Church of christ on obeying commands-...

Church of christ on obeying commands-tihing

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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#1 Dec 31, 2012
The coc says there is a proper way of giving but deny that old testament tithing is for today. Nevertheless they have new testament commands for it.

I have heard all kinds of arguments why tithing is not necessary and other arguments that tithing today is not the same as OT times because we are taxed by our government up to 40% or more.

Obedience seems to be the coc's answer for everything, then why are there no two who can agree on this as with nearly everything connected to law/commandment/rule keeping.

Barnsweb says the old testament commands are still in force. He and the coc condemn those awful denominations who actually try to tithe, in other words they are still in their sin destined for hell. New guy will say that it is not necessary to tithe today and Barnsweb will be forced to say that it is still in required.

Both will not accept those in the evangelical church who try to keep that command from the heart and not from the law.

When it boils down to where the rubber meets the road both new guy and barnsweb will overlook the other one's position on this. However both believe that we are saved by keeping commands/law/rules. The only difference they have in which laws/commands/rules actually count toward salvation. They can agree fully on the command for water baptism except when the denominations obey it, they both turn it around and make it a faith issue. Go figure.

If we are to be saved by laws/commandsrules doesn't it make sense that we must perfectly keep everyone of them.

How can barnsweb and new guy actually be brothers in Christ???
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#2 Dec 31, 2012
What a completely erroneous, inaccurate post. You can do better than this.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#3 Dec 31, 2012
The only thing you have right in this entire thing is that we're to give from the heart, not out of "obligation" or compulsion. Paul states that in 2nd Corinthians. Jesus saw no problem with giving and tithing- He just said not to leave the more important things undone. He commended the widow who gave all that she had. How many of US are doing that?

Giving is present in both covenants. Didn't Paul discuss the offering for the saints at Jerusalem that was taken up weekly in 1 Corinthians 16? Could it also be that freewill giving could be greater than a stock 10%?

Let's just face the facts-your issue isn't about giving at all, it's the idea of the necessity of obedience in order to be saved. Hard to answer your post because it's all over the place.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#4 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
Obedience seems to be the coc's answer for everything, then why are there no two who can agree on this as with nearly everything connected to law/commandment/rule keeping.
"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life". Yes, obedience is the answer.

No two agree? On law keeping, rule keeping, etc? Please don't forget about those pre-mills, post-mills; pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib dispensationals; Sabbath or Sundays; praying through at an altar, asking Jesus into our heart, or signing our pledge card; should I go on? The evangelical world hardly agrees on anything alike- but you point at BW and myself? That's hypocrisy.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#5 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby, this isn’t a church of Christ teaching exclusively. J. Vernon Magee, John MacArthur and many others agree with this church of Christ in this regard. If you believe we are to tithe, do we also follow every given pattern in the Old Testament. If you add them all up, its around like 23%. I agree with NG on this. I would think some rather tithe who can afford to pay more than a tithe.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#6 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
Barnsweb says the old testament commands are still in force. He and the coc condemn those awful denominations who actually try to tithe, in other words they are still in their sin destined for hell. New guy will say that it is not necessary to tithe today and Barnsweb will be forced to say that it is still in required.
Both will not accept those in the evangelical church who try to keep that command from the heart and not from the law.
When it boils down to where the rubber meets the road both new guy and barnsweb will overlook the other one's position on this. However both believe that we are saved by keeping commands/law/rules. The only difference they have in which laws/commands/rules actually count toward salvation. They can agree fully on the command for water baptism except when the denominations obey it, they both turn it around and make it a faith issue. Go figure.
Always worrying about "us" accepting "you". Worry about whether or not Jesus accepts us!

The issues with the evangelical idea, and their view of salvation and baptism, is a faith issue.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#7 Dec 31, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
Bobby, this isn’t a church of Christ teaching exclusively. J. Vernon Magee, John MacArthur and many others agree with this church of Christ in this regard. If you believe we are to tithe, do we also follow every given pattern in the Old Testament. If you add them all up, its around like 23%. I agree with NG on this. I would think some rather tithe who can afford to pay more than a tithe.
You are making my point. Barnsweb believes that the commandments are necessary for today, does he keep that commandment, I do not know. I agree with with all the others also. However which commands are binding on us, barnsweb says all of them and new guys disagrees. In spite of their different views on tithing, their fellowship is not broken. In spite of the fact that I have obeyed in water baptism I am rejected as a brother. Based on what?

