Early Birds false doctrine

Early Birds false doctrine

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Mike Conner

Baton Rouge, LA

#1 Nov 30, 2012
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This was one of the main verses Early Bird used in trying to prove ALL men are reconciled to God. This is a false doctrine, that is basically universalism.

But if we look at the passage we can clearly see that it is NOT saying alien sinners are reconciled to God.

First what does reconciled mean? This definition is from the Random House Websters college dictionary: to cause to become friendly or peaceable again, to bring into agreement or harmony, make compatible or consistent..... So man, and alien sinner, is brought back into a right relationship with God.

Now in this passage Paul is talking to Christians. They have already obeyed the gospel. Acts 2:10.(Strangers at Rome) Paul is telling them what took place when they obeyed the gospel. V. 9 says they were justified with His blood. That happen when they were enemies. And as enemies they were reconciled. But HOW? How were they justified and reconciled by His death and blood? Paul is not telling them they were in a right relationship when He shed His blood on the cross. He is telling them NOW, they are justified and reconciled. He is telling them the process of their justification and reconciliation. Yes, the blood was shed on the cross for remission of sins, but Paul is telling them NOW they are reconciled.

The next chapter he tells them HOW.......

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Then in verse 17, Paul tells them what they did. They OBEYED that form of doctrine. They were servants of sin, and from the heart they obeyed that form of doctrine. Verse 18, being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. They were NOT servants of righteousness, and FREE from sin, until AFTER obeying that form of doctrine. Can you have REMISSION of sins and not be FREE from your sin?

Now, here is a question.....Is a SERVANT of sin reconciled(become friendly or compatible with) to God? Is a ALIEN sinner at peace with God?

James 4:8 says sinners are to draw close to God. If they are become friendly with God or at peace with God, then why are they needing to draw close to Him and to cleanse their hands? Why would they need to cleanse their hands, if they are already clean?

If you are reconciled you are in a right relationship with God. You have become friendly with God. To say that all alien sinners are in a right relationship with God, reconciled, is universalism. You cant get away from it. If alien sinners are in a right relationship with God there is NO reason for them to trust Christ, NO reason to repent, NO reason to confess before men, and surely NO reason for them to be baptized. There is also no reason for them to work righteousness. Acts 10:35. There is NO reason for them to be faithful unto death. Rev. 2:10. And many other things that are commanded by God for a Christian to do. WHY? Because that alien sinner is already IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, according to Early Birds false, unbiblical doctrine.

The truth of what the bible teaches, is that we are brought into a right relationship with God when we obey the gospel. We are reconciled and added to the one church, the one body, the church of Christ.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#2 Dec 1, 2012
Baptism in Romans 6 in not water baptism.

You also are wrong about reconciliation as well. The bible plainly teaches otherwise.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The verse says reconciled to God by the death of his Son WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 *****Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ*****,(by grace ye are saved;){by...: or, by whose grace} 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.(KJV)

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:19

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the][Father][that] in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless

Romans 5:10 clearly states that Jesus died for the sins of everyone. This was accomplished through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross. It says, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son." When we were enemies is past tense. Enemies means lost, unbelieving and unsaved persons. This means everyone was reconciled to God through the death of Jesus on the cross, but reconciliation is not salvation or eternal life. The second part describes those who are saved. It says, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (resurrection)." This means those who are saved believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily. Salvation is eternal life with God by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are VERY confused, Mike. Keep try, my friend.
Mike Conner

United States

#3 Dec 1, 2012
Did you not see the questions I asked? One of us is not understanding reconciliation.

My question is....can a servant of sin be in a right relationship, reconciled, with God?
Heath 72

Rockwall, TX

#4 Dec 1, 2012
What passages are H2O (water) baptism passages if Romans 6 is not? www.roysecitycoc.org
abc

Martinsville, VA

#5 Dec 3, 2012
Heath 72 wrote:
What passages are H2O (water) baptism passages if Romans 6 is not? www.roysecitycoc.org
The no water deal is such a cop-out. Water is mentioned in scripture as the means of baptism. Why did Philip baptize the eunuch in water? Acts 8:36. What did John baptize Jesus in? Did Jesus get baptized incorrectly? If so why was God well pleased with it?

