Errors of Catholicism
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#41 Jul 2, 2013
Repentance and belief are things individuals have to do themselves. When do infants believe and repent?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#42 Jul 2, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
Error: Celibate Priests
There is no Scripture that requires pastors be unmarried. Peter and the apostles were married (1 Cor. 9:5). The requirements for being a bishop or pastor state that a man "should be the husband" of one wife, which clearly provides for married ministers (1 Tim. 3:2). The Bible also warns that mandatory celibacy is a doctrine of demons, required by hypocritical liars (1 Tim. 4:1-3).
The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband (1 Cor. 7:32-34).

Jesus, like Paul, was unmarried and commended consecrated celibacy as a gift of God. That’s what he’s getting at in this incident from Matthew 19:9-12:

“And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” The disciples said to him,“If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” But he said to them,“Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

The idea was that celibacy is a higher calling, as well as a superior practical arrangement, given the responsibilities of the priesthood.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#43 Jul 2, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course a convert has to believe and repent to baptized.
Show me one example in history of a baby having to wait for some arbitrary age to be baptized from 32 AD to 1500?
Christ commanded that “disciples” and those who “believe” should be baptized (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15, 16).

Show me one infant in history who FOLLOWED in faith and BELIEVED thus baptized on faith in Jesus from 32 AD to 1500?

Babies eat, cry, and poop. They do NOT believe and do not exercise faith. Baptizing infants is 100% false. No Bible to back it up at all.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#44 Jul 2, 2013
So if we can't have infant baptism can we at least bring back nude baptism with everyone rubbed in oil like in the good old days?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#45 Jul 2, 2013
All recorded baptisms in the Bible follow personal conversion to Christ as evidenced by such words as believe, repent and calling on His name.(Acts 2:38; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12,13; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 16:14,15; Acts 16:32-34; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:4,5; Acts 22:16)- which infants cannot do.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#46 Jul 2, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Christ commanded that “disciples” and those who “believe” should be baptized (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15, 16).
Show me one infant in history who FOLLOWED in faith and BELIEVED thus baptized on faith in Jesus from 32 AD to 1500?
Babies eat, cry, and poop. They do NOT believe and do not exercise faith. Baptizing infants is 100% false. No Bible to back it up at all.
And they die. What happens then? Your kids were pagan up until when?

Don't pagans go to hell?

Did the 8 year old kid that got killed in the Boston Marathon go to heaven?

The Apostles would not have gotten on Jewish convert if it didn't include their heirs. Would no have happened.

The Bible does not say Thous shalt not baptize infants. You will say the Bible does not say Baptize infants.

That is why the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and not the Bible.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47 Jul 2, 2013
A couple of you non-Catholic Catholic experts are choosing to conveniently forget something. But then since you recognize no authority, have no history and cannot therefore participate. I can see how Apostolic Succession can be overlooked especially regarding Ecumenical Councils.

At the very time infant baptism was becoming standard practice for the early Church something else was going on. THE ROMAN PERSECUTIONS! Imagine if you were the Christian parent of a newborn facing an uncertain future at the hands of Nero you would most certainly baptize your baby. You cannot sit in your parent's basement typing away in 2013 and deny you would not and worse condemn those who did.

The authority passed to the Church through Apostolic Succession enables the Church to decide these and other matters. You may think the New Testament covers all the bases but it most certainly does not. What is the difference between the Church in the East and the West promulgating infant baptism and your church using Welchs? The Ecumenical Councils have the authority to do it and yours does not.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#48 Jul 2, 2013
Neither of you RCC addressed any of the scriptural points brought up by Randy. It was pillar this, council that; "logical" conclusions; "guess they all went to hell", etc.

The Bible addresses all of this stuff.

First off- why are children condemned from the start? What sin did they commit, are guilty of? What must they repent of? When do infants repent- no answer to these yet.

BCV for the instance where the apostles baptized an infant, where the infant repented and believed.
Question- did King David go to hell at death or what? How about those 20 years old and under in the wilderness during the Exodus?
Apostolic succession- BCV for that one.

Boys, all you've given us is "We're catholics, catholic is oldest, and we say so". It might work for you. That don't cut it with anyone else, nor with God.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#49 Jul 2, 2013
The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband (1 Cor. 7:32-34).

How about some context? If you think this supports a celibate priesthood your catholic interpreters are very sorry indeed. Paul was speaking of the "present distress" at Corinth. They were asking about marriage. Biblical Christianity is not divided up into clergy and laity. Read your boy Peter's first letter.

This whole infant baptism thing brings the whole Judaism revived thing into the spotlight.

Peter/popes= high priest
Rome= Jerusalem, temple
Catholic priesthood= Levites/scribes and Pharisees
Mass= daily sacrifices
Infant baptism= circumcision, old covenant
How many more can we name?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#50 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't become a Christian until baptism.
There would have not been 1 Jewish convert if their children were not included. Since Circumcision , thousands of years before Christ, God has included children in the Kingdom.
Not so fast. There is a naturally progressive order with the great commission.

1. Make disciples of Him. In a Christian home this starts early on, while teaching the child about Jesus, as mentioned on the web site link. The child develops in discipleship if they believe. Then the time comes when they, as disciples, want to be baptized per the very promised commandment of God in Christ as preached by Peter.

2. Then they are taught to continue to grow in and abide in His word - from childhood through adulthood.

Doesn't one have to come to Jesus and knowing Him and what He taught to become a following student of the Master Teacher?