Would you believe that I spent many years tithing without ever binding it as a fellowship issue to my brothers.

Mormons and Adventist have certain times where a triple tithe is required.

So, what is the one thing that bind us together, it is not perfect obedience or one of our favorite commands that we wish to bind to others.

Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Here I what i see in this passage: Paul was teaching us earlier how to live righteous lives. However I read between the lines that there is still sin among the brothers or else Paul would not said to forgive as the Lord forgives and to put on love.

In reality there is no perfect church or perfect people. We do however have a perfect brother born in our likeness (of a woman) who understands our afflictions and struggles "Jesus" who is capable of refining us like pure gold. Do we participate in this process-absolutely.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#8 Dec 31, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Always worrying about "us" accepting "you". Worry about whether or not Jesus accepts us!
The issues with the evangelical idea, and their view of salvation and baptism, is a faith issue.
So you do not feel that is important for us to love one another unless it is based on your understanding/expectations? What I mean is that you seem to have a an exclusive brotherhood. This is at the root of campbellism. Most can not even fellowship with each other. I guess I am expecting to much:(

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#9 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You are making my point. Barnsweb believes that the commandments are necessary for today, does he keep that commandment, I do not know. I agree with with all the others also. However which commands are binding on us, barnsweb says all of them and new guys disagrees. In spite of their different views on tithing, their fellowship is not broken. In spite of the fact that I have obeyed in water baptism I am rejected as a brother. Based on what?
Would you believe that I spent many years tithing without ever binding it as a fellowship issue to my brothers.
Mormons and Adventist have certain times where a triple tithe is required.
So, what is the one thing that bind us together, it is not perfect obedience or one of our favorite commands that we wish to bind to others.
Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Here I what i see in this passage: Paul was teaching us earlier how to live righteous lives. However I read between the lines that there is still sin among the brothers or else Paul would not said to forgive as the Lord forgives and to put on love.
In reality there is no perfect church or perfect people. We do however have a perfect brother born in our likeness (of a woman) who understands our afflictions and struggles "Jesus" who is capable of refining us like pure gold. Do we participate in this process-absolutely.
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. If we could live up to the commandments, why do we need Jesus? Moreover, wasn’t this part of the purpose for Jesus going to the cross? I totally understand where you are coming from and honestly I think New Guy and BW do as well. Neither are stating that we earn or merit our standing before God via our good works or obedience to the Law. Least I hope that’s not what either are saying. I think they both are counting the Law as Holy and something we all should strive to be walking in each day ----- and when we do fall, we know we have a mediator – a Lawyer if you will, pleading our case before God. When a Christian falls, they repent.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#10 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
So you do not feel that is important for us to love one another unless it is based on your understanding/expectations? What I mean is that you seem to have a an exclusive brotherhood. This is at the root of campbellism. Most can not even fellowship with each other. I guess I am expecting to much:(
Forgive me for butting in but isn’t the countless denominations evidence that we have certain cliques? If we REALLY were not ‘exclusive’ we would have no need for party names and such. I know Baptist who will say Pentecostals are heading to hell and I’m sure some Pentecostals will condemn Baptist and others to hell. The LDS, SDV, and other groups are NOT accepted by most other denoms.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#11 Dec 31, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Forgive me for butting in but isn’t the countless denominations evidence that we have certain cliques? If we REALLY were not ‘exclusive’ we would have no need for party names and such. I know Baptist who will say Pentecostals are heading to hell and I’m sure some Pentecostals will condemn Baptist and others to hell. The LDS, SDV, and other groups are NOT accepted by most other denoms.
Yes, that is correct, but which one is right? I am convinced that in heaven we will be as much surprised as to who is there as we will to who is missing. I am thankful that it is not my call.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#12 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that is correct, but which one is right? I am convinced that in heaven we will be as much surprised as to who is there as we will to who is missing. I am thankful that it is not my call.
All I know is there are MANY denominations that claim to be heading to heaven and the Bible says FEW there be that make it to heaven. More shocking is the response Jesus will tell those who thought they were safe. He will say, I ‘NEVER’ knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#13 Dec 31, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. If we could live up to the commandments, why do we need Jesus? Moreover, wasn’t this part of the purpose for Jesus going to the cross? I totally understand where you are coming from and honestly I think New Guy and BW do as well. Neither are stating that we earn or merit our standing before God via our good works or obedience to the Law. Least I hope that’s not what either are saying. I think they both are counting the Law as Holy and something we all should strive to be walking in each day ----- and when we do fall, we know we have a mediator – a Lawyer if you will, pleading our case before God. When a Christian falls, they repent.
Correct on my part at least.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#14 Dec 31, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Forgive me for butting in but isn’t the countless denominations evidence that we have certain cliques? If we REALLY were not ‘exclusive’ we would have no need for party names and such. I know Baptist who will say Pentecostals are heading to hell and I’m sure some Pentecostals will condemn Baptist and others to hell. The LDS, SDV, and other groups are NOT accepted by most other denoms.
And to add to that, the SDA, JW, and many LDS think all of us are lost balls in the high weeds as well. How many are quick to hop on the 'cult' label?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#15 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
So you do not feel that is important for us to love one another unless it is based on your understanding/expectations? What I mean is that you seem to have a an exclusive brotherhood. This is at the root of campbellism. Most can not even fellowship with each other. I guess I am expecting to much:(
The only time we can have a real fellowship is when we are all in Christ. The problem then is that for the evangelical community, they are never actually told the truth about how to get in Christ, and when they are, many refuse to believe that truth because of what they have been told and taught. I would like nothing more than for all of us to be in fellowship together with the Father in Christ.

