Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#61 Sep 13, 2013
Returning now to the discussion of looking at Paul:

Where can one find one line proofs that Paul declares the Law abolished for Christians?

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 are good examples. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity (even) the law of commandments in ordinances" and "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. And having spoiled principlalities and powers, he made a show of them openly,, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the ne moon, or of the Sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ."

Where did Jesus' teachings or the prophecies of/by Him state such an idea?
William

Birmingham, AL

#62 Sep 13, 2013
"Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 are good examples."

Those Ephesian and Colossian gentiles that he wrote those letters to didn't have anything to do with the Israel of God, Moses, Abraham, or any of the commandments, ordinances, and rituals of Jewish customs.

And they certainly weren't "brought under" any of those laws when Christ died at Calvary.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#63 Sep 13, 2013
Hardly, there were Jews scattered all across Asia. And historically, we know there were Jews in the Asian Church.

If God made a promise to Israel and didn't keep it, why do you expect He'll reward those who reject what Jesus said to follow Paul?

If God made a promise to Israel and will keep it, then we as gentiles also can place confidence that He will also be true to us as His will be to Israel. God desires and seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and truth. No lie is of the truth. So anything Paul said that was not 'according to the Law and the Testimony', then it cannot be light or truth.

Can it?

If it can, perhaps you could explain why you think so?
William

Birmingham, AL

#65 Sep 14, 2013
There was a mystery, hid in God from before the foundation of the world, that was not revealed in th Old Testament scriptures, that gentiles who had nothing to do with Israel and her laws would be saved by the grace of God through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the long prophesied Jewish messiah for their sins. This was to happen without believing Israel going to the gentile. Satan can read the scriptures too and knew of the coming redeemer, who would restore all things and he knew that salvation would go to the gentiles through what was accomplished. That is why he and his minions labored so hard to kill Jesus, thinking that they had won the battle with God to prevent the prophecies about Jesus from coming to pass. How wrong they were. God had in mind a new apostle all along, who would accomplish his grace in manner that Satan could not foretell.

Grace, through faith, for the Jew and Gentile alike. Not of works, lest any should boast. Everyone can be saved based on Christ's merits, not any of their own, which God will NOT ACCEPT.

Paul's gospel is not the same gospel as that which was given to John the Baptist or Peter. It is grace, apart from works of any kind. It cannot be mixed with Peter's gospel. It was a mystery, and sadly, it remains a mystery even today.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 spells out Paul's gospel, and it is not what was given by Christ to the disciples or what was given to Peter in Acts 2. Nowhere does Peter tell anyone that Christ died FOR their sins, was buried, and resurrected FOR their justification. Quite the opposite, actually.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#66 Sep 14, 2013
Yes, it is quite opposite, and since Jesus said it's about keeping what He taught and abiding in His words (which much speak of works of the disciple or non-disciple/believer or unbeliever), why do you think to hear Paul instead?

Sort of akin to God telling Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the one tree, then Satan came and changed some points of what God said to disagree with what God told them and lead them to do that one thing that God said not to do...

So even though Jesus never taught it, you believe it because Paul said it?
Anonymous Proxy

Westerville, OH

#67 Dec 28, 2013
Reading today (1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.) this seems also to be something Paul did different than other apostles. Acts 5 it seems like God killed Ananias and Sapphira not Peter. No apostle today kills people, assuming you want to use the definition of apostle as starting a church. It seems very unusual to me.
Anonymous Proxy

Westerville, OH

#68 Dec 28, 2013
We have in our churches today very similar situations a s 1 Co chapter 5 and we do not turn them over to Satan. It appears to be a command for the church by Paul to me.
William

Maryville, TN

#69 Dec 28, 2013
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
We have in our churches today very similar situations a s 1 Co chapter 5 and we do not turn them over to Satan. It appears to be a command for the church by Paul to me.
Does Satan come around periodically, asking if you have any donations?
Anonymous Proxy

Westerville, OH

#70 Dec 28, 2013
William wrote:
<quoted text>
Does Satan come around periodically, asking if you have any donations?
He hasn't asked me for any lately. Has he asked you?
Dave P

Clarkesville, GA

#71 Dec 28, 2013
Proxy says: Reading today (1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.) this seems also to be something Paul did different than other apostles. Acts 5 it seems like God killed Ananias and Sapphira not Peter. No apostle today kills people, assuming you want to use the definition of apostle as starting a church. It seems very unusual to me.

We have in our churches today very similar situations a s 1 Co chapter 5 and we do not turn them over to Satan. It appears to be a command for the church by Paul to me.

