Comments (Page 3)
I completely disagree with BW. The entire case against Paul is made up of twisted scriptures and biased interpretations of what the man actually said and taught. Seems to be more of a case of justifying doctrine and belief than factual.
If you don't like what Christianity has done to Paul's doctrine, prove to them what Paul actually taught. Don't slander and throw him out.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
"It is finished." Guess not.
Barnsweb clearly does not believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on that cross "fulfilled" anything whatsoever. Pretty soon, he'll be discounting Jesus along with Paul and Luke, preferring instead to wait on "the true Messiah" as the rest of the fake Jews today do.
Ever learning, and never able to come unto the knowledge of the truth, so a guy once said.
Actually, I do believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and His resurrection, and Pentecost did fulfill Scripture and the promise of God to bless all nations through the Seed of Abraham-David, based upon the prophecy to Eve, that through Her seed the serpents head would be crushed.
Obvious to me is that you still haven't spent enough time in discipleship to the Master Teacher to realize what He taught is not the same as Paul taught - about the words of God, commandments of God, promises of God, Justice of God, or that works and fruits do matter - in spite of Paul's saying they don't. Paul was the original blowviator. All I'm trying to figure out now is if there is anything that can be trusted from Paul, as even Balaam prophesied some truth that is recorded in the Bible and used to this day by the Jews. But what did Paul teach as truth before he started to lead people away from doing what the Lord said mattered and taught a once made confession of faith VS the faith that continues to grow in spirit, truth and works till the end - ever alive in the Root.
'His' work was finished - not yours or mine.
That's a natural reaction to have when you trust that those who put the Bible together did the right things to determine who spoke for God and had the God given approval to add to the Holy Scriptures. But evidence is that this wasn't done as God said to do it. Study about how we can know who God said we are to listen to, and who we are NOT to hear. The directions mainly come from the Torah - but also from Isaiah, Jesus and Johns synopsis in his epistles.
Just take Isaiah,'If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony, there is no light in them.' Paul undoubtedly spoke against the Law and Testimony and perverted who Moses and Jesus said even gave the Law to Israel. Moses and Jesus say God gave it to Israel. Paul said beggarly angels did. Paul couldn't even get that part straight and had to devalue to words from God to pretend to give words that were absolutely against the gospel as preached by Jesus Christ.
If you don't see it, you'd be advised to prove me wrong. After some study it seems that Jesus said those who are ensnared by the lie of this false Balaam will be gathered up to be cast into the fire.
At least read the book before casting judgment -
"Jesus' Words Only"
Although I don't agree with Mr. DelTondo on everything, his case against Paul is very compelling - and the case is made directly from the Scriptures - not just clever arguments. He also shows from every angle that Paul did not teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, but did teach, as he plainly said,'my gospel', and cursed anyone who didn't believe what he said.
If God is true, then Paul is a liar. If Luke is true, Paul is a liar. If Jude is true, Paul is a liar. If John is true, then Paul is a liar. If Jesus is true, then Paul is a liar. If Paul spoke what is recorded in Scripture -then he is not only a liar, a false apostle, and it can be easily found out when we use the direction God commanded to be used to determine who spoke truth from Him, and how to know if they did not - that we not be deceived and ensnared by lies. Even true prophets can go bad, and that is the point Jesus was making when preaching the gospel, as well as the words He gave from heaven after Paul had died. We have been warned to not believe him - at least to 'those who have ears to hear.'
It really boils down to this fact:
Are we careful to observe what God said we are to believe and do? Or do we just presume to rest our faith upon the faith taught by our fathers and trust our eternal destiny into their hands?
Jesus taught from the Torah. Paul said to ignore it and do what seems expedient or non offending to yourself. Example - Paul taught fornication is a sin against ones self. Jesus taught it is a sin against God.
just one of hundreds....who was right?
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Looks like we are toast, according to your reasoning about Jesus and his teachings. According to Matthew's account, He wasn't even sent to preach to the likes of you, me, or anyone else alive today. He sent the 12 disciples to these same people.
The lost sheep of the house of Israel. The 12 tribes.
Us poor lowly Gentiles are hosed.
Read to the end of the last chapter of Matthew - He gets to us:-)
He told the 11 to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever he had commanded them.
Go back and take a look at that list.
I have looked at it a number of times and you can see my list at my web site. Although not yet refined to eliminate redundancy, the total is about 800 commandments or so, and given some retelling of the same teachings in the gospel accounts, it may well be only a few hundred.
