Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#81 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Dodgeball. Didn't speak for God. Was asking questions. The question about David is important. When his child died, he said, "He cannot come back to me, but I can go to him". David was a man after God's own heart. He fully expected to be reunited with his son. He surely didn't believe his infant son to be lost.
Pure speculation on your part.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#82 Jul 3, 2013
Salvation by works:

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, I'll start off with an explanation of what purgatory is. Since this is a doctrine held almost exclusively by the Catholic Church, I will look to their own definition. The Catholic Encyclopedia says that purgatory is; "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

What does that mean more simply? According to the Catholic Church, a Christian must "make up" for or pay for their sins. This can be done on earth but if the fullness of God's justice is not satisfied by the time they die, they enter purgatory and suffer until full payment is made. Then, they may enter heaven.

Purgatory is thought to mirror hell in kind of punishment and intensity with the exception that it is temporary whereas hell is eternal. Therefore it is a pretty nasty place. Belief in purgatory is why Catholics often pray for the dead. It is believed that prayers on behalf of those in purgatory (and Mass celebrated specifically for them) can hasten their release. The general consensus is that almost everyone goes to purgatory before going to heaven because almost no one has finished paying for all their sins by the time they die.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#83 Jul 3, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Pure speculation on your part.
That's what the man said. What say ye? Or, what say your church?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#84 Jul 3, 2013
How about catholic teaching on infants?

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php...

Or how about those in catholicism struggling with this issue?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#85 Jul 3, 2013
In catholicism, is original sin a venial or mortal sin?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#86 Jul 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Salvation by works:
Just to make sure we are all on the same page, I'll start off with an explanation of what purgatory is. Since this is a doctrine held almost exclusively by the Catholic Church, I will look to their own definition. The Catholic Encyclopedia says that purgatory is; "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
What does that mean more simply? According to the Catholic Church, a Christian must "make up" for or pay for their sins. This can be done on earth but if the fullness of God's justice is not satisfied by the time they die, they enter purgatory and suffer until full payment is made. Then, they may enter heaven.
Purgatory is thought to mirror hell in kind of punishment and intensity with the exception that it is temporary whereas hell is eternal. Therefore it is a pretty nasty place. Belief in purgatory is why Catholics often pray for the dead. It is believed that prayers on behalf of those in purgatory (and Mass celebrated specifically for them) can hasten their release. The general consensus is that almost everyone goes to purgatory before going to heaven because almost no one has finished paying for all their sins by the time they die.
Does that mean that Lazarus in Luke 16 was a special kind of person, one who didn't go to purgatory?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#87 Jul 3, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Infants/kids are innocent. I had a childhood friend die in a car accident. I believe he was granted access to God because he was yet a small child. I already posted scripture that shows one must have faith, etc. Infants can't do this.
So non Christians can go to heaven, right? What age does the Bible say a child can have faith?

You go only by the Bible right?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#88 Jul 3, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Rather than play dodgeball, you tell me where unbaptized babies go when they die.
Only God knows who will go to heaven or hell.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#89 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Dodgeball expert. The Bible addresses these according to itself.
How about it Mike? Where do unbaptized infants go at death? What is your personal belief?
Only God knows.

I didn't have to worry about that. My children and grandchildren were baptized as the Apostles taught.

My kids were Christians.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#90 Jul 3, 2013
An unbaptized 2 day old child is a pagan?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Can that same 2 day old hear and have faith?

Answers, not dodgeball is what we want.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#91 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what the man said. What say ye? Or, what say your church?
Anything I say would be pure speculation as well. This topic has really no interest for me so I've not looked into the Church's teaching on the matter. I'm sure all you bashers would love for me to say l-i-m-b-o! But for me, unless and until an Ecumenical Council has ruled on the matter all other writings are simply opinions no matter who issued them. And it looks like there are lots of them beginning in the earliest Christian centuries. How do you answer the millions who firmly believe these babies are flying around with little wings like puti? How do you answer the millions who believe their pets are waiting for them just this side of heaven at a place called Rainbow Bridge? I say I just don't know.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#92 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Only God knows.
I didn't have to worry about that. My children and grandchildren were baptized as the Apostles taught.
My kids were Christians.
Were they old enough to hear and have faith?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#93 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Were they old enough to hear and have faith?
It is the new circumcision. The Church ruled early on you didn't even have to wait 8 days to baptized like the Jews do for circumcision.

Refusing the kingdom of God to your children was unheard of until 1800.

Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. This enabled him to say at his martyrdom. "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3). Justin Martyr (100 - 166) of the next generation states about the year 150, "Many, both men and women, who have been Christís disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15). Further, in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr states that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#94 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
An unbaptized 2 day old child is a pagan?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Can that same 2 day old hear and have faith?
Answers, not dodgeball is what we want.
According to you what is a 5 year old in your church? A Christian or pagan?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#95 Jul 3, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
My neise died before she was a month old. She was yet innocent ... incapable of repentance and belief in Jesus. I believe she was covered by the grace if God.
Of course people believe this. It is sad thing. It gives us comfort.

But only God knows.

With much confidence I knew my all my kids at 1 month old were going to heaven. They were baptized and had not committed any mortal sin.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#96 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course people believe this. It is sad thing. It gives us comfort.
But only God knows.
With much confidence I knew my all my kids at 1 month old were going to heaven. They were baptized and had not committed any mortal sin.
Your kids heard, believed, and repented then?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#97 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
It is the new circumcision. The Church ruled early on you didn't even have to wait 8 days to baptized like the Jews do for circumcision.
Refusing the kingdom of God to your children was unheard of until 1800.
Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. This enabled him to say at his martyrdom. "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3). Justin Martyr (100 - 166) of the next generation states about the year 150, "Many, both men and women, who have been Christís disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15). Further, in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr states that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament.
Dodgeball; no scripture; being "circumcised" and hearing and believing and repenting are not the same.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#98 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
According to you what is a 5 year old in your church? A Christian or pagan?
Answers, not dodgeball.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#99 Jul 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The catholics are right about original sin in the sense that they know that all men are in a fallen state without Jesus.
The church of Christ is right that children are kept safe but the age of accountability is questionable, no one knows exactly when that occurs or expires.
Since both catholics and church of christ are in the water baptism "saves" camp they can find common ground there. From this point the mode of water baptism and who administers it, is the issue.
Neither knows exactly how old testament people were saved, both probably believe salvation was based on keeping the law.
However we know that Father Abraham was justified by faith before any law was given. My contention is that we are all saved by faith like Abraham was.
Paul tells us that no law was given that could impart life Gal 3:21. He also said we are saved by Gods grace through our faith. The way I see it is that all generations of people from Adam till now are saved the same way because all are born in a sin/corrupted fallen world. The second Adam has come to give life to the lost.
So, if the water baptism and infallible pope issues were solved and settled we could all be brothers in the one and only Christ Jesus. His blood flows back from the cross to creation and forward to his return.
Bobby has broken the "tie". We just need to all get along. Believe what you want. Not.

What is the pillar and foundation of Truth again?

What are kids considered in your Church? They are not Christians are they?

Point me to the Bible verse of what non baptized kids are called.

Protestants can't have a complete Christian family for a long time.
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL

Wilmington, DE

#101 Jul 3, 2013

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