Law vs. Grace

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New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#181
Jan 30, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
??? OK, can you please explain that?
Who are you asking that?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#182
Jan 30, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
New Guy Said
Again, doing what Jesus said in order to be saved are not our "works", and they are definitely not part of the "law".
Bingo there is a true statement.
This is the statement that just didn't seem to add up to me that might have some explanation to clarify...
The Law (Torah) is elemental instruction in righteousness, then the other books of Moses on the law and the retelling of the law in practical experience after 40 years - if there is something Jesus was consistant on it was pulling people back from the man made ordinances to the commandments and precepts as first given. They were called to do those things - their 'works', in a sense, were to do what God had told them. In like manner, we are called to abide in hearing and doing whatever Jesus taught... and while we don't do so except because we believe and have faith in Him that this is what He taught and that it mattered - even in Revelation we find 'I know your works' all through His letters to the seven Churches.
Since the Commandments of God are part of the 'work' we are to do, I just fail to see a distinction somehow, except that the truth and grace from Jesus Christ are at a much highter and greater level than anything they had in the OT that foretold of Him and His works.
Can you perhaps connect some dots on the comment? As James said, faith apart from works is dead, so I just don't get the distinction to seperate what God joined to be together... that's all...
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#183
Jan 30, 2013
 
To explain, those like Bobby believe that when we obey any commandment, any action that has been deemed necessary for salvation, then we are attempting to get to heaven by "our own works or righteousness.". It's our effort, our righteousness that gets us there. It's a "law" that we're trying to keep.
I don't agree with that. When we are commanded to do certain things by Jesus, if we obey them we're not trying to work or earn our salvation. We're simply doing what the Master says is necessary. The work of God is to believe on Him who He has sent, and to keep His commandments. If He has told us to be baptized for forgiveness, how can that be "our work" when He commanded it?
The issue is the definition of work. James does say that faith without works is dead. But James is speaking about works of faith. Obeying the Lord amounts to works of faith. Most in the religious world try to turn works of faith into works of the law, and that just doesn't work.

Hope that clarifies. Basically its a rejection of the evangelical idea.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#184
Jan 31, 2013
 
Any doctrine or theology that leads us to think we don't have need to do what God said - that tells us we have no need to do anything because Jesus did it all for us - seems to fit in the category of a doctrine of Demons. Satan took what God said and was crafty to cast doubt on the facts of what He said to lead to nulify the need to obey God and hear Him in all things.

They like to quote verses that invite the unknowlegable to think God had done away with the Law. Jesus was careful to compare the laws God has used to establish the very creation to the laws that God has given that should govern men, and to say as long as those laws that govern nature are in effect, that the laws and instructions in righteousness that govern men are also in effect - as they come from the Eternal God.

Why they choose to NOT believe 'whatever that Prophet tells you' is either wilfull ignorance or that they have believed the great lie.

The word of God stands forever, just as the words of the Son - they 'shall by no means' perish.
calvin

Martinsville, VA

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#185
Jan 31, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Any doctrine or theology that leads us to think we control God - seems to fit in the category of a doctrine of Demons. Far as works of the Law - no flesh can be saved by them yet we are to walk in them - its thats simple.

Since: May 10

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#186
Jan 31, 2013
 
calvin wrote:
Any doctrine or theology that leads us to think we control God - seems to fit in the category of a doctrine of Demons. Far as works of the Law - no flesh can be saved by them yet we are to walk in them - its thats simple.
Are you calling the Law a doctrine of demons?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#187
Jan 31, 2013
 
When you guys come to agreement on which laws/commands are necessary and which are not, please let me know. Then prove that you have stopped breaking any of them.

You see it is great to be perfect because that is exactly what God requires without the blood of the cross.

Many of you hold to the idea that those who believe in grace/free gift salvation, insinuating that they do not have any obedience or good works. That is a lie! The difference is we do not believe those works cause salvation or keeps us saved and you guys do.

