The Will of God: Sovereign Decree, Prescriptive Will

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calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#1
Jan 30, 2013
 
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#2
Jan 30, 2013
 
??? This guy is really hard to listen to, as he doesn't get to any points - just rambles on...

What's your point?
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#3
Jan 30, 2013
 
I confess he does ramble on a bit on this. The second half is a bit better but still somewhat slow. Go to his site and listen to his lesson on Romans 8 and 9 it is not draggy like this one. My point is that our will is not free as we think. God is in charge not man. Even when we decide for salvation it comes from God.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#4
Jan 30, 2013
 
Not being raised in 'Free Will' theology, I don't know that much about it. Fact is God knows who are His, and those who are His must be careful about who they hear... just ask Adam and Eve:-) He knows who will be saved because He is God. We don't because we aren't God. Life is more for our benifit, that we know His foreknowledge was correct.

The Kingdom of God has to do with those who are willing to fully submit to the will of the King of the Jews:-) It is about submiting to what He has declared true and not finding reasons to try to get around the truth He gave us. But some here just like to argue around His words instead of just accepting them.

The guy on the link just seems to be asking a lot of questions that should be answered as he abides in the doctrine of God that Jesus taught. I don't know any other way he can know for sure.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#5
Jan 30, 2013
 
calvin wrote:
I confess he does ramble on a bit on this. The second half is a bit better but still somewhat slow. Go to his site and listen to his lesson on Romans 8 and 9 it is not draggy like this one. My point is that our will is not free as we think. God is in charge not man. Even when we decide for salvation it comes from God.
Isn't the truth somewhere between the extremes? The fact is, salvation is both initiated from God by the preaching of the gospel, and then man is a free will agent to choose whether or not he will respond. It is both divine calling and human response. There are places for predestination and free will. But they have to correspond to what the Bible teaches.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#6
Jan 31, 2013
 
I think Arminianism is a profound error. Its tendencies can be sinister, and when it is allowed to go to seed, it leads people into rank heresy. There are plenty of ignorant and inconsistent Calvinists out there, too. With the rise of the Internet itís easier than ever for self taught lay people to engage in theological dialogue and debate through internet forums, such as this site. I think thatís mostly good, and I encourage it. But the Internet makes it easy for like minded but ignorant people to clump together and endlessly reinforce one anotherís ignorance. And I fear that happens a lot from both sides of the creek. You ask, "Isn't the truth somewhere between the extremes?" I believe truth is somewhere between hyper Calvinism and Arminianism.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#7
Jan 31, 2013
 
James 1:18 says, "In the exercise of His will, He brought us forth by the word of truth so that we might be, as it were, the firstfruits among His creatures."

Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, not even one, none who understands, none who comprehends," no ability to respond. "None who seeks for God, they're all turned aside, they've all become useless, there's none who does good, not even one."

Romans 8:7, "The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, it does not subject itself to the law of God, it is not even able to do so." There's nothing in the heart of a person who is outside the kingdom of God to respond, there is no ability.

Ephesians 2:1, is speaking about the condition of individuals before salvation, "You were dead." "You were dead in your trespasses and sins." You walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, who is Satan, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience.

And so the doctrine of regeneration, in my opinion, the teaching in the Bible of regeneration says that God gives to His elect life so they can respond to the call, the Father's drawing. In order to respond to the calling of God through the Holy Spirit, the sinner has to be made alive and that is not something the sinner can do for himself. John 3 declares that God first gives life to the sinner before he can even see the Kingdom of God. First the sinner must be resurrected from the dead and only then can he please God in repentance and such. He gave us life. He gave birth to us. He made us alive. John 1:13 is crystal clear - we are not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or our will, but born of Gods will. Dead men cannot make themselves alive. This is the regenerating work of God and God alone.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#8
Jan 31, 2013
 
I would reply like this- that there is nothing in any of those passages that disqualify human free will and choice. Does God move first? Absolutely. He sent His Son to earth, He initiated the plan. He calls us today through the gospel. I think its safe to say that God starts the salvation process.

Where I disagree is the idea that regeneration or rebirth occurs before anything including faith. It is by our faith we are reborn, we are justified. And many of us see the famous passage in Ephesians as saying that salvation is the gift of God there, not faith.

