Drawing the line where God draws it
Mike Peterson

United States

#21 May 29, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong mopman. They violate the whole "binding and elevating traditions to scripture" thing, plus sacrificing Christ on a daily basis in the mass which amounts to blasphemy, not to mention idolatry and other such things. Elevating the church to a position never intended, having two heads, etc. As Randy said earlier, if Jesus was here, He'd deal with that-and when He returns He will.
I think Matthew 23 also addresses them very well.
Dave: We go back to Authority. Jesus elevated the Church to the pillar of Truth, not the Church.

Who on this forum has the authority to speak for God?
mopman

United States

#22 May 29, 2013
You Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"

The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. You seem a good student who will reach the same viewpoints as the Church if you press forward.

You ask what happened to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment? Um, no JesusCreed! The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. You need to investigate things before you comment.

Catholics have 2,000 years of Church teaching and the Magisterium to interpret Scripture. Step on over and put that Protestant fluff behind you. You see how confused they are! It is so many of them it can be a task to keep track. How do you think the Church made it without the Bible? Seriously, answer this. The Church existed long before the Bible.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#23 May 29, 2013
Mopman: Catholics have 2,000 years of Church teaching and the Magisterium to interpret Scripture. Step on over and put that Protestant fluff behind you. You see how confused they are! It is so many of them it can be a task to keep track. How do you think the Church made it without the Bible? Seriously, answer this. The Church existed long before the Bible.

If "church teaching" and the magisterium (?) contradict the Bible, and they do, then they are worthless spiritually. Is it better to be confused and look for truth, or be absolutely sure but yet be dead wrong? I would take the former.

The OT was already written, and NT scripture being written, during the early years of the church. The notion that the church didn't have the word of God for 300 years is absolutely wrong and totally ridiculous. A myth.
mopman

United States

#24 May 29, 2013
To better understand, go here. http://www.fisheaters.com/
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#25 May 29, 2013
Has anyone else here read Psalm 103 lately? Of the Psalms, it speaks quite openly to those of God from David till now, and certainly even the gentile Christians. We can get in these debates so quickly and hit the ball back and forth across the net of public opinion or personal viewpoint, but we also need to remember the fullness of the grace He holds towards His own redeemed people.

I like the plain reading from 'The Complete Jewish Bible'

"Bless ADONAI, my soul!
Everything in me, bless his holy name!
Bless ADONAI, my soul,
and forget none of his benefits!

He forgives all your offenses,
he heals all your diseases,
he redeems your life from the pit,
he surrounds you with grace and compassion,
he contents you with good as long as you live,
so that your youth is renewed like an eagle's.

AADONAI brings vindication and justice
to all who are oppressed.
He made his ways known to Moshe,
his mighty deeds to the people of Isra'el.
ADONAI is merciful and compassionate,
slow to anger and rich in grace.
He will not always accuse,
he will not keep his anger forever.
He has not treated us as our sins deserve
or paid us back for our offenses,
because his mercy toward those who fear him
is as far above earth as heaven.
He has removed our sins from us
as far as the east is from the west.

Just as a father has compassion on his children,
ADONAI has compassion on those who fear him.
For he understands how we are made,
he remembers that we are dust.
Yes, a human being's days are like grass,
he sprouts like a flower in the countryside -
but when the wind sweeps over, it's gone;
and its place knows it no more.
But the mercy of ADONAI on those who fear him
is from eternity past to eternity future,
and his righteousness extends
to his children's children,
provided they keep his covenant
and remember to follow his precepts.

ADONAI has established his throne in heaven;
his kingly power rules everything.
Bless ADONAI, you angels of his,
you mighty warriors who obey his word,
who carry out his orders!
Bless ADONAI, all his works,
in every place where he rules!
Bless ADONAI, my soul!"

So maybe the simple answer is to fear God and keep the conditions He placed on the covenant?
This Psalm makes me consider the grace He has towards us as being beyond what I now know. Guess that's why we're encouraged to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?:-)
mopman

United States

#26 May 29, 2013
Mike Peterson

United States

#27 May 29, 2013
mopman wrote:
http://www.fisheaters.com/sept uagint.html

a great explanation of why protestant bibles dont have the complete written word of God.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#28 May 29, 2013
Dave P wrote:
It appears to me that if:
Someone knowingly holds something false;
So for instance the use of Ezra 10 to force divorce on others even though there is no example of it being used for this in the Bible is a false belief and use of scripture, so that would fall into your category right?
Dave P wrote:
someone elevates tradition, or nullifies God's word;
So a perfect example of this would be when a group withholds the Lord's Table from someone they deem not worthy instead of allowing a man to judge himself as the word of God says to do, that would be an example right?

