Eternal Security: Once Saved Always Saved

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New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#122
Apr 25, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't know who Nelson is and I doubt Lucado (max) would have the time to send out emails.
I think belief and faith is the same thing.
As to your earlier question about being branded as a legalist, I think legalism takes on many forms. For example some here believe using instruments in worship is a sin. That is legalism but not a salvation issue.
Most of us have issues with certain areas of law keeping especially OT laws that we adhere to. There again that can be legalism, particularly when being bound to other Christians as a condition of salvation-thinking of the sabbath.
I don't don't know exactly where to draw the line. I think homosexuality is a sin, I tend to bind that as a salvation issue but in reality it is a sin issue and God will forgive sin. I know this opens the door for criticism on my part drawing the discussion back to one unforgiven sin will send a person to hell and that eternal security is a lie. However God said through Paul "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". I suspect that all of grieve the Spirit from time to time.
See how circular our discussions are?
One of my friends in church is an alcoholic, he has been aa and has seriously tried to overcome it-he has gone for years without a drink only to start back up. Recently he has hit his wife and she finally filed for divorce. His wife still comes to our meetings and he has stopped coming to church. This has been going on for many years-I think he is in his mid 50's.
Another man came to us about three years ago with the same issue. Today he is still clean and is an outstanding believer. I have never used alcohol and have no idea what that is like to become addicted.
I am thinking about Rahab, wondering if she continued/struggled with prostitution. I believe all of us have skeletons in our closet and should be quick to forgive and careful not to condemn. I believe the church should be a hospital for the sick and wounded among us, as we are all in a constant battle with sin. How do we overcome?
Very thoughtful post. I want to interject a couple of thoughts here. Totally agree that we all have skeletons, should be quick to forgive and not to condemn. I still have struggles like we all do. That won't change until we take off this tent.

When it comes to the idea of sin, what condemns or sends to hell, I believe that John tells us that habitual practiced and unrepentant sin is what dooms our soul. Speaking of homosexuality, Paul told the Corinthians that some of them were-past tense. They came out of it. Were they saved? Absolutely. Think some of them may have had struggles with it later? I do.

I talk to a man at work who has a homosexual friend. His friend believes that God made him that way, that he talked to God about it and God is ok with his lifestyle. He goes to church weekly. He thinks he is saved. My friend from work has tried to talk to the guy, but he won't listen. That in my opinion is unrepentant habitual sin. That man is in spiritual danger. I believe that's the difference. We may stumble and fall, get back up and do it again. But falling and staying in the ditch, yet thinking we are on the road walking-that's dangerous.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#123
Apr 25, 2013
 

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Grieving the Spirit-look at the context and we see how it's done:

Speak lies and falsehoods
Be wrathful and let your anger linger
Steal and be lazy
Unwholesome talk and speech
Bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, slander, malice
Hateful and spiteful to the brethren, unforgiving

That's in the immediate context in the Ephesians passage.

How do we overcome? By being faithful even to the point of death, and keeping the deeds of Christ until the end according to Revelation.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#124
Apr 25, 2013
 

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JustChristian wrote:
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What advise would you have given to Rahab?
Obviously the answer is "go and sin no more". That doesn't remove the human physical and mental aspect though. There are still lusts of the flesh that we all have struggles to deal with. Those lusts differ from person to person, but we all still have them.

Since: Jul 11

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#125
Apr 25, 2013
 

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I agree with Dave.

Having struggled with alcoholism I can relate to others who have similar addictions. I know some people [even preachers] say,“all you have to do is put it down and trust God”. Some addicts can do this but its not the norm.

