He that believes and is baptized will...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#41 Jul 12, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
This interpretation was from 1 man. His partner disagreed with thim.
Reference/source that I can check?
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#42 Jul 12, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
When you have time I'd like you to expound some more on this. Many say eis always points forward. I agree that eis "points", but in the context of Acts 2 eis "has a view" of past events thus repentance and baptism are acts of faith "in view of" ... "towards" ... Jesus being raised from the dead and at the right hand of the father. In other words they changed thier minds about Jesus based on the message of Peter. In short ... repentance and baptism were acts of faith that were done in view of events Peter previously stated in his sermon in Acts 2. If true, this means other churches baptisms are valid seeing they do so in view of Jesus Christ
Gonna get started looking deeper into it. Personally, have been taught that eis is forward looking, with "motion towards". I am still inclined to believe that, seeing that repentance and baptism was "unto or towards" forgiveness and reception of the Spirit. Obviously it was Peter's message that pricked their hearts.

*Randy- In short ... repentance and baptism were acts of faith that were done in view of events Peter previously stated in his sermon in Acts 2. If true, this means other churches baptisms are valid seeing they do so in view of Jesus Christ

*Dave- I agree with your thoughts. I don't necessarily think "eis" has to prove that point. The way that verse has been traditionally read has been the problem. Most coc, being honest, would admit that Alexander Campbell thought that other groups baptism was valid, because of their faith in Christ. Perhaps that's why AC wouldn't be allowed in a coc today, and been swept under the rug.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#43 Jul 12, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Gonna get started looking deeper into it. Personally, have been taught that eis is forward looking, with "motion towards". I am still inclined to believe that, seeing that repentance and baptism was "unto or towards" forgiveness and reception of the Spirit. Obviously it was Peter's message that pricked their hearts.
*Randy- In short ... repentance and baptism were acts of faith that were done in view of events Peter previously stated in his sermon in Acts 2. If true, this means other churches baptisms are valid seeing they do so in view of Jesus Christ
*Dave- I agree with your thoughts. I don't necessarily think "eis" has to prove that point. The way that verse has been traditionally read has been the problem. Most coc, being honest, would admit that Alexander Campbell thought that other groups baptism was valid, because of their faith in Christ. Perhaps that's why AC wouldn't be allowed in a coc today, and been swept under the rug.
I agree. EIS looks towards remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit ..... but on what basis do we repent and be baptized. It seems we do so with a view ... on the basis ... in regards to Jesus Christ. Therefore EIS hinges upon gospel facts.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#45 Jul 12, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Reference/source that I can check?
Just a letter answering all of his critics.

A one man Bible interpretation.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/aent_critics.h...
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#46 Jul 12, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. EIS looks towards remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit ..... but on what basis do we repent and be baptized. It seems we do so with a view ... on the basis ... in regards to Jesus Christ. Therefore EIS hinges upon gospel facts.
Correct. Already dug up some interesting nuggets.

These come from other sites. Later I will give links. But one definition of eis is "into, direction, towards, entrance into; stressing RESULT rather than PURPOSE; resulting in."

In no given case does the motion of eis look backward. Yes, the crowd at Pentecost was looking back at the gospel facts, but the motion of repentance and baptism was forwards.

The Greek word "gar" is our word for "because". Purpose.

And the most interesting..... did you know eis is in John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing "EIS" into Him may not perish, but have everlasting life".

That drastically changes how most people view this verse.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#47 Jul 12, 2013
Galatians 3:27- For as many as (for here is GAR) ye were baptized into (EIS) Christ, ye put on Christ.

Here we see gar and eis side by side. Gar is definitely "for" or "because". Eis is exactly as it says- into.

Baptized "because" of forgiveness of sins? No.
Baptized "for" forgiveness of sins? No.
Baptized "into, unto, towards" forgiveness? Yes.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#48 Jul 12, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. EIS looks towards remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit ..... but on what basis do we repent and be baptized. It seems we do so with a view ... on the basis ... in regards to Jesus Christ. Therefore EIS hinges upon gospel facts.
Agreed...

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#49 Jul 12, 2013
I swear y'all crack me up.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#50 Jul 12, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Just a letter answering all of his critics.
A one man Bible interpretation.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/aent_critics.h...
I thought that was a really good response from Andrew regarding some of his more well known critics. Oddly, it was another Christian from Jerusalem who noted my web site from another debate site that pointed me to the AENT, as we had pretty much the same Scriptures noted to support views not commonly held in Western Christianity, which I see Andrew was also dealing with the same issues and others charges against him.

What I found was first found in the NKJV. The passages are there if we do some careful ordering of what the foundational teachings are. John 3:16 is but a speck in the building of the once for all delivered faith that Jesus Christ taught.

My secular job enabled me to digest huge amounts of materials - plans, specs, special provisions, environmental permits and law, special permits, negotiations with multiple agencies from State to Local to Federal and even Native American and corporate interests that blended between them. Conflicts between regulators with diverse interests to protect was perhaps the most difficult, as are trying to get funding for special problems. This and dealing with the facts of nature, geology, soils, climate, elevations, local conditions, and even archeological and endangered species - the mix of the mess and the actuality of all the personalities involved from top to bottom - to give answers to difficult questions that needed good answers.

I applied the same talents used at work to digest the directions given in Scripture, weighing things in the balance to ensure near equality with what the record has Jesus teaching, as well as others in Scripture. My conclusions are not in agreement with any one Church, but I will say that I think most all Churches have something they understand better than the other Churches, and we would benefit from re-investigation of the facts as taught in the Holy Scripture - be it from the Greek, Latin or Aramaic source texts. We also need to know what the authors meant by words they used and try not to make too much of a verse here or there that don't easily fit into the whole. This is why my site focuses on the teachings of Jesus Christ, and if Christians are actually 'disciples' of Jesus, as the Scriptures note, then we need to be true to Him and His word - not what some council of men come up with that He didn't direct.