1 Cor 11: 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
Dave P wrote:
Someone causes others to stumble by their beliefs and teachings;
So for example if a group forces someone to be baptized a second time in contradiction of the word of God where clearly God says that you can only put on Christ one time, that there is no re-crucifying Christ to yourself a second time thus causing the one being baptized in Jesus name a second time of sinning against God, this would be an example of someone stumbling because of the traditions of men being placed above the authority of Jesus Christ right?
William

Columbus, GA

#29 May 29, 2013
Wow.

Sounds like works to me.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#30 May 29, 2013
BW had a good post above.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#31 May 29, 2013
To WIL:

First off welcome back. Missed you around here. To answer your questions, YES, YES, AND YES. Those could all be examples, and those who do so will answer to God for that.

I wholeheartedly pray that many people would LEAVE the ministry to save their souls from judgment. Teaching the word is serious business, and leading others astray or being careless with doctrine is dangerous.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#32 May 30, 2013
mopman wrote:
http://www.fisheaters.com/sept uagint.html
Perhaps God used men as he done the donkey :-) Maybe the Bible is complete.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#33 May 30, 2013
Dave P wrote:
BW had a good post above.
Hopefully someone 'got it.'

Coming from a family of 'preachers'- both CoC and Methodist - I have to conclude it's a very challenging profession. The ones who realized the versions we had were not exact in all things, that quotes were not exact between the OT and NT, realized some things were best not forced upon people, but allowed some grace for God to judge the matter - but the principle all too often went beyond the actual matter to support the doctrines of the Church they were preaching at. And on the other side, they also went beyond what caution with the word of God should indicate. And all too often the harshest judgments from both sides were wrong in my humble opinion - especially by this time in my life and after much study.

That's why the Psalm seems so relevant today. And if the Jews managed to divide into groups with what had been given before, what's up with all the division since the reformation?

A saying was made on a message board years ago that hit a nerve and stays in my mind, as it so relates to the matter:

Re-investigate all you've been told is true. Reject that which offends your soul.

The levels of ignorance exhibited today were unimaginable just a few decades ago, but which seeds of doubt have flourished? In the age of programmed 'instant' society, values also seep into the religious sector. The solution to mens problems - did Jesus teach any 'instant' solutions that were a one time fix to the problems of mankind? And how can we honestly say we love Him when we habitually turn to anyone else to know the truth that He said will set us free from the pathway to destruction to be on the pathway that leads to eternal life.

Too many cooks and teachers have all but ruined the soup;-)

We need to see what God said - but what preacher/minister has the freedom in any denomination/sect/whatever you call yourselves - to tell the actual truth - and still have a job? Elderships or non-elderships have no seal of truth - and neither do any of the 'councils' or 'popes'.

And this is because people have almost no regard for what He actually taught, but want to have people tell them what they want to hear.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#34 May 30, 2013
I can no more imagine a CoC preacher getting up and preaching that it's OK to use instruments with singing than I can for a Methodist preaching the need to be immersed per the very fulfillment of the promise of God to Abraham in the Seed, Jesus Christ.

These are but two things that should easily be agreed upon.

And which will say God never changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

Or that Jesus wants disciples who abide in whatever He taught?

Or that the words from Jesus are above the words given by any other man in history?

And just as Revelation says, when God, through His judgments upon men that could lead them to repent - men did not repent.

It's simple in principle, but not in action: repentance is to turn back and do what God said to do in the first place - to return to Him and what He has declared true and good. Per Acts 2:38,39, one has not repented until they do what God said to do about it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#35 May 30, 2013
Fearing God, obeying His command and carrying out His word - sure seem to be a themes in the Psalm. And so is His grace towards His own and that He is mindful of how we're made and that we're just the dust of the earth.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see that this Psalm doesn't say God demands perfection?

I think John had it right in his epistles - there are lines that have been drawn that we need to know and accept as true. The theme should be to return to the first love - the love that Jesus said is true - that we keep His words.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#36 May 30, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps God used men as he done the donkey :-) Maybe the Bible is complete.
The Bible was created in 382 AD unchanged for 1100 years until Father Luther got rid of 7 books of the OT.

