvinism.  The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot.  He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others.  Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven?  According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.
Another good example is Lucifer (Satan)- abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not "saved" when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride.  This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.
In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation.  They think they can't sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins.  This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.
How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn't (1 Corinthians 9:27)?
Salvation is not a "one time" event, but an ongoing process until "the end" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).
          
Is Lucifer and Satan the same

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#361 Jun 18, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Is Lucifer and Satan the same
Lucifer

(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4

from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Lucifer and Satan are not the same except in popular imagery, fiction and tradition. I have a cat named Lucifer and another named Vesper for the morning and evening star.

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