The evangelical view of salvation and baptism's role in it will not put someone in Christ.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#16 Dec 31, 2012
The apostle John summed it up well. We are not to fellowship those who don't uphold the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and this is not just that Jesus is Christ - per the gospel accounts, the good news and call for repentance to prepare for the Kingdom of God is the doctrine He taught, which goes right along with the sermon on the mount, great commission, promise of God and the warning from Moses when Peter idenfified who 'that Prophet' was.

Most just muse over arguing about what moment a person is 'saved' instead of thinking they have to be hearers and doers of the words that lead to eternal life.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#17 Dec 31, 2012
Most cringe at the word 'commandment', even Church of Christ preachers - but that is the word God chose to use. Seems they're so afraid of the fact that it causes them to be ashamed of the words of the Savior. Seems really sad to me.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#18 Dec 31, 2012
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
All I know is there are MANY denominations that claim to be heading to heaven and the Bible says FEW there be that make it to heaven. More shocking is the response Jesus will tell those who thought they were safe. He will say, I ‘NEVER’ knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness.
Randy will you be among the saved when Jesus returns?

I am convinced that many folks completely underestimate the number who will be saved. Unless we think like Heath's bunch (only 8 saved from flood and if that is all we have we are good) or like some who think the number 144,000 is all who will be saved such as Jehovah witnesses taught before their church grew larger than that:)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#19 Dec 31, 2012
Barnsweb wrote:
Most cringe at the word 'commandment', even Church of Christ preachers - but that is the word God chose to use. Seems they're so afraid of the fact that it causes them to be ashamed of the words of the Savior. Seems really sad to me.
If we were to live together for a few weeks we might learn a lot about each other:) At least we would know if the other actually practices what they preach:)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#20 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy will you be among the saved when Jesus returns?
I am convinced that many folks completely underestimate the number who will be saved. Unless we think like Heath's bunch (only 8 saved from flood and if that is all we have we are good) or like some who think the number 144,000 is all who will be saved such as Jehovah witnesses taught before their church grew larger than that:)
Actually a thoughtful post. We have the testimony of Jesus: Matthew 7:13-14.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

And then we have Revelation 7:9-10.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

I think (opinion here) that overall the number may be large indeed; unfortunately, that number is spread out over centuries. That means few of our contemporaries at a given time make it; overall though a great many. My opinion, that's all.

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