Dave P

Lexington, KY

#84 Jul 4, 2013
Since this is about coc, I have a thought question.

*Philip got sent to preach to one eunuch in a deserted place. He was from Ethiopia. After his conversion he went on his way rejoicing.

The question is this- how much "doctrine" could this guy have known? Anybody think Philip laid out the "five acts of worship" before he sent the eunuch on his way? What would the first century Ethiopian church have looked like?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#85 Jul 5, 2013
Indeed a good question; one I have given thought to as well. It seems he told the eunuch a few things for sure. Obviously the Gospel. Baptism was taught as well which means repentance also was taught. I doubt it was laid out as 5 acts though.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#86 Jul 5, 2013
The Ethiopian Church still exists. The Orthodox Ethiopian Church has always worshipped on the Sabbath - from then till today.

Does that tell you anything?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#87 Jul 5, 2013
And where did the Lord ever say that worship to God is about 5 acts of worship?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#88 Jul 5, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
The Ethiopian Church still exists. The Orthodox Ethiopian Church has always worshipped on the Sabbath - from then till today.
Does that tell you anything?
Once again you do not tell the whole story. They worship on Saturday or Sunday.

They also believe in the true presence. Does that tell you anything?

2. The Times of Worship

Church Services
One can distinguish two types of church service in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, indoor and outdoor. The former is conducted in the Holy of Holies by priests and deacons. A minimum of five persons, two priests and three deacons, is required to celebrate Mass. In certain monasteries a minimum of seven persons is still required. The celebrants are required to abstain from food for at least twelve hours in advance. The sacramental bread and wine are prepared by one of the deacons in the compound of the churchyard, in a small building known as the Bethlehem. The times of the services depend upon fasting periods and holy days. During fasting periods the service commences at 1 p.m. In some churches and monasteries it may begin as late as 3 p.m. The normal duration of a service is about two hours, but it may be lengthened or shortened upon occasions. At Easter, Mass is celebrated at 1 a.m. and at Christmas about 4 a.m. is the usual hour. On Sundays the service usually commences at 6 a.m., although it may start earlier and in some monasteries and churches the usual hour is 5 a.m. In some churches in Addis Ababa, the service now beings at 7 a.m. and at 8 a.m. on Saturdays except on Holy Saturday when the service is conducted at midday.

The times of the outdoor services, conducted by priests and Debteras also vary. On Sundays the service begins at 7 a.m. until replaced by the service in the Holy of Holies. During fasting seasons, the service commences at 6 a.m. and continues until the beginning of Mass at 1 p.m. There is also a short service towards the end of the Mass which consists mainly of the reciting of Qene, or verse which is epic in type.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#89 Jul 5, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Since this is about coc, I have a thought question.
*Philip got sent to preach to one eunuch in a deserted place. He was from Ethiopia. After his conversion he went on his way rejoicing.
The question is this- how much "doctrine" could this guy have known? Anybody think Philip laid out the "five acts of worship" before he sent the eunuch on his way? What would the first century Ethiopian church have looked like?
I know the answer to that. Catholic. Just check the history on it.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#90 Jul 5, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again you do not tell the whole story. They worship on Saturday or Sunday.
They also believe in the true presence. Does that tell you anything?
2. The Times of Worship
Church Services
One can distinguish two types of church service in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, indoor and outdoor. The former is conducted in the Holy of Holies by priests and deacons. A minimum of five persons, two priests and three deacons, is required to celebrate Mass. In certain monasteries a minimum of seven persons is still required. The celebrants are required to abstain from food for at least twelve hours in advance. The sacramental bread and wine are prepared by one of the deacons in the compound of the churchyard, in a small building known as the Bethlehem. The times of the services depend upon fasting periods and holy days. During fasting periods the service commences at 1 p.m. In some churches and monasteries it may begin as late as 3 p.m. The normal duration of a service is about two hours, but it may be lengthened or shortened upon occasions. At Easter, Mass is celebrated at 1 a.m. and at Christmas about 4 a.m. is the usual hour. On Sundays the service usually commences at 6 a.m., although it may start earlier and in some monasteries and churches the usual hour is 5 a.m. In some churches in Addis Ababa, the service now beings at 7 a.m. and at 8 a.m. on Saturdays except on Holy Saturday when the service is conducted at midday.
The times of the outdoor services, conducted by priests and Debteras also vary. On Sundays the service begins at 7 a.m. until replaced by the service in the Holy of Holies. During fasting seasons, the service commences at 6 a.m. and continues until the beginning of Mass at 1 p.m. There is also a short service towards the end of the Mass which consists mainly of the reciting of Qene, or verse which is epic in type.
No, I was not telling the whole, but making a very specific point, which you have supported, that they still worship on the Sabbath. Is He able to be present only when their specified numbers are present? Hardly. He is present with each of His own - all the time - we can never escape His presence, but we can deny Him and His Spirit when we refuse to hear Him and reject allowing the Spirit to write on our hearts what He was given to do.