How many of you have ever considered obeying this one:

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#188
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
When you guys come to agreement on which laws/commands are necessary and which are not, please let me know. Then prove that you have stopped breaking any of them.
You see it is great to be perfect because that is exactly what God requires without the blood of the cross.
Many of you hold to the idea that those who believe in grace/free gift salvation, insinuating that they do not have any obedience or good works. That is a lie! The difference is we do not believe those works cause salvation or keeps us saved and you guys do.
How many of you have ever considered obeying this one:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with O eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
So you disagree with the words I posted from Jesus that said those things were necessary for salvation? I never said that evangelicals believe in a license to sin or have no good works. Simple point- I believe Jesus when He said those things were necessary for us to do to obtain salvation.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#189
Jan 31, 2013
 
That last one you listed is obviously a figurative meaning. Are we to literally do something to damage the temple of the Holy Spirit? But we are to do our best to eliminate things in our lives that can lead us astray.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#190
Jan 31, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
So you disagree with the words I posted from Jesus that said those things were necessary for salvation? I never said that evangelicals believe in a license to sin or have no good works. Simple point- I believe Jesus when He said those things were necessary for us to do to obtain salvation.
My point was that there is very little agreement on which commands are necessary. Why stop with one command of Jesus?

Why do you ignore these scriptures, surely if those on water baptism can stand alone, then these and many more like then should stand alone.

There is nothing in scripture which says we are justified by water baptism but plenty of scripture which says we are justified by faith.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#191
Jan 31, 2013
 

Judged:

1

That has been one of my contentions with you all along. "Stand alone.". See, you accuse me and others of standing alone on baptism and ignoring the rest. That isn't true. Not one thing stands alone. Baptism alone does nothing. Neither does grace alone, faith alone, or even Christ alone. Salvation isn't an either-or proposition. I agree with all the scriptures you posted, but could make a case you were isolating faith only and ignoring the rest as well.

To know the will of God, we have to put the whole counsel of God together. Nothing "stands alone".

Since: May 10

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#192
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
When you guys come to agreement on which laws/commands are necessary and which are not, please let me know. Then prove that you have stopped breaking any of them.
You see it is great to be perfect because that is exactly what God requires without the blood of the cross.
Many of you hold to the idea that those who believe in grace/free gift salvation, insinuating that they do not have any obedience or good works. That is a lie! The difference is we do not believe those works cause salvation or keeps us saved and you guys do.
How many of you have ever considered obeying this one:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
Well Bobby the Law of Moses does not apply to you.

Since: May 10

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#193
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
When you guys come to agreement on which laws/commands are necessary and which are not, please let me know. Then prove that you have stopped breaking any of them.
You see it is great to be perfect because that is exactly what God requires without the blood of the cross.
Many of you hold to the idea that those who believe in grace/free gift salvation, insinuating that they do not have any obedience or good works. That is a lie! The difference is we do not believe those works cause salvation or keeps us saved and you guys do.
How many of you have ever considered obeying this one:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
Now bobby is that last attempt literal or figurative?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#194
Jan 31, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
That has been one of my contentions with you all along. "Stand alone.". See, you accuse me and others of standing alone on baptism and ignoring the rest. That isn't true. Not one thing stands alone. Baptism alone does nothing. Neither does grace alone, faith alone, or even Christ alone. Salvation isn't an either-or proposition. I agree with all the scriptures you posted, but could make a case you were isolating faith only and ignoring the rest as well.
To know the will of God, we have to put the whole counsel of God together. Nothing "stands alone".
I was making the case that the scripture has 10 times more to say about faith than water baptism.

Jesus was on his cross alone where not even God would help him. He alone is the way the truth and the life. What I am saying is that the gospel is not water baptism it is the death burial and resurrection of Christ. He alone is savior, water baptism is not the gospel. Prove that to be wrong. Water baptism is not the gospel of our salvation.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Notice that Paul does not preach water baptism, he preaches the cross. If water baptism were the gospel then Paul would not have said this!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#195
Jan 31, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text> Now bobby is that last attempt literal or figurative?
Good point, it can be taken literal by some, just like you take water baptism to be literally the gospel when it is the symbol of our regeneration. That is how the term baptismal regeneration was birthed, by changing an ordinance into a sacrament.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#196
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I was making the case that the scripture has 10 times more to say about faith than water baptism.
Jesus was on his cross alone where not even God would help him. He alone is the way the truth and the life. What I am saying is that the gospel is not water baptism it is the death burial and resurrection of Christ. He alone is savior, water baptism is not the gospel. Prove that to be wrong. Water baptism is not the gospel of our salvation.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Notice that Paul does not preach water baptism, he preaches the cross. If water baptism were the gospel then Paul would not have said this!
Nice try at twisting Paul's words and getting baptism out of the picture. Sorry, but context ruins your theory here, but I think you've heard that a time or two before.
Faith may be mentioned more than baptism in the scripture, bit that does not negate what Christ and the apostles taught about it. If they say its for forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit, then they are telling the truth-and if the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, and saved by faith, then that is true as well. One verse or ten verses do not negate the others- the sum of Thy word is truth.
If Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved", He meant it. When Peter said it was for remission of sins and the Spirit he meant it as well.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#197
Jan 31, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try at twisting Paul's words and getting baptism out of the picture. Sorry, but context ruins your theory here, but I think you've heard that a time or two before.
Faith may be mentioned more than baptism in the scripture, bit that does not negate what Christ and the apostles taught about it. If they say its for forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit, then they are telling the truth-and if the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, and saved by faith, then that is true as well. One verse or ten verses do not negate the others- the sum of Thy word is truth.
If Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved", He meant it. When Peter said it was for remission of sins and the Spirit he meant it as well.
It is evident that we we read the same scriptures we see different things. I used to see it the same way you do, until I took my trained theology out of the picture.