*****Those are from the Proxy.

FROM DAVE P- God did kill A & S, not Peter. Handing someone over to Satan in Paul's letter doesn't mean to kill them. Instead, it means something like what Jesus said here:

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Now compare with 1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]

Seems like, as usual, Paul and Jesus are on the same page.
William

Maryville, TN

#72 Dec 28, 2013
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>He hasn't asked me for any lately. Has he asked you?
April 15 is when he usually shows up.
Dave P

Clarkesville, GA

#73 Dec 28, 2013
William wrote:
<quoted text>
April 15 is when he usually shows up.
This year he shows up January 1. I have to pay a tax of $62 to pay for Obamacare. Funny thing is, no one else I talk to has heard of this. I have to pay this tax supposedly for three years until there is enough money to support the system. LOL LOL LOL.

We all know, once they start taking money, it never stops. This is in the form of payroll deductions BTW. Anyone else heard of this?
William

Maryville, TN

#74 Dec 28, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
This year he shows up January 1. I have to pay a tax of $62 to pay for Obamacare. Funny thing is, no one else I talk to has heard of this. I have to pay this tax supposedly for three years until there is enough money to support the system. LOL LOL LOL.
We all know, once they start taking money, it never stops. This is in the form of payroll deductions BTW. Anyone else heard of this?
Yes. The genie is now coming out of the bottle as to the magnitude of this trainwreck. I hope his party gets their clock cleaned in November.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#75 Dec 29, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Proxy says: Reading today (1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.) this seems also to be something Paul did different than other apostles. Acts 5 it seems like God killed Ananias and Sapphira not Peter. No apostle today kills people, assuming you want to use the definition of apostle as starting a church. It seems very unusual to me.
We have in our churches today very similar situations a s 1 Co chapter 5 and we do not turn them over to Satan. It appears to be a command for the church by Paul to me.
*****Those are from the Proxy.
FROM DAVE P- God did kill A & S, not Peter. Handing someone over to Satan in Paul's letter doesn't mean to kill them. Instead, it means something like what Jesus said here:
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Now compare with 1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]
Seems like, as usual, Paul and Jesus are on the same page.
I wonder why God killed Ananias and Sapphira just for telling a lie.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#76 Dec 29, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Proxy says: Reading today (1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.) this seems also to be something Paul did different than other apostles. Acts 5 it seems like God killed Ananias and Sapphira not Peter. No apostle today kills people, assuming you want to use the definition of apostle as starting a church. It seems very unusual to me.
We have in our churches today very similar situations a s 1 Co chapter 5 and we do not turn them over to Satan. It appears to be a command for the church by Paul to me.
*****Those are from the Proxy.
FROM DAVE P- God did kill A & S, not Peter. Handing someone over to Satan in Paul's letter doesn't mean to kill them. Instead, it means something like what Jesus said here:
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Now compare with 1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]
Seems like, as usual, Paul and Jesus are on the same page.
What Church are you to gong to tell?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#77 Dec 29, 2013
Sounds like Paul thought his spirit was omnipresent?;-)

Know Paul by what he said from BOTH sides of his mouth, not just the half you want to believe.
Anonymous Proxy

Costa Mesa, CA

#78 Dec 29, 2013
Dave P wrote:
FROM DAVE P- God did kill A & S, not Peter. Handing someone over to Satan in Paul's letter doesn't mean to kill them. Instead, it means something like what Jesus said here:
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Now compare with 1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]
Seems like, as usual, Paul and Jesus are on the same page.
I think Jesus is speaking of excommunication as Paul touches on in the last part of chapter 5. Apparently the church never did this(first part of chapter) and Paul took the action he did. I was studying this last night and most comments consider this excommunication but several do not. They consider it an action separate from any action the church could take, strictly an apostolic action. Paul did it before it seems 1 Ti 1:20. It is not real plain any other apostle did this. Elisha had similar power (2 Kings 2:23-24) but this was not done to Christians. I don't think it is plain in scripture that Jesus and Paul are on the same page here but they may be because of the 2 Kings verse.
Anonymous Proxy

Costa Mesa, CA

#79 Dec 29, 2013
The thing is we do not do this today.The Catholic church does not excommunicate our politicians and Supreme Court judges. They do not use these powers to remove these people. Why they even jumped into bed with Hitler. Did the Catholics do the same with their pedophile priests as Paul would have done? With their "who am I to judge" Pope the Catholic church doesn't seem at all like the church of the bible.
Anonymous Proxy

Costa Mesa, CA

#80 Dec 29, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
What Church are you to gong to tell?
Who do you say this verse is directed at Mike? Peter, all apostles,the church? Two of them are required to agree on it. They are required to take it before the church prior.

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#81 Dec 29, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Sounds like Paul thought his spirit was omnipresent?;-)
Know Paul by what he said from BOTH sides of his mouth, not just the half you want to believe.
You REALLY have comprehension problems don't you? Even Proxy recognizes that Paul and Jesus just may be speaking of the same thing. Don't look, your bias is showing.
You shouldn't speak in this manner when you either can't or just refuse to understand anything the man said.

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