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Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#1 May 14, 2013
The CC, based on Bible, teaches Jesus left Peter in Church of the Church. The Bible proves the Primacy of Peter in many places.

Protestants will use 2 verses, out of context, to refute the many, many, things that support this.

One is where Paul 'rebukes' Peter for sitting at the wrong table. There is nothing doctrinal about this but Peter deserved it. His politics were not good in that instance.

The other one is when Jesus says get behind me Satan. He told his closest friends that he “must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.”

Peter, being the protector (remember, he attacked the guard when Jesus was arrested), promised to protect the Lord “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.” But Peter was thinking in earthly terms, and this is why Jesus tells him “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me.” Jesus, being the son of God, wants always to do God’s will. This is what he was explaining to his apostles-what God’s will for him was.

When all the Apostles are listed together, every time but one I think lists Peter first and Judas last.

The moment Jesus met Peter he named him Cephas which means Rock in Aramaic.

Peter is the only man in the world to walk on water.

Jesus would often preach from only Peter's boat which represents the Church.

More to come.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#2 May 14, 2013
Catholics were and are still gentiles not Jews. Peter and the other apostles were sent to basically to the Jews. Paul was the only apostle that was sent specifically to the gentiles and accepted as such by Peter.

Just using common sense, if the catholic position of passing on the apostleship is true, then it should have come through Paul not Peter.

But, of course we have no evidence that there are any apostles other than the ones listed and named in the new testament.
William

Birmingham, AL

#3 May 14, 2013
Paul confirms the primacy of Peter to the folks at Rome.

Check out Romans 17.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#4 May 14, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
The CC, based on Bible, teaches Jesus left Peter in Church of the Church. The Bible proves the Primacy of Peter in many places.
Protestants will use 2 verses, out of context, to refute the many, many, things that support this.
One is where Paul 'rebukes' Peter for sitting at the wrong table. There is nothing doctrinal about this but Peter deserved it. His politics were not good in that instance.
The other one is when Jesus says get behind me Satan. He told his closest friends that he “must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.”
Peter, being the protector (remember, he attacked the guard when Jesus was arrested), promised to protect the Lord “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.” But Peter was thinking in earthly terms, and this is why Jesus tells him “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me.” Jesus, being the son of God, wants always to do God’s will. This is what he was explaining to his apostles-what God’s will for him was.
When all the Apostles are listed together, every time but one I think lists Peter first and Judas last.
The moment Jesus met Peter he named him Cephas which means Rock in Aramaic.
Peter is the only man in the world to walk on water.
Jesus would often preach from only Peter's boat which represents the Church.
More to come.
The two verses you claim prots use to reject the primacy of Peter has not been used at all to my personal knowledge, nor does it have any effect on this "doctrine". This teaching is spurious for several reasons:

*"Primacy" of Peter or anyone else is Ashdod language to begin with. No such documentation in scripture.

*Peter may be listed first in lists of the twelve, but this does not prove he is "superior" to the other apostles. In fact, he was one of four in Jesus' inner circle with Andrew, James, and John (the disciple whom Jesus loved).

*The authority that Peter was given in Matthew 16 was given to all of the twelve in Matthew 18.

*Galatians 2 tells us that James, Cephas, and John (in this very order) seemed to be pillars. James is mentioned first, and John is in a co-equal status as well.

*In Acts 15 it is James, not Peter, who makes the final declaration of the Jerusalem council.

*In Acts 12, James the brother of John is put to death first, then Peter is arrested.

*In Acts 8, the apostles sent Peter and John to Samaria. It didn't say Peter volunteered to go, he was sent. Was he ordered by "underlings"? Apparently, because the word sent in Greek is apostello (apostle); official or authoritative sending. The other apostles had the same authority Peter did, and he submitted to it.

*Peter ordered Cornelius not to worship him, as he was just a man.

*Only one episode I could find of Jesus preaching from Peter's boat-Luke 5. James and John also went along with Jesus at this point.