How can one receive the promise of God without belief?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#51 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband (1 Cor. 7:32-34).
How about some context? If you think this supports a celibate priesthood your catholic interpreters are very sorry indeed. Paul was speaking of the "present distress" at Corinth. They were asking about marriage. Biblical Christianity is not divided up into clergy and laity. Read your boy Peter's first letter.
This whole infant baptism thing brings the whole Judaism revived thing into the spotlight.
Peter/popes= high priest
Rome= Jerusalem, temple
Catholic priesthood= Levites/scribes and Pharisees
Mass= daily sacrifices
Infant baptism= circumcision, old covenant
How many more can we name?
Do you think?

Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew.

The first Christians were all Jewish converts.

All of your doctrine comes from a 19th century personal interpretation of the Bible, ignoring 1800 years of Christianity.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#52 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Neither of you RCC addressed any of the scriptural points brought up by Randy. It was pillar this, council that; "logical" conclusions; "guess they all went to hell", etc.
The Bible addresses all of this stuff.
First off- why are children condemned from the start? What sin did they commit, are guilty of? What must they repent of? When do infants repent- no answer to these yet.
BCV for the instance where the apostles baptized an infant, where the infant repented and believed.
Question- did King David go to hell at death or what? How about those 20 years old and under in the wilderness during the Exodus?
Apostolic succession- BCV for that one.
Boys, all you've given us is "We're catholics, catholic is oldest, and we say so". It might work for you. That don't cut it with anyone else, nor with God.
Rather presumptuous for you to speak for God don't you think? But since you think you can maybe you could tell us what happened after the deaths of the first apostles.

BCV for Welchs and crackers if you please.
BCV for water tank in front if you please.
BCV for pulpit in front of the water tank if you please.
BCV for little tiny cups in nickel plated trays if you please.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#53 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Neither of you RCC addressed any of the scriptural points brought up by Randy. It was pillar this, council that; "logical" conclusions; "guess they all went to hell", etc.
The Bible addresses all of this stuff.
First off- why are children condemned from the start? What sin did they commit, are guilty of? What must they repent of? When do infants repent- no answer to these yet.
BCV for the instance where the apostles baptized an infant, where the infant repented and believed.
Question- did King David go to hell at death or what? How about those 20 years old and under in the wilderness during the Exodus?
Apostolic succession- BCV for that one.
Boys, all you've given us is "We're catholics, catholic is oldest, and we say so". It might work for you. That don't cut it with anyone else, nor with God.
So you speak for God now. You ARE a Pope.

The Bible addresses these according to who?

What did Jesus say about a Bible? nothing

What did Jesus say about the Church? He would protect it until the end of ages. What was the only Church?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#54 Jul 3, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Not so fast. There is a naturally progressive order with the great commission.
1. Make disciples of Him. In a Christian home this starts early on, while teaching the child about Jesus, as mentioned on the web site link. The child develops in discipleship if they believe. Then the time comes when they, as disciples, want to be baptized per the very promised commandment of God in Christ as preached by Peter.
2. Then they are taught to continue to grow in and abide in His word - from childhood through adulthood.
Doesn't one have to come to Jesus and knowing Him and what He taught to become a following student of the Master Teacher?
How can one receive the promise of God without belief?
On the other hand, nowhere do we read of children raised in believing households reaching the age of reason and then being baptized. The only explicit baptism accounts in the Bible involve converts from Judaism or paganism. For children of believers there is no explicit mention of baptism—either in infancy or later.

This poses a problem for Baptists and Bible Christians: On what basis do they require children of believers to be baptized at all? Given the silence of the New Testament, why not assume Christian baptism is only for adult converts?

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults

The apostolic Church baptized whole "households" (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), a term encompassing children and infants as well as servants. While these texts do not specifically mention—nor exclude—infants, the very use of the term "households" indicates an understanding of the family as a unit. Even one believing parent in a household makes the children and even the unbelieving spouse "holy" (1 Cor. 7:14).

Consider, too, that Fathers raised in Christian homes (such as Irenaeus) would hardly have upheld infant baptism as apostolic if their own baptisms had been deferred until the age of reason.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#55 Jul 3, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Repentance and belief are things individuals have to do themselves. When do infants believe and repent?
So you consider all children in your church pagans?
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL

Dahlonega, GA

#56 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
So you consider all children in your church pagans?
NO,no,no, Dave is not Catholic. You are thinking of the way Catholic priests treat their altar boys. He is a Protestant, completely different belief system.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#57 Jul 3, 2013
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL wrote:
<quoted text>NO,no,no, Dave is not Catholic. You are thinking of the way Catholic priests treat their altar boys. He is a Protestant, completely different belief system.
RCS = a genuine POS
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL

Dahlonega, GA

#58 Jul 3, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
RCS = a genuine POS
Good morning Mark, glad to see you are feeling better.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#59 Jul 3, 2013
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL wrote:
<quoted text>NO,no,no, Dave is not Catholic. You are thinking of the way Catholic priests treat their altar boys. He is a Protestant, completely different belief system.
So your children are pagans? They have not said 'the sinners prayer'. They have not been baptized.

According to the Bible what are they?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#60 Jul 3, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
And they die. What happens then? Your kids were pagan up until when?
Don't pagans go to hell?
Did the 8 year old kid that got killed in the Boston Marathon go to heaven?
The Apostles would not have gotten on Jewish convert if it didn't include their heirs. Would no have happened.
The Bible does not say Thous shalt not baptize infants. You will say the Bible does not say Baptize infants.
That is why the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and not the Bible.
Infants/kids are innocent. I had a childhood friend die in a car accident. I believe he was granted access to God because he was yet a small child. I already posted scripture that shows one must have faith, etc. Infants can't do this.

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