You read an incomplete Bible. You don't have all of the WRITTEN word of God much less all of the word of God.

Why do you accept a Catholic NT and not the Catholic OT?
mopman

United States

#37 May 30, 2013
Creed, step on over; be the Church. You are all over this site on other issues. It's hard to deny facts, isn't it? Do tell why you have s bible that's incomplete.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#38 May 30, 2013
Barnsweb is a true voice of reason here. Randy, if it matters, I support his views in the last several posts because I do believe them to be the scriptural view. Instead of arguing endlessly about catholicism, lets read and review some of BW's points:

Fearing God, obeying His command and carrying out His word - sure seem to be a themes in the Psalm. And so is His grace towards His own and that He is mindful of how we're made and that we're just the dust of the earth.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see that this Psalm doesn't say God demands perfection?

I think John had it right in his epistles - there are lines that have been drawn that we need to know and accept as true. The theme should be to return to the first love - the love that Jesus said is true - that we keep His words.

I could not agree more. The thought from the psalm especially touched me. God does know us, how we're made, how we think-yet He doesn't demand perfection, He shows grace, mercy, and understanding, and if we FEAR Him (there is a lot to fearing God), He is with us. Beautiful. And that does answer many of these questions.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#39 May 30, 2013
BW:Coming from a family of 'preachers'- both CoC and Methodist - I have to conclude it's a very challenging profession. The ones who realized the versions we had were not exact in all things, that quotes were not exact between the OT and NT, realized some things were best not forced upon people, but allowed some grace for God to judge the matter - but the principle all too often went beyond the actual matter to support the doctrines of the Church they were preaching at. And on the other side, they also went beyond what caution with the word of God should indicate. And all too often the harshest judgments from both sides were wrong in my humble opinion - especially by this time in my life and after much study.

Dave- point well taken and agree. You mention bending to whatever congregation they preached at:
BW-We need to see what God said - but what preacher/minister has the freedom in any denomination/sect/whatever you call yourselves - to tell the actual truth - and still have a job? Elderships or non-elderships have no seal of truth - and neither do any of the 'councils' or 'popes'.

Dave-man you stomping on toes big time now! I think many people are afraid that if their true convictions came out, they would be out of a job and have nowhere to preach. I personally am coming to the conclusion that my beliefs don't fit it any group 100%. I definitely am not hardline n/I coc. One of these days I can see leaving the "located ministry" because I will not go and get a four year college degree to be the pulpit pastor of some big group, get hundreds of thousands in debt and make a comfortable living peddling God's word. Which is what people call the ministry today.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#40 May 30, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
I can no more imagine a CoC preacher getting up and preaching that it's OK to use instruments with singing than I can for a Methodist preaching the need to be immersed per the very fulfillment of the promise of God to Abraham in the Seed, Jesus Christ.
And which will say God never changed the Sabbath to Sunday?
Or that Jesus wants disciples who abide in whatever He taught?
Or that the words from Jesus are above the words given by any other man in history?
And just as Revelation says, when God, through His judgments upon men that could lead them to repent - men did not repent.
It's simple in principle, but not in action: repentance is to turn back and do what God said to do in the first place - to return to Him and what He has declared true and good. Per Acts 2:38,39, one has not repented until they do what God said to do about it.
I think you're right. This coc preacher has said before in the congregation that I thought instruments were acceptable, and due to the Sunday school lesson this week, will do so again. I have also stated there before that Sunday is not the sabbath day, although you and I disagree on other matters concerning the sabbath. Many will not and can not do that-because they are dependent on a job, and are fearful of having no income. That's another reason I am going to keep working at my job-gives freedom not having to depend on preaching, freedom to speak truth.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Martinsville Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Catholics (Feb '14) Jul 22 William 3,351
Christians Murder American Indians (Jan '12) Jun '16 Kevo8263 32
Sarah Smith nude ! (Jul '12) Jun '16 sarasmith 2
The Bible teaches that the Earth will never end (Apr '15) May '16 Anonymous 38
thomas jefferson edwards Apr '16 nuks67 2
Norm Fields – FORMER employee of Johnny Robertson (Feb '12) Apr '16 GunFighter 29
Stop erasing my comments! Apr '16 Truth teller 1

Martinsville Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Martinsville Mortgages