*James and John also witnessed the transfiguration.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#5 May 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
The two verses you claim prots use to reject the primacy of Peter has not been used at all to my personal knowledge, nor does it have any effect on this "doctrine". This teaching is spurious for several reasons:
*"Primacy" of Peter or anyone else is Ashdod language to begin with. No such documentation in scripture.
*Peter may be listed first in lists of the twelve, but this does not prove he is "superior" to the other apostles. In fact, he was one of four in Jesus' inner circle with Andrew, James, and John (the disciple whom Jesus loved).
*The authority that Peter was given in Matthew 16 was given to all of the twelve in Matthew 18.
*Galatians 2 tells us that James, Cephas, and John (in this very order) seemed to be pillars. James is mentioned first, and John is in a co-equal status as well.
*In Acts 15 it is James, not Peter, who makes the final declaration of the Jerusalem council.
*In Acts 12, James the brother of John is put to death first, then Peter is arrested.
*In Acts 8, the apostles sent Peter and John to Samaria. It didn't say Peter volunteered to go, he was sent. Was he ordered by "underlings"? Apparently, because the word sent in Greek is apostello (apostle); official or authoritative sending. The other apostles had the same authority Peter did, and he submitted to it.
*Peter ordered Cornelius not to worship him, as he was just a man.
*Only one episode I could find of Jesus preaching from Peter's boat-Luke 5. James and John also went along with Jesus at this point.
*James and John also witnessed the transfiguration.
You did your homework on this. Mike just reads his catholic traditional sources. If he were to stay with the bible he would be better off.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#6 May 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You did your homework on this. Mike just reads his catholic traditional sources. If he were to stay with the bible he would be better off.
Agree Bobby. Bad thing is, my homework was just going through the Bible. That's why you're right, we should stick with the scriptures.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#7 May 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You did your homework on this. Mike just reads his catholic traditional sources. If he were to stay with the bible he would be better off.
Bobby: Are these familiar with you?

* John runs ahead of Peter to the empty tomb but does not enter. He waits for Peter to enter first.

*Luke 24:34 risen Christ first appeared to Peter

*Mk 16:7 Angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter

*Lke 9:32 and Mk 16:7 Peter and his companions.

*Gal 1:18 after conversion Paul visits chief Apostle

*Lk 22:32 Peters faith will strengthen his brethren

* Acts 1: 13-26 Led the Apostles to replace Judas ( apostolic succession too)

* Acts 2:14 led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost

* Acts 2:41 received the first converts

* Acts 3:6-7 performed the first miracle after Pentecost

* MT 16:18 Upon this Rock I will build my Church

* MT 16:18 give you the Keys to the Kingdom

*JN 21:17 given Christ's flock as Chief Shepherd

*Acts 5:1-11 inflicted first punishment, Anaias and Sphira dropped dead for lying to him.

*Acts 8:21 excommunicated first heretic; Simon Magnus

*Acts 10:44-46 received revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church

*Acts 15;7 led first Council of Jerusalem

* Acts 15:19 pronounces his first dogmatic decision

* Mt 18:21, Mk8:29, Lk 8:45, 12:41, Jn 6:69 Peter Spoke for the Apostles.

Peter's name appears 195 time in the Bible, more tan all the rest put together.
William

Birmingham, AL

#8 May 15, 2013
Mike, what do you think Peter had to say when Paul told him about this?

Romans 2:16

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What is Paul's gospel, according to the RCC?
William

Birmingham, AL

#9 May 15, 2013
Or this one?

2 Timothy 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel.

According to Paul's gospel? I thought you said that there were only four gospels found in the Bible?
William

Birmingham, AL

#10 May 15, 2013
It shows up again. What on earth is going on here? Did Peter know that Paul was given a gospel, directly from the resurrected Christ? Does the RCC know about this?

