He that believes and is baptized will be saved

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Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#21
Jul 11, 2013
 
What matters more- why groups baptize or why we are baptized?
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

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#22
Jul 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Understanding the purpose of baptism. Is it:
A- specifically FOR remission of sins and the Spirit;
B- for being guilty of crucifying Christ.
I contend B. The crowd at Pentecost asked "what shall we do"? They had crucified Christ, were guilty and convicted, and asked what shall we do?
Peter's response- 2 commands, 2 promises. Commands- repent and be baptized. 2 promises- remission of sins, gift of the Spirit.
"For" is eis in the Greek- into or unto remission. Not "for" as in purpose. That Greek word is gar. They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ, because of their sins. Forgiveness and the Spirit are the results. As Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
The crowd at Pentecost wasn't baptized for a theological discussion; nor did they have Romans 6 or 1 Peter 3 to go on.
Perhaps we can be baptized FOR remission of sins and still get it wrong. Perhaps conviction of sin, and asking what to do, is the answer. Forgiveness and the Spirit are results, not purposes.
Beautifully said. Hats off to you for this post.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#23
Jul 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Understanding the purpose of baptism. Is it:
A- specifically FOR remission of sins and the Spirit;
B- for being guilty of crucifying Christ.
I contend B. The crowd at Pentecost asked "what shall we do"? They had crucified Christ, were guilty and convicted, and asked what shall we do?
Peter's response- 2 commands, 2 promises. Commands- repent and be baptized. 2 promises- remission of sins, gift of the Spirit.
"For" is eis in the Greek- into or unto remission. Not "for" as in purpose. That Greek word is gar. They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ, because of their sins. Forgiveness and the Spirit are the results. As Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
The crowd at Pentecost wasn't baptized for a theological discussion; nor did they have Romans 6 or 1 Peter 3 to go on.
Perhaps we can be baptized FOR remission of sins and still get it wrong. Perhaps conviction of sin, and asking what to do, is the answer. Forgiveness and the Spirit are results, not purposes.
They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ

I think this is worth considering in the equation. Some like William believe that it was only for the jews because no gentiles were in that first crowd. Then when Paul came to minister to the gentiles, it seems to be different.

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#24
Jul 11, 2013
 

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Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ
I think this is worth considering in the equation. Some like William believe that it was only for the jews because no gentiles were in that first crowd. Then when Paul came to minister to the gentiles, it seems to be different.
Bobby, I’m not so sure about this. Peter finishes by saying the promises are for those FAR OFF which to me includes Gentiles.

Dave, Peter did not use the word “gar” in Acts 2:38, but rather he used the word “eis.” Jesus, in Matthew 26:28, used the identical expression,“for the remission of sins,” as did Peter in Acts 2:38. I am curious how you come to believe the Greek word “gar” was used by Peter.

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#25
Jul 11, 2013
 

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I may have misunderstood you Dave. You do see EIS there but render it as UNTO or INTO and not “for purpose to obtain” as GAR could be used if that be the case by Peter.

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#26
Jul 11, 2013
 

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I believe EIS in Acts 2:38 is UNTO as you stated, Dave. If the context is considered, the Jews repented UNTO the message delivered by Peter- Jesus being killed by their hands. Peter also declared Jesus risen from the dead which means EIS also is UNTO – towards the gospel of Christ. When Peter commanded repentance and baptism he was giving those commands with a view [eis] of the work of Jesus Christ. The Jews were baptized EIS-in view of the Gospel just as most Church people do today. Peter basically said the same thing as Jesus. Believe and be baptized and ye shall be saved. Peter wasn’t giving a formula but a way we respond in faith to the work of Jesus Christ. This is what most all Churches do today. They are baptized because they believe in Jesus Christ. Most all Churches repent and are baptized with a view of what Jesus done for us. I think the church of Christ have missed this.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#27
Jul 11, 2013
 

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"They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ."

That is EXACTLY right.'Ye men of Israel' were who the admonition was sent to, not to any Gentile, and certainly not any of us living today. Acts 2:37 does not say "what must I do to be saved" either. Acts 2 is a murder indictment against Israel, not a plea for salvation.

"I think this is worth considering in the equation. Some like William believe that it was only for the Jews because no gentiles were in that first crowd. Then when Paul came to minister to the gentiles, it seems to be different."

Acts 2-7 is to, for, and about Israel. Those particular Jews (i.e., the circumcision) that repented of killing their long-prophesied Messiah were water-baptized similar to the baptism of John when he was heralding Christ's coming. The baptism is for repentance unto Israel.