Far as homosexuality goes and other sins- I suppose those are just as hard to overcome. As you said, the Church should be a hospital for people with such struggles. However, the Church must N E V E R be a place that “allows” sin to remain and grow. The Church must be there to help people with addictions, homosexuality, etc., but never should the Church count any sin as “normal lifestyle”.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#126
Apr 25, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
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The Jews fell away from it because it was being read in the Catholic Churches. Why did it take them until the end of the first century to find errors.
Maybe because it was re-written from an original? Considering the number of parchments burned during the persecutions of the early church it can be argued that the Catholic Church recreated the Septuagint, and that creation added the differences that drove the Jews away.
Mike Peterson wrote:
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I agree about denominations. That was invented in the 1500s.
No denominations existed the moment they started building dedicated temples to be used for worship. The moment walls went up to house the believers the moment they separated themselves from the original design for the church.
Mike Peterson wrote:
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How do you get around the fact that Jesus started a Church and with the Keys to the Kingdom given to Peter?
While Peter is rock, there is a question in my mind of Jesus is speaking of Peter as the rock or if he is speaking of the revelation that Peter was given by God and that of Jesus being the son of God. Since Jesus bought the church with his death, I would lean more towards Jesus being the son of God as the rock the church would be built on.
Mike Peterson wrote:
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He also he would protect this Church until the end of ages.
Since the church are the people who believe and since those people were martyred over the centuries, along with other calamities the protection you speak of isn't of this world, but of the next. The gates of Hades will not prevail doesn't mean that doctrine can't have some error in it.
Mike Peterson wrote:
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But I know, the HS has spoken to you personally and have given you the gift of the interpretation of Bible.
Just a man like Peter or any other man. There are times when I am wrestling with the meanings that I have been woken from a deep sleep with a question that seems to point to the answer, is it the Holy Spirit, perhaps, or maybe my own subconscious mind. I assume you do not believe in the Holy Spirit or God's ability to reveal himself to anyone?
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You and another hundreds of millions of people. But wait, who did the HS really give the truth too, because so many say different things.
When his church stands before him, it will not be to thank them for correctly figuring out the correct doctrine, it will be because we loved God, loved people (especially those who believe that we differ with) and told the good news to a lost and dying world.
Mike Peterson wrote:
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I guess I may have to go with you instead of the Apostles. Not.
The Apostles never used the term catholic, the term catholic was first coined around 100 ad by the second generation, not the original leaders of the church. That second generation and those that followed were not afraid of adding to the word of God, even though John warned against it. I have to wonder if some of the massive plagues of Europe were not due to the clear warning John gave against tampering with the scriptures.

So you have claimed I oppose the Apostles, please give examples since our conversation about the catholic church is not covered by the Apostles. But denominational churches were not the goal of God when he said we would worship him in Spirit and in Truth. A time when we would no longer go to a temple because the temple would be within us.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#127
Apr 25, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
So I just add that we do as He said and be hearers and doers of His word because He said so, and I'm branded a 'legalist'?:-)
I brand you a legalist! ;) Don't want you to appear a liar! ;-P
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#128
Apr 25, 2013
 

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New Guy wrote:
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Very thoughtful post. I want to interject a couple of thoughts here. Totally agree that we all have skeletons, should be quick to forgive and not to condemn. I still have struggles like we all do. That won't change until we take off this tent.
When it comes to the idea of sin, what condemns or sends to hell, I believe that John tells us that habitual practiced and unrepentant sin is what dooms our soul. Speaking of homosexuality, Paul told the Corinthians that some of them were-past tense. They came out of it. Were they saved? Absolutely. Think some of them may have had struggles with it later? I do.
I talk to a man at work who has a homosexual friend. His friend believes that God made him that way, that he talked to God about it and God is ok with his lifestyle. He goes to church weekly. He thinks he is saved. My friend from work has tried to talk to the guy, but he won't listen. That in my opinion is unrepentant habitual sin. That man is in spiritual danger. I believe that's the difference. We may stumble and fall, get back up and do it again. But falling and staying in the ditch, yet thinking we are on the road walking-that's dangerous.
That is the position I took a few years ago and I still have the tendency to agree with you. After reading and studying Hosea and the prostitute (Gomer) he took for his wife because God told him to choose for himself a prostitute. Then at the end of Gomer's life she was very old and was still a prostitute, Hosea bought her off an auction block where no one else would even bid on here. She was worthless in the sight of everyone, she had no sign of even having any faith and yet she was redeemed. Of course the story relates to Israel-God's chosen people. There is a case there to be made that God does the choosing. I know that is hyper Calvinist doctrine but regardless something-someone higher than us has is is still in control.

What did we have to offer God when we did not even know there was a God. You see I don't believe that man would have ever looked for God if he had not revealed himself to us. Yep, I know that is way out there even for me:-) I take it as a sign not to be to quick to judge. I would not want to bet the farm on it though. God is still God and we cannot change him into our image.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#129
Apr 25, 2013
 
With our tongues we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.

Easy to read and understand, HARD to accomplish. God have mercy on us!
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#130
Apr 25, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
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I brand you a legalist! ;) Don't want you to appear a liar! ;-P
Love you guy:-)

I'll likely be taking a break for Topix for a while, and will miss you all:-)
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#131
Apr 25, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
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Love you guy:-)
I'll likely be taking a break for Topix for a while, and will miss you all:-)
You will be missed!

"Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."
Whitman

Charlottesville, VA

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#132
Apr 25, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Once a sinner becomes saved, can salvation be lost? Some insist that a Christian is forever secure even when/if that Christian goes back to his former life. I believe the Bible offers security to the believer as he abides in Christ. By abiding I do not mean earn nor merit- I mean keeping the faith. Long as the believer continues in Christ and seeks after him he is secure. However, the believer can walk away and return to his former ways thus be lost.
What say ye?
come up here on the moutain randy roo and join some flat footing to go with that foot in the mouth
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#133
Apr 26, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
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Love you guy:-)
I'll likely be taking a break for Topix for a while, and will miss you all:-)
If you have time read the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Learn how the first christian's worshiped and what the apostles taught them.

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