Romans 16:25

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

I have not heard the first thing out of any Catholic about "the revelation of the mystery, kept secret since the world began". But to be fair, I haven't heard it spoken of by any other denomination either.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#11 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby: Are these familiar with you?
* John runs ahead of Peter to the empty tomb but does not enter. He waits for Peter to enter first.
*Luke 24:34 risen Christ first appeared to Peter
*Mk 16:7 Angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
*Lke 9:32 and Mk 16:7 Peter and his companions.
*Gal 1:18 after conversion Paul visits chief Apostle
*Lk 22:32 Peters faith will strengthen his brethren
* Acts 1: 13-26 Led the Apostles to replace Judas ( apostolic succession too)
* Acts 2:14 led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
* Acts 2:41 received the first converts
* Acts 3:6-7 performed the first miracle after Pentecost
* MT 16:18 Upon this Rock I will build my Church
* MT 16:18 give you the Keys to the Kingdom
*JN 21:17 given Christ's flock as Chief Shepherd
*Acts 5:1-11 inflicted first punishment, Anaias and Sphira dropped dead for lying to him.
*Acts 8:21 excommunicated first heretic; Simon Magnus
*Acts 10:44-46 received revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church
*Acts 15;7 led first Council of Jerusalem
* Acts 15:19 pronounces his first dogmatic decision
* Mt 18:21, Mk8:29, Lk 8:45, 12:41, Jn 6:69 Peter Spoke for the Apostles.
Peter's name appears 195 time in the Bible, more tan all the rest put together.
So, is Peter the rock of your salvation? Jesus is the chief corner stone which all other stones are connected. Peter's confession "that Jesus is Lord" is the key to the kingdom.
William

Birmingham, AL

#12 May 15, 2013
You know I actually had a Catholic priest tell me once that Paul is actually the 12 apostle, and that he took Matthias' place in apostolic succession.

That has GOT to be some RCC "tradition" right there, because that is nowhere to be found anywhere in the Bible.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#13 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby: Are these familiar with you?
* John runs ahead of Peter to the empty tomb but does not enter. He waits for Peter to enter first.
*Luke 24:34 risen Christ first appeared to Peter
*Mk 16:7 Angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
*Lke 9:32 and Mk 16:7 Peter and his companions.
*Gal 1:18 after conversion Paul visits chief Apostle
*Lk 22:32 Peters faith will strengthen his brethren
* Acts 1: 13-26 Led the Apostles to replace Judas ( apostolic succession too)
* Acts 2:14 led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
* Acts 2:41 received the first converts
* Acts 3:6-7 performed the first miracle after Pentecost
* MT 16:18 Upon this Rock I will build my Church
* MT 16:18 give you the Keys to the Kingdom
*JN 21:17 given Christ's flock as Chief Shepherd
*Acts 5:1-11 inflicted first punishment, Anaias and Sphira dropped dead for lying to him.
*Acts 8:21 excommunicated first heretic; Simon Magnus
*Acts 10:44-46 received revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church
*Acts 15;7 led first Council of Jerusalem
* Acts 15:19 pronounces his first dogmatic decision
* Mt 18:21, Mk8:29, Lk 8:45, 12:41, Jn 6:69 Peter Spoke for the Apostles.
Peter's name appears 195 time in the Bible, more tan all the rest put together.
*Several reasons "guessed" for why Peter entered tomb first and how John outran him. They are just that, guesses-no scriptural support for John deferring to Peter's primacy here.

*The risen Lord first appeared to the women, before any apostles.

*Mark 16:7 shows that Peter had abandoned the other disciples at this point over his grief and denial of Jesus.

*Those with Peter in Luke 9 are James and John, part of the inner circle also chosen to see Jesus in His true state.

*Galatians does not say Peter was the chief apostle; Paul also saw James the Lords brother at the same time. In the next chapter Paul says James, Cephas, and John all seem to be pillars.

*Peter was to strengthen his brethren after he returned from abandoning them due to his denial.

*Acts 1 doesn't teach apostolic succession, nor did Peter "lead" the apostles. The believers proposed two, and then they cast lots to determine. Does "apostolic succession" today cast lots to determine?

*Acts 2-all the apostles were speaking; Peter is the keynote speaker because he was given the authority by Jesus to open the church doors. Peter didn't receive the believers-the crowd received his word.

*In Acts 3, Peter is quick to point out that Jesus performed that miracle, due to the lame mans faith. Not him!

*Keys to the kingdom-used at Pentecost and Cornelius' house. Peter was the one to preach the terms of admittance to both Jew and Gentile.

*1 Peter 5-Peter states he is simply a fellow elder along with other elders; and that one day the CHIEF SHEPHERD (Jesus) shall appear. Peter never was called, nor called himself, chief shepherd.

*Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead for lying to the Holy Spirit, for lying to God-not for lying to Peter.

*Simon was not "excommunicated" by Peter-in the next verse Peter tells him to repent and pray. No sight of excommunication here.

*Peter did not "lead" the Jerusalem council-he was testifying in front of this council as well as Paul and Barnabas and those of the Pharisees. But the "dogmatic decision" of Acts 15:19 came from JAMES, NOT PETER!

All this comes from a simple reading of scripture.
William

Birmingham, AL

#14 May 15, 2013
"Peter did not "lead" the Jerusalem council-he was testifying in front of this council as well as Paul and Barnabas and those of the Pharisees. But the "dogmatic decision" of Acts 15:19 came from JAMES, NOT PETER!"

And that is not the James that wrote the epistle, either.
William

Birmingham, AL

#15 May 15, 2013
Acts 12

1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.

2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

James, the half-brother of the Lord, is the James of Acts 15.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#16 May 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
*Several reasons "guessed" for why Peter entered tomb first and how John outran him. They are just that, guesses-no scriptural support for John deferring to Peter's primacy here.
*The risen Lord first appeared to the women, before any apostles.
*Mark 16:7 shows that Peter had abandoned the other disciples at this point over his grief and denial of Jesus.
*Those with Peter in Luke 9 are James and John, part of the inner circle also chosen to see Jesus in His true state.
*Galatians does not say Peter was the chief apostle; Paul also saw James the Lords brother at the same time. In the next chapter Paul says James, Cephas, and John all seem to be pillars.
*Peter was to strengthen his brethren after he returned from abandoning them due to his denial.
*Acts 1 doesn't teach apostolic succession, nor did Peter "lead" the apostles. The believers proposed two, and then they cast lots to determine. Does "apostolic succession" today cast lots to determine?
*Acts 2-all the apostles were speaking; Peter is the keynote speaker because he was given the authority by Jesus to open the church doors. Peter didn't receive the believers-the crowd received his word.
*In Acts 3, Peter is quick to point out that Jesus performed that miracle, due to the lame mans faith. Not him!
*Keys to the kingdom-used at Pentecost and Cornelius' house. Peter was the one to preach the terms of admittance to both Jew and Gentile.
*1 Peter 5-Peter states he is simply a fellow elder along with other elders; and that one day the CHIEF SHEPHERD (Jesus) shall appear. Peter never was called, nor called himself, chief shepherd.
*Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead for lying to the Holy Spirit, for lying to God-not for lying to Peter.
*Simon was not "excommunicated" by Peter-in the next verse Peter tells him to repent and pray. No sight of excommunication here.
*Peter did not "lead" the Jerusalem council-he was testifying in front of this council as well as Paul and Barnabas and those of the Pharisees. But the "dogmatic decision" of Acts 15:19 came from JAMES, NOT PETER!
All this comes from a simple reading of scripture.
Correct and I would like to add that John was the youngest and by simple respect for elders he would have stepped aside to allow Peter to go first.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#17 May 15, 2013
William wrote:
Acts 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
James, the half-brother of the Lord, is the James of Acts 15.
Come on, you really believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters? Does the bible say half brother anywhere/

What is the Aramaic word for cousin or uncle or aunt. There is none. They used brothers and sisters. I think Bobby has a bunch of Brothers and Sisters in his Church. I guess they are all related by DNA.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#18 May 15, 2013
William wrote:
You know I actually had a Catholic priest tell me once that Paul is actually the 12 apostle, and that he took Matthias' place in apostolic succession.
That has GOT to be some RCC "tradition" right there, because that is nowhere to be found anywhere in the Bible.
Paul is an Apostle, just not one of the 12. He was personally picked by God.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#19 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul is an Apostle, just not one of the 12. He was personally picked by God.
Yes, he was personally picked by God to be an apostle to the gentiles. You are a gentile, not a Jew, right?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#20 May 15, 2013
William wrote:
Mike, what do you think Peter had to say when Paul told him about this?
Romans 2:16
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
What is Paul's gospel, according to the RCC?
Gospel means good news. The Gospels are the historical accounts of Jesus' life and teachings. Paul's gospel, good news, was Jesus Christ.

Peter would have said Amen

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