I think Andrews' work is exceptional, and I also have come to believe he has a good understanding of passages that note what the rabbinical understandings were as opposed to what we, as far removed Westerners, imagine they meant.

Jesus said His words were imperishable by any means, and the words that were preserved and translated by Andrew continue to be a wonderful resource to know better what Jesus was teaching originally. I still use my NKJV and the Complete Jewish Bible, but I use the AENT as the root/bedrock to check other things against more and more...

What did you think of Andrews' responses to his critics?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#51 Jul 12, 2013
When I first discovered the AENT I sent him a note and invited him to check out my site - his response was favorable.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#52 Jul 12, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
When I first discovered the AENT I sent him a note and invited him to check out my site - his response was favorable.
What is the last gasp of Protestantism? Well, it's a form of Evangelicalism that has enjoyed wide popularity in recent years. It is called the Messianic Jewish Movement, or just Messianic Judaism. What is this?

It is nothing short of Protestantism's dying gasp. You see, modern Evangelicalism is the pinnacle of the Protestant religion. It is the final stripping away of all Catholic traditions and customs. In fact, Evangelical Protestants have a near phobia about traditions, which they view to be "dangerous and mindless rituals" that have no redeeming quality.

Simply pull out a rosary and show it to any Evangelical and watch their response to it. To them, it represents everything that is wrong in the world. However, in this phobia against tradition, they do in turn make their own traditions, which they keep quite ritualistically. They pray a certain way. They worship a certain way. Sometimes worship services follow a very set and defined order, which can only be described as ritualistic.

Nevertheless, you'll be fortunate of you ever get one of them to see it for what it is. However, there is a growing number of younger Evangelicals who recognise the emptiness of a tradition phobia. They know there is more to Christianity than just a praise and worship band with drums and a base guitar.

They recognise that something went wrong with the Reformation, and perhaps the proverbial "baby was thrown out with the bath water." Maybe there is something to say for tradition, identity and custom. So in keeping with the Protestant code of rejecting all things Catholic, they have instead turned to modern Judaism for the answer.

They have embraced modern Jewish culture, rituals, prayers and dress and commandeered them for themselves. They have created a new form of Protestantism, the last and final form, before it fades way from the earth. They don't even call it Protestantism, nor to they even call it Christianity. It is Messianic Judaism!

Simply take all of the culture and traditions of modern Rabbinical Judaism, and artificially insert an Evangelical Protestant theology, and poof! You have a whole new religion! In the coming weeks I hope to give you some examples of this, and demonstrate just how popular it is becoming. It is in every sense the final conclusion of Protestantism, and it is ultimately the last gasp of Protestantism before it goes the way of the dinosaur.
William

Warrior, AL

#53 Jul 12, 2013
A Catholic article in a negative light about somebody else adopting Jewish rituals is wildly funny. Catholicism owns the copyright on warmed-over Judaism.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#54 Jul 12, 2013
William wrote:
A Catholic article in a negative light about somebody else adopting Jewish rituals is wildly funny. Catholicism owns the copyright on warmed-over Judaism.
Wouldn't talk about being warmed over if I were you.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#55 Jul 12, 2013
Mark, my only experience with the Messianic Synagogue is locally, and it is no where near Protestants in viewpoint or faith or teachings.

Progressive style - yes, and that bothers me, but since what God said is He desires those who worship Him in spirit and truth - they have that right, so I'm going to turn on tradition in favor of truth. Many claim to be lead by the Spirit or live by the Spirit who also say the very standards that God sent the Spirit to help us with no long apply. But most people are just as Niche said - they don't want to know the truth because it would destroy their delusions.
William

Warrior, AL

#56 Jul 12, 2013
Yeah I suppose its Fishy to make the comparison.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#57 Jul 12, 2013
Walk up to any Church of Christ and what do you see? A warmed over Baptist church.
Walk into any Church of Christ and what do you see? A warmed over Baptist church.
When the service starts what do you see? A warmed over Baptist service.
When the singing starts what do you hear? Warmed over Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Church of England and even Catholic hymns.
When communion starts what do you see? Warmed over Baptist communion. The CofC even goes to the Baptist bookstore to get its little cups.
William

Warrior, AL

#58 Jul 12, 2013
Well, the Catholic church baptizes, so they should really be called a Baptist church.

And so should the rest of these water-worshipping churches.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#59 Jul 12, 2013
William wrote:
Well, the Catholic church baptizes, so they should really be called a Baptist church.
And so should the rest of these water-worshipping churches.
Do you use shrooms?
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#60 Jul 12, 2013
If the thoughts that Randy and I have are correct (and so far Bobby agrees in theory), then what we are truly to be baptized for is simply because we look at the gospel facts, recognize Jesus is who He claimed to be, and realize that we put Him on that cross and desire that we be forgiven.

When we believe God and His promises, we act on them and God keeps His promises to us. That makes forgiveness and the Spirit both results, not reasons.

There are a lot more people baptized into Christ than the coc will acknowledge.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#62 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
If the thoughts that Randy and I have are correct (and so far Bobby agrees in theory), then what we are truly to be baptized for is simply because we look at the gospel facts, recognize Jesus is who He claimed to be, and realize that we put Him on that cross and desire that we be forgiven.
When we believe God and His promises, we act on them and God keeps His promises to us. That makes forgiveness and the Spirit both results, not reasons.
There are a lot more people baptized into Christ than the coc will acknowledge.
Yes, thank God that He is true to His word and not to those who falsely accuse others.

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