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#6 Dec 3, 2012
I Corinthians 10.1, 2

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." In this case the Jews certainly were not immersed.

As to Romans 6:3,4b: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death". This passage cannot be used to prove immersion. In the first place, if it is taken to mean water baptism, many of us believe that it proves too much, and that we would then logically have to believe in Baptismal Regeneration. Surely, it is not the water baptism which baptizes us into Christ's death, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Secondly, however, even if it is taken to mean water baptism, this passage means more than the totally inadequate picture of burial that going under the water can give. What these verses teach is. the great and marvelous reality that, when we accept Christ as our Saviour, we actually have died with Him.

Jesus also spoke of a baptism with fire. This was a reference to punishment in hell fire. Notice Matthew 3:11-12. This "baptism is when, "He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

There was Holy Spirit baptism that Jesus promised to give to the Apostles.(Acts 1:5)

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#7 Dec 3, 2012
Mike Conner wrote:
Did you not see the questions I asked? One of us is not understanding reconciliation.
My question is....can a servant of sin be in a right relationship, reconciled, with God?
Baptism in Romans 6 in not water baptism.

You also are wrong about reconciliation as well. The bible plainly teaches otherwise.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The verse says reconciled to God by the death of his Son WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 *****Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ*****,(by grace ye are saved;){by...: or, by whose grace} 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.(KJV)

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:19

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the][Father][that] in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless

Romans 5:10 clearly states that Jesus died for the sins of everyone. This was accomplished through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross. It says, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son." When we were enemies is past tense. Enemies means lost, unbelieving and unsaved persons. This means everyone was reconciled to God through the death of Jesus on the cross, but reconciliation is not salvation or eternal life. The second part describes those who are saved. It says, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (resurrection)." This means those who are saved believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily. Salvation is eternal life with God by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Mike Conner

Mobile, AL

#8 Dec 3, 2012
So, we should believe that Romans 6 is NOT water baptism because you say....."surley it isnt water that baptizes us into the death of Christ" Well, thanks for your OPINION. But we want to know what the bible says.

Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

This verse says there is ONE baptism. Now you say that Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 12 are spirit baptism. And by you saying that you admit that whatever the baptism is, it is to bring us into the death of Christ, and the ONE body of Christ. Therefore being essential to salvation. Whatever that baptism is.

Yes there are more that one baptism mentioned in the New Testament. But there is only one baptism that will bring us into the body of Christ. At the time of Acts 2 there were 2 baptisms. The Holy Spirit baptism that the apostles were baptized in, and water baptism. Spirit baptism was accompanied by miraculous gifts. We see this in the apostles in acts 2:1-4 and the household of Cornelius, in acts 10.

The baptism mentioned in matt. 28:19 is to have human administrators. Could the apostles baptize in the spirit? No. Only Christ can do that. Matt. 3:11. So we can conclude that this is water baptism and it was commanded unto the end of the world. This is the baptism we are commanded to have. This is what we can obey. How can we obey a spiritual baptism?

If you look at Romans 6, and Col. 2:12, we can easily see that you are immersed INTO something and brought back UP out of the same substance. Water baptism makes perfect sense. But if it is spirit that we are baptized into, then we are raised up out of the spirit. Are you contending that we are brought up out of the spirit when we are raised to walk in newness of life?

1 Peter 3:21 clearly mentions water. The only passage that comes close to spiritual baptism is 1 Corinthians 12:13. First, if this is spirit baptism are you willing to say that we should not baptize in water? Because if it is, then there is no place for water baptism according to Eph. 4.

But lets look at the passage. It says that this baptism brings us into the ONE body, or the church. Eph. 1:22-23. And the church is identified with the Lords kingdom. Matt. 16:18-19. So this baptism brings one into the kingdom. We can see that Christians are in the kingdom from Col. 1:13, and John was in the kingdom according to Rev. 1:9.

Like I said we need to reason about the evidence and see what ALL of Gods word says. If we look at John 3:5 we know that to enter the kingdom one must be born of water and spirit. Is that two baptisms, or is the spirit using water to add us to the kingdom? Also, we can see that this is water baptism with Eph. 5:26, and the washing of water by the word. And further, Jesus said that the WORDS he spoke were SPIRIT and life. John 6:63. Can we not conclude that by the spirits teaching, that we are baptized into the body of Christ, and have are sins washed away by the blood of Christ. Acts 22:16, Rev. 1:5.