Since: May 10

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#9
Jan 31, 2013
 
calvin wrote:

Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, not even one, none who understands, none who comprehends," no ability to respond. "None who seeks for God, they're all turned aside, they've all become useless, there's none who does good, not even one."
Lets look at this text that you threw in. Tell me is the text true that there is no one that has or does seek God? Yes or No
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#10
Jan 31, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Lets look at this text that you threw in. Tell me is the text true that there is no one that has or does seek God? Yes or No
No person will without God being in control.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#11
Jan 31, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
I would reply like this- that there is nothing in any of those passages that disqualify human free will and choice. Does God move first? Absolutely. He sent His Son to earth, He initiated the plan. He calls us today through the gospel. I think its safe to say that God starts the salvation process.
Where I disagree is the idea that regeneration or rebirth occurs before anything including faith. It is by our faith we are reborn, we are justified. And many of us see the famous passage in Ephesians as saying that salvation is the gift of God there, not faith.
I beg to differ. I believe faith is THAT which we get from God. John 3 declares that man must have a rebirth before he can even see the Kingdom. In fact, John 3, in context, is a section that deals strongly with Gods electing power.

"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying,'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. "How can this be?", Nicodemus asked. Nicodemus understood the depth of Jesus words cut against the natural mans thinking. Jesus told him to even be able to see the Kingdom that first he had to be born from above. Then Jesus compares regeneration with the blowing of the wind saying,ďthe wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.Ē Wow, what a hard saying for those who believe they assist God in regeneration. Jesus strikes that notion to shreds which prompted Nicodemus to ask" How can this be?"
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#12
Jan 31, 2013
 
calvin wrote:
I think Arminianism is a profound error. Its tendencies can be sinister, and when it is allowed to go to seed, it leads people into rank heresy. There are plenty of ignorant and inconsistent Calvinists out there, too. With the rise of the Internet itís easier than ever for self taught lay people to engage in theological dialogue and debate through internet forums, such as this site. I think thatís mostly good, and I encourage it. But the Internet makes it easy for like minded but ignorant people to clump together and endlessly reinforce one anotherís ignorance. And I fear that happens a lot from both sides of the creek. You ask, "Isn't the truth somewhere between the extremes?" I believe truth is somewhere between hyper Calvinism and Arminianism.


I agree, as I am somewhere in between. I also think we should be able to co-exist without denying the other as a true believer/follower of Christ.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#13
Jan 31, 2013
 
calvin wrote:
<quoted text>
I beg to differ. I believe faith is THAT which we get from God. John 3 declares that man must have a rebirth before he can even see the Kingdom. In fact, John 3, in context, is a section that deals strongly with Gods electing power.
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying,'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. "How can this be?", Nicodemus asked. Nicodemus understood the depth of Jesus words cut against the natural mans thinking. Jesus told him to even be able to see the Kingdom that first he had to be born from above. Then Jesus compares regeneration with the blowing of the wind saying,ďthe wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.Ē Wow, what a hard saying for those who believe they assist God in regeneration. Jesus strikes that notion to shreds which prompted Nicodemus to ask" How can this be?"
It's true that no man can see the kingdom without being born again, bit let's not forget how we are reborn. Man does play a role in his own salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. God calls us through the gospel. Man must respond to that call. God does not regenerate man first then grant him faith.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#14
Jan 31, 2013
 
The Bible does teach human responsibility, Iím not denying this at all. Nor do I hold a hyper Calvinist view. The Bible teaches that the sinner is guilty, the sinner is responsible for sin, the sinner is given the opportunity. Sinners are responsible to believe God, to come to faith in the gospel and through Jesus Christ to be saved. And yet on the other side, I believe those who are saved are saved because of the sovereign purpose of God - His will we are born, not of our wills, according to the Bible.

I'm not going to be the one to resolve that, no one ever has. On one hand, we preach the gospel and hold the sinner responsible. On the other hand, we rejoice and praise God for the mighty work of salvation which He alone can do.