The multiple 'where two or more are gathered in My name' has to do with judgment and is in keeping with the Torah standards for conviction by two or more witnesses - not worship.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#91 Jul 5, 2013
I suppose that using the logic above, christians cannot worship God except on saturday or sunday and hope we get it right or we perish.

I thank God I can worship him on any day of the week. Legalism get in the way loving and serving God- steals his joy and peace.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#92 Jul 5, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
The Ethiopian Church still exists. The Orthodox Ethiopian Church has always worshipped on the Sabbath - from then till today.
Does that tell you anything?
Perhaps we aren’t “bound” to any particular day. If so, we all should stop Wednesday night meetings. I have a few books on the Sabbath which the Authors makes good points for Saturday. Honestly, I have no issue with Saturday or Sunday. A good case can be made for both days. I’m not so sure any “day” is BINDING. In Acts, at times, they met daily, on the Sabbath, and the first day of the week. I think we can get our focus upon a “day” and overlook the purpose of gathering together. Perhaps a good study would be:“why we assemble.” Is it to honor a certain day of the week? I don’t think so.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#93 Jul 5, 2013
Going out to buy a new car today. I hate all of the lies and deceit, especially the bait and switch games. There is no way to get out of there in less than two to four hours even if you pay in cash.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#94 Jul 5, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Going out to buy a new car today. I hate all of the lies and deceit, especially the bait and switch games. There is no way to get out of there in less than two to four hours even if you pay in cash.
CarMax. No hassle. Get a car with 10,000 miles on it. Write a Check and go home.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#95 Jul 5, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Going out to buy a new car today. I hate all of the lies and deceit, especially the bait and switch games. There is no way to get out of there in less than two to four hours even if you pay in cash.
Good luck with the car. Car salesmen could make good preachers!
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#96 Jul 5, 2013
Bobby: I suppose that using the logic above, christians cannot worship God except on saturday or sunday and hope we get it right or we perish.

I thank God I can worship him on any day of the week. Legalism get in the way loving and serving God- steals his joy and peace.

Randy: Perhaps we aren’t “bound” to any particular day. If so, we all should stop Wednesday night meetings. I have a few books on the Sabbath which the Authors makes good points for Saturday. Honestly, I have no issue with Saturday or Sunday. A good case can be made for both days. I’m not so sure any “day” is BINDING. In Acts, at times, they met daily, on the Sabbath, and the first day of the week. I think we can get our focus upon a “day” and overlook the purpose of gathering together. Perhaps a good study would be:“why we assemble.” Is it to honor a certain day of the week? I don’t think so.

Dave- I agree with both of the above. I don't agree with the notion that we worship God only on a specific day, specific place and specific time. We are called to assemble. The purpose? To build others up; and to draw unbelievers to the Lord if they are present.

Jesus' statements in John 4 seem to end the idea of "worship" at a specific place and time. As Randy points out, Sabbath, everyday, and Sunday were observed in Acts. We have no specific COMMAND that the Lords' Day (Sunday) is THE day. Sabbath is a shadow; and Hebrews makes it clear our sabbath is something greater than a day of rest on this earth.