Finally, when we are interpreting the bible and we see certain words, we must use the context to help us know what they are. Unless there is CLEAR evidence that the baptism mentioned is spirit baptism, like Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10, there is no reason to believe the baptism discussed in Romans 6 is not water baptism.
Mike Conner

Mobile, AL

#9 Dec 3, 2012
night-owl-early-bird wrote:
<quoted text>
Baptism in Romans 6 in not water baptism.
You also are wrong about reconciliation as well. The bible plainly teaches otherwise.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
The verse says reconciled to God by the death of his Son WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 *****Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ*****,(by grace ye are saved;){by...: or, by whose grace} 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.(KJV)
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:19
God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the][Father][that] in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless
Romans 5:10 clearly states that Jesus died for the sins of everyone. This was accomplished through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross. It says, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son." When we were enemies is past tense. Enemies means lost, unbelieving and unsaved persons. This means everyone was reconciled to God through the death of Jesus on the cross, but reconciliation is not salvation or eternal life. The second part describes those who are saved. It says, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (resurrection)." This means those who are saved believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily. Salvation is eternal life with God by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Again you did not answer my question. Can a servant of sin be in a right relationship with God?

Your position is so absurd, that's why you keep repeating yourself. This is universalism to the extreme. You said Romans 5:10 means..."those who are saved believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily." I agree. Does that mean alien sinners, while they are in a life of sin, are in a right relationship with God, before ANY acts of obedient faith? Remember the definition of reconciled.

Will you please answer this question.....If all sinners are reconciled, brought back into a friendly relationship with God, then WHY in the world would they need to repent or do anything that is commanded by God for a christian? I have asked this question several times.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#10 Dec 4, 2012
Rom 5:10 For if,

*******when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God*******

by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The verse says reconciled to God by the death of his Son WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 *****Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ*****,(by grace ye are saved;){by...: or, by whose grace} 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
Randy

Axton, VA

#11 Dec 4, 2012
Rom. 6 is a reference to BOTH water and Spirit. The baptism in Romans 6 is water but the work is Spiritual. If not, the water becomes saving – baptismal regeneration.

In baptism, God performs an operation - Col. 2:11-12 shows a Spiritual operation of God in baptism, not made with hands.

Whenever water baptism is mentioned it always has a Spiritual aspect otherwise it would be baptismal regeneration.

Acts 2:38, Peter commands repentance and baptism for the purpose to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Once the alien sinner OBEYS the commands via faith, God, in baptism, raises the alien sinner spiritually from the dead.

When the alien sinner is ‘baptized’ in water, the water has no saving power at all yet it’s an act ordained/authorized by God for the purpose to provide remission of sins through the blood of Jesus. Just as God used a cross via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work through Jesus, God now uses water baptism via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work IN BAPTISM. Jesus submitted Himself to the cross - God done the work. The alien sinner submits himself to water baptism - God does an operation to him Col. 2:11-12.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#12 Dec 4, 2012
Free online videos @ www.roysecitycoc.org

Searching For Truth.

Why Are There So Many Churches?

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#13 Dec 4, 2012
I’d go further and suggest that to argue that the Apostle as water baptism in his mind in any shape or form here is to give a prominence to baptism that the Apostle Paul never gives to it. . . .The conclusion at which I arrive is that baptism by water is not in the mind of the Apostle Paul at all here; instead it is the baptism wrought by the Spirit. It is the plain, explicit teaching of I Corinthians 12:13, and indeed in the whole of the chapter, as it is in other places where the Apostle treats of this particular aspect of truth. And I argue further that the use of this term 'planted together', in verse 5, supports what I am saying. All are agreed that the idea of planting has nothing to do with baptism at all; it is rather the idea of grafting a shoot into a tree. 'Planted together' - in unity, identification - that is the meaning of the term. Paul is not using the figure of baptism in any shape or form there, but is still emphasizing this unity. That also is the work of the Spirit. The verse says baptized INTO Jesus NOT water. Paul uses the same speech when talking about some being baptized into Moses. Its merely a term that denotes unity.
abc