Believing Israel was to be converted first, then the rest of Judea, then Samaria, then everywhere else.

That didn't happen.

Stephen was killed in Acts 7, and that put an end to the church at Jerusalem (which is the church formed in Acts 2; it was NOT the body of Christ). God raise up a new apostle, Saul, to then carry the gospel of grace to Jews and Gentiles alike, apart from believing Israel going and doing it.

The revelation of the mystery, that God would save Jew and Gentile alike through faith and trust in the finished work of Christ, is our gospel. The gospel of grace. The events of Acts 2-7 are not related to Paul's gospel, which he says in Romans 2:16 that "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to HIS gospel." Not Peter's.

Religion today mixes what was given to Peter with what was given to Paul. They are not the same gospel, and cannot be mashed together to make them the same unless a denomination has a doctrinal stake in doing so.

No one today can be saved by the events of Acts 2.
Dave P

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#28
Jul 11, 2013
 
Will respond after work. Lots here.

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#29
Jul 11, 2013
 

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This was settled by the 4th Century by men far wiser than you or me. I can't imagine why you would be discussing and debating it in the 21st Century. Could it be you just can't be sure what you believe since there are nearly 40,00 competing prot opinions, each one more certain of its "truth" than the next? EIS? give me an effing break.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#30
Jul 11, 2013
 
William, it's about the promise of God. He is not going back on what He has decreed.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#31
Jul 11, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
I may have misunderstood you Dave. You do see EIS there but render it as UNTO or INTO and not “for purpose to obtain” as GAR could be used if that be the case by Peter.
Sorry Randy. Should have been clearer. Acts 2:38 is eis; not gar. That is something that was an eye-opener for me. Little words can make a big difference.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#32
Jul 11, 2013
 
William wrote:
Acts 2-7 is to, for, and about Israel. Those particular Jews (i.e., the circumcision) that repented of killing their long-prophesied Messiah were water-baptized similar to the baptism of John when he was heralding Christ's coming. The baptism is for repentance unto Israel.

Believing Israel was to be converted first, then the rest of Judea, then Samaria, then everywhere else.
That didn't happen.
Stephen was killed in Acts 7, and that put an end to the church at Jerusalem (which is the church formed in Acts 2; it was NOT the body of Christ). God raise up a new apostle, Saul, to then carry the gospel of grace to Jews and Gentiles alike, apart from believing Israel going and doing it.
The revelation of the mystery, that God would save Jew and Gentile alike through faith and trust in the finished work of Christ, is our gospel. The gospel of grace. The events of Acts 2-7 are not related to Paul's gospel, which he says in Romans 2:16 that "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to HIS gospel." Not Peter's.
Religion today mixes what was given to Peter with what was given to Paul. They are not the same gospel, and cannot be mashed together to make them the same unless a denomination has a doctrinal stake in doing so.
No one today can be saved by the events of Acts 2.
*First, as Randy pointed out, the Acts 2 baptism wasn't strictly for Israel. Those afar off appears to be mentioning the gentiles.

William- Believing Israel was to be converted first, then the rest of Judea, then Samaria, then everywhere else.
That didn't happen.
Stephen was killed in Acts 7, and that put an end to the church at Jerusalem (which is the church formed in Acts 2; it was NOT the body of Christ). God raise up a new apostle, Saul, to then carry the gospel of grace to Jews and Gentiles alike, apart from believing Israel going and doing it.

Dave- that most certainly did happen. Samaria was converted in Acts 8. Stephen's death did not end the church at Jerusalem; the apostles didn't leave Jerusalem and the church was still there by Acts 15. How is the church not the body of Christ?

Peter preached the same gospel to Cornelius as he did to the Jews at Pentecost.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#33
Jul 11, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ
I think this is worth considering in the equation. Some like William believe that it was only for the jews because no gentiles were in that first crowd. Then when Paul came to minister to the gentiles, it seems to be different.
1- Absolutely sure NO gentiles were present? None responded- but does this mean none were there.

2- PETER opened the door for the gentiles. He was first. Same message as at the first. Same events.

Paul's direction in preaching, his manner, may have been different- but it was the same gospel. Same call for the same response.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#34
Jul 11, 2013
 
Peter preached the same gospel to Cornelius as he did to the Jews at Pentecost."

Except that he didn't tell Cornelius that Chris died for his sins, and was resurrected for his justification.

That was given to Paul. And Paul had to explain his gospel to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2. He certainly didn't get his gospel from them, and they did not know about it until Paul revealed it to them.

