Eternal Security: Once Saved Always Saved

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Since: Jul 11

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#1
Apr 16, 2013
 
Once a sinner becomes saved, can salvation be lost? Some insist that a Christian is forever secure even when/if that Christian goes back to his former life. I believe the Bible offers security to the believer as he abides in Christ. By abiding I do not mean earn nor merit- I mean keeping the faith. Long as the believer continues in Christ and seeks after him he is secure. However, the believer can walk away and return to his former ways thus be lost.

What say ye?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#2
Apr 16, 2013
 
As Johnny would say,'What does the Bible say?';-)

Is mere belief and immersion binding upon God so that others truths are nullified?

Looking at Acts 3:22,23, which Peter and the other apostles surely taught whereever the gospel was preached - do we tempt God to think we can be saved without being faithful servants? And the 'servant' parable who was not faithful to use the gift of their master in the economy they lived in - but instead burried it because they were afraid of him - were cast into outer darkness.

Reminds me a lot of the evangelicals doctrine of no need to do what He said yet. Just bury the most precious treasure ever given to man and claim you didn't know He actually expected us to use His words to live by and be sanctified by.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#3
Apr 16, 2013
 
A better definition is "IF saved, always saved."

Ephesians 1:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 That WE (i.e., Paul and his brethren) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom YE ALSO trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Those Ephesian gentiles believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and trusted it. Paul's letter to them from prison is him telling them of what they now possessed after trusting the gospel.

Since: Jul 11

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#4
Apr 16, 2013
 

Judged:

1

I once held the OSAS position [about 20 years ago]- since then have changed my position on this.

I do want to add: I deny the salvation by works teachings also. Many give the impression that somehow their obedience grants them security as if they can actually do enough good works that God will accept their dirty filthy rags of imperfection. Man can never be sinless yet that should and must be the goal of every Christian although he will always fall short. No man can boast before God that he made it to heaven by his good works; yet, the Christian is saved unto good works, and a mark of one who has been saved, is good works.

I also do not like how people abuse 1 John 1:9, making it almost a license or loop-hole to sin. After all, per the teaching of 1 John 1:9, we can sin then confess it and be walking back in the light, according to some. This teaching has Christians bouncing back and forth from light to darkness. We sin- back walking in darkness [unsaved]… then we repent/confess our sins per 1 John 1:9 then we are walking in the light [saved]. Sorry, but this view of 1 John 1:9 makes no sense at all. God forbid a person fails to confess each and every sin because doing so per this view of 1 John 1:9 puts him back walking in darkness until every sin is confessed. I’m not saying a Christian shouldn’t repent and acknowledge his sins- just saying some are abusing 1 John 1:9.

Those who advocate OSAS can party on Saturday night and confess their sins per 1 John 1:9 on Sunday morning and all is find until the next sin. Some hyper-Calvinist believe nothing they do can take them from God. I personally know of people who “shack up” have sex as if they are married and come Sunday morning are in Church as if they are saved. OSAS has led to this kind of behavior. They have said a “sinners prayer” and been told they are eternally secure thus whats the big deal if they have sex with someone they aren’t married to. In their eyes, they are forever saved … nothing can take them from God.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#5
Apr 16, 2013
 
According to Hebrews 6, there is a clear example of one walking away from the faith, returning to the old ways as a Jew. Clearly it speaks of falling away, thus returning to a state where they are no longer acceptable to God nor allowed to return.

Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,[d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Thus there is no such thing as once saved always saved. Man in his free will can walk away from God and suffer for his choice. Thus when we all stand before God and find ourselves condemned we will have no one to blame but ourselves because it will be our choices that brought us to that place.

Since: Jul 11

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#6
Apr 16, 2013
 
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#8
Apr 16, 2013
 
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#9
Apr 16, 2013
 
That is interesting Randy. You started off with the teaching of osas and I started off works for salvation and we both switched.

I will say that your view is much softer and more pliable than where I began in the coc- one very similar to Johnny's.

I like Williams definition "IF saved, always saved."

Some people read and study the bible for years before they will surrender to the Lord. Others may hear one sermon or hear the gospel from a friend or neighbor and their journey begins right away.

I think either way is good. However the one who quickly receives the message may be shallow with a tendency to live on a slippery slope. The one who takes a long time in making up his mind has more information, but if he takes to long he could die or miss the Lord on his return.

Paul was one of those who knew the word but needed to be slapped in the face to get his attention and the thief was one who had no time study or think much about it but he chose to believe quickly. Both conversions are equally valid.

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#10
Apr 16, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
According to Hebrews 6, there is a clear example of one walking away from the faith, returning to the old ways as a Jew. Clearly it speaks of falling away, thus returning to a state where they are no longer acceptable to God nor allowed to return.
Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,[d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Thus there is no such thing as once saved always saved. Man in his free will can walk away from God and suffer for his choice. Thus when we all stand before God and find ourselves condemned we will have no one to blame but ourselves because it will be our choices that brought us to that place.
I agree. These Jews were ONCE SAVED then turned their backs on Jesus, returning to the old ways as a Jew … thus are so fallen away that its impossible for such a one to be renewed unto repentance. This section of Scripture has been hard for Calvinist to explain yet some do make a good attempt at it. John MacArthur Jr. has a unique spin on this. He says they were NOT saved but merely partook in the sense of being around the TRUTH yet never having committed to it. I disagree- the word RENEWED unto repentance means they once repented thus they were more than merely bystanders knowing the truth- they believed the truth once!