I believe election occurred before the world began and those He elects, He regenerates. At this point, the sinner can please God. Before regeneration, the sinner cannot do anything but BE DEAD. The Bible is very clear that we are NOT born of our desire or will, but born of God.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#15
Jan 31, 2013
 
calvin wrote:
James 1:18 says, "In the exercise of His will, He brought us forth by the word of truth so that we might be, as it were, the firstfruits among His creatures."
Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, not even one, none who understands, none who comprehends," no ability to respond. "None who seeks for God, they're all turned aside, they've all become useless, there's none who does good, not even one."
Romans 8:7, "The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, it does not subject itself to the law of God, it is not even able to do so." There's nothing in the heart of a person who is outside the kingdom of God to respond, there is no ability.
Ephesians 2:1, is speaking about the condition of individuals before salvation, "You were dead." "You were dead in your trespasses and sins." You walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, who is Satan, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience.
And so the doctrine of regeneration, in my opinion, the teaching in the Bible of regeneration says that God gives to His elect life so they can respond to the call, the Father's drawing. In order to respond to the calling of God through the Holy Spirit, the sinner has to be made alive and that is not something the sinner can do for himself. John 3 declares that God first gives life to the sinner before he can even see the Kingdom of God. First the sinner must be resurrected from the dead and only then can he please God in repentance and such. He gave us life. He gave birth to us. He made us alive. John 1:13 is crystal clear - we are not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or our will, but born of Gods will. Dead men cannot make themselves alive. This is the regenerating work of God and God alone.
I have a little bit of a problem with this, the same problem many others have. Does God actually take away all the power of man to choose and does God choose before we are born those who will be heirs of salvation with all others destined for fire. The scripture seems to say yes, he does. So the question remains "does man
have any free will"?

Are those who will be eternally lost actually born of the seed of satan? In other words do we as fathers and mothers have children who are sons of satan?

I am thinking of Jacob and Esau...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#16
Jan 31, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's true that no man can see the kingdom without being born again, bit let's not forget how we are reborn. Man does play a role in his own salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. God calls us through the gospel. Man must respond to that call. God does not regenerate man first then grant him faith.
That is a great thought. I wonder though, does that mean that the gospel is entirely in our hands to reach the lost? In other words, if we fail to take the gospel to people who have never heard it, will that make us responsible for their demise?
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#17
Jan 31, 2013
 
I will not attempt to balance mans will with Gods will nor will I pat myself on the back for something for which dead sinners cannot do. This is where many get tangled in Armenians web and somehow think they help God in the saving process. Our response only is made possible because of God bringing us to Life. Dead men canít make themselves alive. As I said, the Bible does teach human responsibility. It teaches that the sinner is guilty, the sinner is responsible for sin, the sinner is given the opportunity. Sinners are responsible to believe in God, to come to faith in the gospel and through Jesus Christ to be saved. Iím not denying this fact at all. However, on the other side, I believe that those who are saved are saved because of the sovereign purpose and will of God.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#18
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a little bit of a problem with this, the same problem many others have. Does God actually take away all the power of man to choose and does God choose before we are born those who will be heirs of salvation with all others destined for fire. The scripture seems to say yes, he does. So the question remains "does man
have any free will"?
Are those who will be eternally lost actually born of the seed of satan? In other words do we as fathers and mothers have children who are sons of satan?
I am thinking of Jacob and Esau...
This is a most difficult subject and one I almost not even touch. No, not free in the sense that man overrides the will of God. I would like to go through Romans, where you eluded, perhaps at some point discuss this in more detail.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#19
Jan 31, 2013
 
How does this fit into the discussion?

"The tares and the wheat"

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#20
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a great thought. I wonder though, does that mean that the gospel is entirely in our hands to reach the lost? In other words, if we fail to take the gospel to people who have never heard it, will that make us responsible for their demise?
I don't believe the gospel is totally in our hands. Paul said he planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the increase. We preach the gospel but God helps the seed to grow. That being said, Paul mentioned several times that he was clean of the blood of the Jews because he preached the gospel to them. I think that yes, we are responsible if we don't tell the lost about the gospel. There are a couple of famous passages in Ezekiel that tells us as such. Scary responsibility-and how many of us aren't guilty in some degree?

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