Paul's gospel is not the same gospel as the one given to Peter. But it is our gospel for us today.

The gospel of the grace of God.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#35
Jul 11, 2013
 
"Paul's direction in preaching, his manner, may have been different- but it was the same gospel. Same call for the same response."

No way, man.

Peter preached remission of sins to repentant Israel. After water baptism, they STILL had to endure to the end to have their sins taken away at the second coming of Christ, when Christ would take away their sins. Acts 3:19-21 is never told to people after Acts 2:38 is shoved down their throats by religion today.

Paul preached complete forgiveness of sin the moment someone trusts that Christ died for their sins, was buried, and resurrected for their justification. When someone trusts this gospel, and it is Paul's gospel, they are baptized BY the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of redemption. No water required.

Sin does not send a person to hell today. Unbelief that Christ died for their sins and was resurrected for their justification is what sends a person to hell. Turning to God for salvation through Christ's finished work is repentance.

Our faith in what Christ did for us is us having faith in "the faith OF Jesus Christ." Galatians 2:16 in a KJV spells it out. So does Romans 3.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#36
Jul 12, 2013
 
All the arguing over the Greek word that Peter used on Pentecost, to a flock of Jews?

Just for fun and consideration, let's see if the AENT translation into English has the same issues...starting with 2:25
AENT, Netzari Press LLC copyright 2010:

For Dawid spoke concerning him, I foresaw my Master, for at all times he (is) at my right hand so that I will not be moved. Because of this my heart rejoices and my praise flourishes and also my body dwells in hope. Because you will not leave my soul in Sheol, and neither will you allow your Righteous One to see corruption. You have revealed the road of life to me. You will fill me with gladness with your presence. Men, our brothers, allow (me) to speak boldly with you concerning the Patriarch Dawid, who is dead and also buried, and whose grave is with us until today. For he was a prophet, and he had known that oaths that elohim had sworn to him, that, of the fruit of your loins I will establish (a king) upon your throne. And he foresaw and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Mashiyach, that he was not left in Sheol, nor did his body see corruption. This Y'shua Elohim raised, and we (are) all of his witnesses. And this is he who is exalted at the right hand of Elohim, and received the promise from the Father concerning the Rauch haKodesh. And he has poured out this gift, which behold you see and you hear. For it was not (that) Dawid did ascend into Heaven, because he said,'Master YHWH said to my Master, sit (yourself) at my right hand. Until I place your enemies (as) a footstool for your feet. Truly therefore let all of the house of Israel know that Master YHWH has made this Y'shua whom you have sacrificed both Elohim and Mashiyach. And when they heard these things they were touched in their hearts, and they said to Shimon and to the rest of the Shlichim,'What should we do, our brothers?' Shimon said to them,'Repent and be immersed each of you in the name of Master YHWH Y'shua for the forgiveness of sins, that you may receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh. For to you was the promise, and to your children, and to all those who are far away whom Elohim will call. And with many other words he would witness to them and he would beseech them while saying, Save (yourselves) from this perverse generation.' And some of them readily received his word and believed and were immersed. And there were added in that day about three thousand souls. And they were steadfast in their teaching of the Shlichim and they were fellowshipping in prayer and in the breaking of bread. And fear came to every soul, and signs and many mighty deeds occurred by the hands of the Shlichim in Urishlim. And all those who had believed as one, and everything that they had were held in common. And those who had a possession would sell it and divide it to each one according to whatever was in need. And everyday they were steadfast in the temple with one sould. And at home they were breaking loaves of bread. And while they were receiving food, and rejoicing in the simplicity of their hearts, they were praising Elohim while finding favor before all the people. And everyday our Master (Y'shua) would add to those who lived among the congregation.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#37
Jul 12, 2013
 
It looks to me that the core issue is the promise of God and what our response should be when we realize the promise, that it was for the forgiveness of sins so that we could receive the Holy Spirit, which is given to those who obey God that we have our hearts of stone replaced with a heart of flesh that wants to do what God said to do. This is why I think the Ezekiel 36:26,27 passage must have also been included in the 'many other words' Peter spoke to them. We need to look to other things in the OT because Luke failed to record the whole sermon of Peter. We can glean other details of the message from further accounts of what Peter preached throughout Acts and what he said in his epistles.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#38
Jul 12, 2013
 