Since: Jul 11

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#11
Apr 16, 2013
 
William wrote:
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Your position being IF one walks away he never was saved?????
William

Birmingham, AL

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#12
Apr 16, 2013
 
No, I am quoting the Bible when it says that you can tell what is in someone's heart by what comes out of their mouth.

Or in this case, a keyboard.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#13
Apr 16, 2013
 
Luke 15 speaks clearly to the position that claims if you are not saved you never were, look at this text of the story Jesus told of God the Father:

Luke 15:22 But the father said to his slaves,‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

In the above the father is God, the son is someone who was in relationship with the father but walks away and returns. Note that while he was out of the relationship the son was dead to the father and lost to the father.

Thus it is a clear example of saved then being unsaved, and returning again to be saved.

It refutes the IF saved positioning to try and work around the issue of saved men failing and falling away.

Also the story of the seed where some of it starts to grow but then withers from the cares of this world.

Thus a believer can move from a condition of acceptable then become unacceptable to God and then return again.

Also look at Matthew 18's dire warning against holding a debt against your fellow servant.

The King was so angry at the servant that he tossed him back into prison until he could repay his entire debt himself. Clearly lack of forgiveness in a believer can move them back into where they will have to pay for their own sins, thus unsaved.

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#14
Apr 16, 2013
 
William wrote:
No, I am quoting the Bible when it says that you can tell what is in someone's heart by what comes out of their mouth.
Or in this case, a keyboard.
Okay, now that you have said that, shall we return to the thread?

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

James 1:13-16- Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17-18 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#15
Apr 16, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
Luke 15 speaks clearly to the position that claims if you are not saved you never were, look at this text of the story Jesus told of God the Father:
Luke 15:22 But the father said to his slaves,‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
In the above the father is God, the son is someone who was in relationship with the father but walks away and returns. Note that while he was out of the relationship the son was dead to the father and lost to the father.
Thus it is a clear example of saved then being unsaved, and returning again to be saved.
It refutes the IF saved positioning to try and work around the issue of saved men failing and falling away.
Also the story of the seed where some of it starts to grow but then withers from the cares of this world.
Thus a believer can move from a condition of acceptable then become unacceptable to God and then return again.
Also look at Matthew 18's dire warning against holding a debt against your fellow servant.
The King was so angry at the servant that he tossed him back into prison until he could repay his entire debt himself. Clearly lack of forgiveness in a believer can move them back into where they will have to pay for their own sins, thus unsaved.
We have butted heads on this before, but I still respect you a lot.

One of the problems with this thinking is that it leads us to a place where we live in fear that our next sin will render us as forever lost. Any sin is sin therefore any sin can destroy us even if we are believers. That seems pretty drastic to me.

On the flip side some evangelicals do indeed take their freedom in Christ for granted. I would rather take my chances on God's grace than my own ability to not sin.

I think what we may be missing is that we still have a sinful nature as long as we live in this body the war will rage on.

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#16
Apr 16, 2013
 
William wrote:
No, I am quoting the Bible when it says that you can tell what is in someone's heart by what comes out of their mouth.
Or in this case, a keyboard.
If your position is that some leave because they were not saved to begin with … I think you are looking over the fact that FALLING AWAY means falling away. The Bible N-E-V-E-R says, "he who falls away was never really saved to begin with". All of the exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#17
Apr 16, 2013
 
So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#18
Apr 16, 2013
 
"All of the exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers."

Hebrews 6 comes to mind.

So if a Hebrew falls away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.

But wait, I read that there is neither Jew nor Greek, nor bond nor free, nor male nor female for them that are in the body of Christ.

What gives?
William

Birmingham, AL

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#19
Apr 16, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

4 For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This series of verses say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone (a Hebrew, since that is who the epistle is written to) to be renewed again unto repentance.

IMPOSSIBLE.

So having said that, does your church or assembly tell someone that if they "fall away" that there is no hope for them to be saved?

Because that is exactly what these verses say.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#20
Apr 16, 2013
 
Life through the Spirit changes the dynamics as we now have help to overcome our sin.

"But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

I believe it is primarily the life of Christ in us that gives us strength to not sin. And when we do (and we will)it is still the righteousness of Christ living in us that keeps us saved. Jesus did not save us so we could continue sinning however he knows we will and he is prepared to deal with it.

Initial salvation.

Sanctification- process where God continues his work in us, he polishes us or as scripture says he molds us into the vessel he chooses for us to be.

Glorification-where sin is no more.

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#21
Apr 16, 2013
 
Tell me your understanding of impossible. You said that's what it says .... so what does it mean?

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