I wish you fellows could see that spirit baptism is the regeneration power that water baptism symbolizes. It is clear that most old time cocers seldom even considered the second half of acts 2:38 because their focus was totally on baptismal regeneration. In fact most of the coc folks I grew up with denied the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Knowing this, it makes perfect sense that they were not concerned with the fact that the Holy Spirit is the active means of regeneration, not water. Water is the symbol not the reality. Now days many coc accept HS indwelling but still want to incorporate it into the failed doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Personally I do not see how one can be saved by denying the Holy Spirit, even if they have been water baptized 100 times.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#198
Jan 31, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
It is evident that we we read the same scriptures we see different things. I used to see it the same way you do, until I took my trained theology out of the picture.
I wish you fellows could see that spirit baptism is the regeneration power that water baptism symbolizes. It is clear that most old time cocers seldom even considered the second half of acts 2:38 because their focus was totally on baptismal regeneration. In fact most of the coc folks I grew up with denied the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Knowing this, it makes perfect sense that they were not concerned with the fact that the Holy Spirit is the active means of regeneration, not water. Water is the symbol not the reality. Now days many coc accept HS indwelling but still want to incorporate it into the failed doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Personally I do not see how one can be saved by denying the Holy Spirit, even if they have been water baptized 100 times.
Your theology now is just as trained as everyone else's, you just believe a different trained theology. As for the rest of the post, it is actually quite good. See, I do recognize that God, the Spirit is the active person in our new birth. I have been trying to make that clear for a long time. That however still does not destroy what the apostles and Jesus taught about when and where the regeneration takes place.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#199
Feb 1, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
When you guys come to agreement on which laws/commands are necessary and which are not, please let me know. Then prove that you have stopped breaking any of them.
You see it is great to be perfect because that is exactly what God requires without the blood of the cross.
Many of you hold to the idea that those who believe in grace/free gift salvation, insinuating that they do not have any obedience or good works. That is a lie! The difference is we do not believe those works cause salvation or keeps us saved and you guys do.
How many of you have ever considered obeying this one:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
Bobby, you have some personal responsibility, don't you? There are a nubmer of teachings Jesus gave about who will be excluded from the Kingdom of God. There are a number of teachings where He is clearly giving information of who will go to hell with Satan. And yes, there must be some room in-between, such as when He was discussing the law and those who don't do certain things about it and also teach others to like-wise not keep the elements they don't keep. These were said to be 'least' in the kingdom. There are many who are not excluded, but who are not allowed to enter the City of the King.
So you need to go see what Jesus said about it. If you are a Christian, you will side with what Jesus taught. Now go and find out what He said on the topic. It isn't the same thing that the Greek translations imply Paul to be saying - but the clearest way to know is in what Jesus said about it. If you don't get it, then perhaps you could see what the apostles had to say about it. And don't forget - Paul told us he is the least of the apostles, so you need to put the important of who says what in this order:
1 God
2 Jesus
3 Moses
4 Apostles and Prophets
5 Paul
You waste your time developing false constructs and straw-man arguements from mistranslations of Paul... at least it's a waste of time so far as I'm concernted - but maybe some will enjoy it or engage you.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#200
Feb 1, 2013
 
Added note: The 'eye for an eye' of the OT was not taken literally and restitution was made - not vengence. Do you think Jesus was teaching literal eye or hand be cut off - or was He addressing the importance of not sinning in a comparative way, telling us how serious sin is?

Care to find fault with that too?:-)

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