William wrote:
"Paul's direction in preaching, his manner, may have been different- but it was the same gospel. Same call for the same response."
No way, man.
Peter preached remission of sins to repentant Israel. After water baptism, they STILL had to endure to the end to have their sins taken away at the second coming of Christ, when Christ would take away their sins. Acts 3:19-21 is never told to people after Acts 2:38 is shoved down their throats by religion today.
Paul preached complete forgiveness of sin the moment someone trusts that Christ died for their sins, was buried, and resurrected for their justification. When someone trusts this gospel, and it is Paul's gospel, they are baptized BY the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of redemption. No water required.
Sin does not send a person to hell today. Unbelief that Christ died for their sins and was resurrected for their justification is what sends a person to hell. Turning to God for salvation through Christ's finished work is repentance.
Our faith in what Christ did for us is us having faith in "the faith OF Jesus Christ." Galatians 2:16 in a KJV spells it out. So does Romans 3.
Why not move on to the end of Acts 3, particularly 22,23? The keeping of His words? And if He directed they make disciples of Him, immerse them, and that they keep what He had first commanded them - I don't think we should so easily dismiss immersion for the forgiveness of sins that we might receive the Holy Spirit. We cannot have the faith of Jesus Christ if we don't believe what He said about His words from the Father that lead to eternal life.

onediscipletoanother.org
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#39
Jul 12, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
All the arguing over the Greek word that Peter used on Pentecost, to a flock of Jews?
Just for fun and consideration, let's see if the AENT translation into English has the same issues...starting with 2:25
AENT, Netzari Press LLC copyright 2010:
For Dawid spoke concerning him, I foresaw my Master, for at all times he (is) at my right hand so that I will not be moved. Because of this my heart rejoices and my praise flourishes and also my body dwells in hope. Because you will not leave my soul in Sheol, and neither will you allow your Righteous One to see corruption. You have revealed the road of life to me. You will fill me with gladness with your presence. Men, our brothers, allow (me) to speak boldly with you concerning the Patriarch Dawid, who is dead and also buried, and whose grave is with us until today. For he was a prophet, and he had known that oaths that elohim had sworn to him, that, of the fruit of your loins I will establish (a king) upon your throne. And he foresaw and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Mashiyach, that he was not left in Sheol, nor did his body see corruption. This Y'shua Elohim raised, and we (are) all of his witnesses. And this is he who is exalted at the right hand of Elohim, and received the promise from the Father concerning the Rauch haKodesh. And he has poured out this gift, which behold you see and you hear. For it was not (that) Dawid did ascend into Heaven, because he said,'Master YHWH said to my Master, sit (yourself) at my right hand. Until I place your enemies (as) a footstool for your feet. Truly therefore let all of the house of Israel know that Master YHWH has made this Y'shua whom you have sacrificed both Elohim and Mashiyach. And when they heard these things they were touched in their hearts, and they said to Shimon and to the rest of the Shlichim,'What should we do, our brothers?' Shimon said to them,'Repent and be immersed each of you in the name of Master YHWH Y'shua for the forgiveness of sins, that you may receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh. For to you was the promise, and to your children, and to all those who are far away whom Elohim will call. And with many other words he would witness to them and he would beseech them while saying, Save (yourselves) from this perverse generation.' And some of them readily received his word and believed and were immersed. And there were added in that day about three thousand souls. And they were steadfast in their teaching of the Shlichim and they were fellowshipping in prayer and in the breaking of bread. And fear came to every soul, and signs and many mighty deeds occurred by the hands of the Shlichim in Urishlim. And all those who had believed as one, and everything that they had were held in common. And those who had a possession would sell it and divide it to each one according to whatever was in need. And everyday they were steadfast in the temple with one sould. And at home they were breaking loaves of bread. And while they were receiving food, and rejoicing in the simplicity of their hearts, they were praising Elohim while finding favor before all the people. And everyday our Master (Y'shua) would add to those who lived among the congregation.
This interpretation was from 1 man. His partner disagreed with thim.

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#40
Jul 12, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Randy. Should have been clearer. Acts 2:38 is eis; not gar. That is something that was an eye-opener for me. Little words can make a big difference.
When you have time I'd like you to expound some more on this. Many say eis always points forward. I agree that eis "points", but in the context of Acts 2 eis "has a view" of past events thus repentance and baptism are acts of faith "in view of" ... "towards" ... Jesus being raised from the dead and at the right hand of the father. In other words they changed thier minds about Jesus based on the message of Peter. In short ... repentance and baptism were acts of faith that were done in view of events Peter previously stated in his sermon in Acts 2. If true, this means other churches baptisms are valid seeing they do so in view of Jesus Christ

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