Honoring "holy days" according to Paul was a matter of personal belief and conscience. Nothing wrong either way with either observing or not observing Jewish feasts, new moons, sabbaths, etc. The truly circumcised heart, out of love, will make sure that the person is assembling with the brethren, which is the purpose to begin with.

Personally, I would rather see our service times move back to noon or a little later on Sundays. Let everyone get their sleep in, get a meal- that way they aren't hungry or asleep when the time arrives!
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#97 Jul 5, 2013
From what I see, the Ethiopian church looks like a mixture of Judaism, with orthodox/catholic influence from around the 400s. Reading online history, appears to be little information from the first century until the fourth.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#98 Jul 5, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Personally, I would rather see our service times move back to noon or a little later on Sundays. Let everyone get their sleep in, get a meal- that way they aren't hungry or asleep when the time arrives!
That’s actually a good idea. Many people work schedules that require them to only have Saturdays and/or Sundays to sleep in. Moving the time up later would allow people to get some extra sleep that they may not get during the weekdays.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#99 Jul 5, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
That’s actually a good idea. Many people work schedules that require them to only have Saturdays and/or Sundays to sleep in. Moving the time up later would allow people to get some extra sleep that they may not get during the weekdays.
This idea also sounds like anathema, but I believe that perhaps one service on Sunday (or Saturday for you sabbath people) instead of two may be a better way to go.

Randy, BW, and Bobby: how many times did you hear sermons in the coc talking about how those SMO'S (Sunday morning only) weren't going to make it to heaven because they weren't faithful enough? Or those who forsake the midweek assembly aren't faithful enough? We have made 2 services on Sunday and a midweek service a LAW and if you break the law, you aren't faithful, you don't love Jesus.

One of my mentors said people couldn't spiritually "make it" on one service a week. Yet in his congregation there were several whose jobs allowed them to only make it once a week- hospital, ambulance service, etc. I know of one man who works in a state prison who can only attend on a Sunday night. I haven't attended a midweek service in over 3 years, being on second shift.

Less time- so that means we would need MORE BIBLE. Good instruction, encouragement, and fellowship. I also like the smaller group ideas Bobby often mentions.

The world is changing and leaving the church behind. Perhaps the church should think of adapting some of her pet ideas (not the gospel) to help those we're trying to reach. And making attendance laws doesn't help the cause.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#100 Jul 5, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>

Randy, BW, and Bobby: how many times did you hear sermons in the coc talking about how those SMO'S (Sunday morning only) weren't going to make it to heaven because they weren't faithful enough? Or those who forsake the midweek assembly aren't faithful enough? We have made 2 services on Sunday and a midweek service a LAW and if you break the law, you aren't faithful, you don't love Jesus.
Ive even seen letters posted on the "church bulletin board" in the coc blasting those who failed to attend the tent meetings regularly. Odd how we claim the "building" inst the church but act as though it is.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#101 Jul 5, 2013
Exactly what WIL was talking about, calling them our man made temples. I was taught that if the elders decided extra services were necessary, failure to attend was rebellion. This church had no elders! Yet we had night and midweek services. Guess we then disobeyed the evangelists commands.

In those articles about the Ethiopian church, many of them have altars and an ark in them. There's your temple idea.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#102 Jul 5, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I was not telling the whole, but making a very specific point, which you have supported, that they still worship on the Sabbath. Is He able to be present only when their specified numbers are present? Hardly. He is present with each of His own - all the time - we can never escape His presence, but we can deny Him and His Spirit when we refuse to hear Him and reject allowing the Spirit to write on our hearts what He was given to do.
The multiple 'where two or more are gathered in My name' has to do with judgment and is in keeping with the Torah standards for conviction by two or more witnesses - not worship.
Saturday or Sunday. The CC worships every day.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#103 Jul 5, 2013
Dave, you and Randy are right on track about days and times of worship. My church does not have sunday evening or wednesday evening services. We do have a lot of activities to be involved in, including home group meetings where each group decides the day and the time. There are special events regularly happening in our church-ladies bible class, teachers doing financial seminars, etc. It is a busy place.

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