Martinsville, VA

#14 Dec 4, 2012
Randy wrote:
Rom. 6 is a reference to BOTH water and Spirit. The baptism in Romans 6 is water but the work is Spiritual. If not, the water becomes saving – baptismal regeneration.
In baptism, God performs an operation - Col. 2:11-12 shows a Spiritual operation of God in baptism, not made with hands.
Whenever water baptism is mentioned it always has a Spiritual aspect otherwise it would be baptismal regeneration.
Acts 2:38, Peter commands repentance and baptism for the purpose to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Once the alien sinner OBEYS the commands via faith, God, in baptism, raises the alien sinner spiritually from the dead.
When the alien sinner is ‘baptized’ in water, the water has no saving power at all yet it’s an act ordained/authorized by God for the purpose to provide remission of sins through the blood of Jesus. Just as God used a cross via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work through Jesus, God now uses water baptism via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work IN BAPTISM. Jesus submitted Himself to the cross - God done the work. The alien sinner submits himself to water baptism - God does an operation to him Col. 2:11-12.
Yes!! Finally someone else gets it. Spot on, Randy.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#15 Dec 4, 2012
Randy wrote:
Rom. 6 is a reference to BOTH water and Spirit. The baptism in Romans 6 is water but the work is Spiritual. If not, the water becomes saving – baptismal regeneration.
In baptism, God performs an operation - Col. 2:11-12 shows a Spiritual operation of God in baptism, not made with hands.
Whenever water baptism is mentioned it always has a Spiritual aspect otherwise it would be baptismal regeneration.
Acts 2:38, Peter commands repentance and baptism for the purpose to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Once the alien sinner OBEYS the commands via faith, God, in baptism, raises the alien sinner spiritually from the dead.
When the alien sinner is ‘baptized’ in water, the water has no saving power at all yet it’s an act ordained/authorized by God for the purpose to provide remission of sins through the blood of Jesus. Just as God used a cross via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work through Jesus, God now uses water baptism via the hands of men to accomplish a Spiritual work IN BAPTISM. Jesus submitted Himself to the cross - God done the work. The alien sinner submits himself to water baptism - God does an operation to him Col. 2:11-12.
This was one of the points I was trying to get across a few months ago when I was posting regularly. We do what God tells us, and He does the work. Simple.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#16 Dec 5, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
This was one of the points I was trying to get across a few months ago when I was posting regularly. We do what God tells us, and He does the work. Simple.
Randy if you are reading the words good look closer at this statement. If some body hears the gospel and decides to repent and get dunked in water the coc say you must also have in your mind that God saves you in water and if you dont understand this my friend you are hitting hell in a handbasket. Its not so simple when you look at what they teach.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#17 Dec 5, 2012
night-owl-early-bird wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy if you are reading the words good look closer at this statement. If some body hears the gospel and decides to repent and get dunked in water the coc say you must also have in your mind that God saves you in water and if you dont understand this my friend you are hitting hell in a handbasket. Its not so simple when you look at what they teach.
What point are you trying to make with this statement?

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#18 Dec 5, 2012
It simple. I was baptized but I believe I am saved before I am baptized the coc wont accept me cause they say I didnt get baptized in order to be saved. My baptism requires a rebaptism to hear them say so and if not the coc say I am not saved.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#19 Dec 5, 2012
I don't believe you should worry much about whether the coc "accepts" you. We should all worry more about whether or not Jesus accepts us.

That being said, I believe the biblical record is clear that baptism is a necessary part of salvation. Jesus said that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. If what we practice and believe doesn't match what the word teaches, then it doesn't matter who or what groups "accept" us.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#20 Dec 5, 2012
New Guy wrote:
I don't believe you should worry much about whether the coc "accepts" you. We should all worry more about whether or not Jesus accepts us.
That being said, I believe the biblical record is clear that baptism is a necessary part of salvation. Jesus said that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. If what we practice and believe doesn't match what the word teaches, then it doesn't matter who or what groups "accept" us.
I am bit taken back by this comment. I see you ran round the jest of my statement. I will word it bit different for you. Is it in the bible that I must understand baptism is for remsision of sins and if I dont understand this am I saved even tho I have been baptized but believe I was saved first before I was baptized and does the bible say I should be baptized again if I believe I am saved first before baptism

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