Who did He tell to preach the good news to? Only Jews? Or to all nations? They were to teach others the same things He had first commanded them. They were called to make disciples of Him. Have you ever heard a Church or preacher take that charge seriously? Let alone that we need to keep His commandments?...all of them, not just the ones we want to - no picking and choosing or cutting and pasting, but the whole of His word through the end of Revelation.
FYI, where in Revelation do we see that faith alone or grace alone saves anyone? Rather we find He tells them there works are not complete and their faith is actually dead - just as the passage from James that refutes the lies of Paul.
see 'the list' in the middle of the topics.
If you manage to "keep" those laws and commandments, you will be the very first person to do it.
Doesn't it bother you that no one has ever been able to do it? What does that tell you?
Of all those hundreds of laws given surely one of them has the power to impart life.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Lets just kill the good news and tear that grace stuff out of the bible.
Or maybe we could become a catholic and spend half of eternity in purgatory till we finally get it right-well maybe.
Abraham was justified by faith before any law was given.
If we will look around us today our problem in growing the church is finding people who will believe.
If you think Paul contradicts Jesus, you're in error, not Paul. His words properly interpreted are in complete harmony with Jesus.
Simply put, explain Peter's words about Paul. Peter says it is scripture- you say otherwise. I believe Peter.
It also requires mental gymnastics and assumptions to say that Paul is the Balaam of Revelation. More like, personal opinions.
Are you still ignorant, or intentionally lying about what the CC teaches?
The problem of growing the Church is SS.
BW, even Stephen in Acts 7 acknowledged that angels were present at Sinai during the giving of the law. This was Jewish belief. Paul did not invent this, and Deuteronomy 33:2 and quotes in the Psalms agree with this. Don't let your personal opinion of Paul cloud your mind from the truth.
From the CCC:
I. JESUS AND THE LAW
At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus issued a solemn warning in which he presented God's law, given on Sinai during the first covenant, in light of the grace of the New Covenant:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.329
Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333
This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus' time to an extreme religious zeal.334 This zeal, were it not to lapse into "hypocritical" casuistry,335 could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfillment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.336
The perfect fulfillment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son.337 In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he will "faithfully bring forth justice".338 Jesus fulfills the Law to the point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first covenant".339
The Jewish people and their spiritual leaders viewed Jesus as a rabbi.340 He often argued within the framework of rabbinical interpretation of the Law.341 Yet Jesus could not help but offend the teachers of the Law, for he was not content to propose his interpretation alongside theirs but taught the people "as one who had authority, and not as their scribes".342 In Jesus, the same Word of God that had resounded on Mount Sinai to give the written Law to Moses, made itself heard anew on the Mount of the Beatitudes.343 Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it by giving its ultimate interpretation in a divine way: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old... But I say to you..."344 With this same divine authority, he disavowed certain human traditions of the Pharisees that were "making void the word of God".345
Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him...(Thus he declared all foods clean.)... What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts..."346 In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it.
If man was capable of achieving salvation by his works, then Jesus died on the cross in vain.
Grace plus the law = purgatory.
Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse."
In the old hard line coc they had a similar doctrine even though they denied purgatory. The story is the same will all law keepers and works for salvation doctrines. They feel that they must add a certain amount of works "always an undetermined amount" to the work of the cross. That is the reason we hear phrases like this: "I hope I am saved" or "yes I will be saved, but I am not there yet".
Under those systems no one has complete confidence in their salvation. Do you want to know why? It is because all of us know there are some things in our nature we cannot yet control and we know that we will eventually sin again and again. We hate it when we do sin but know we will.
If only we can die before we sin the next sin and either be prayed up or done all the works of penance. Then and only then will the cross be enough.
Do you see yourself in this???
Historically, Second Peter was rejected by the Church until the RC adopted it about 350-397. Previous, in the first and second century the well founded 'early church fathers' rejected II Peter as a spurious and not actually written by Peter.
Note specifically who, of independent sources, said Paul was one of the apostles? Not in Acts. Luke didn't say so. Peter and none of the Twelve did. So who are we left with besides Paul declaring himself an apostle in the epistles he wrote? As Jesus said,'If I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.' Paul lied, and Jesus affirms this in Revelation 2.
Jesus said the Pharisees problem was rejecting the law of God and substitution of their own laws. Pharisees also rejected the commandments of God. Your quote is nice, but not according to His teaching? God said if someone had signs, but lead people from doing what God had said to do, that we are to NOT hear anyone who leads us from His direction. This includes Paul, but not Jesus, Peter, John, James or Jude.
Go study what Jesus taught. Note where and how many times He taught salvation by faith, salvation without works, salvation that was unconditional to doing whatever He taught. In fact, show us where Jesus taught we are saved by grace, or that heaven is a gift of the grace of God.
Paul was a rank liar, and Jesus said so.
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