Signing off ... for now
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#485 Aug 22, 2014
I forgot to mention that my father died penniless -flat broke.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#487 Aug 22, 2014
William wrote:
<quoted text>
This is the guy that wrote that book:
http://www.classicalkabbalist.org/about/
A "spiritual kabbalist rabbi" who also believes in tarot readings. From California, no less.
And you think Paul was fraud.
I'm not paying any attention to his personal issues, such as the tarot readings, what I'm paying attention to is the DSS content. My conclusions are not his conclusions. His stance is that the Damascus Scrolls are from an earlier time frame - my understanding is framing under the evidence found with the DSS that should indicate a later time frame understanding of first century Jerusalem before Rome destroyed everything.

And, yes, I firmly believe Paul was a fraud for the very reasons brought to the forefront of following the commandments of God from Due. 4, 12, 13 and 18, which were paraphrased in the teachings of Master Y'shua.

At least understand that I'm not following after what is condemned by God... certainly not willfully.

Paul did not teach the continuation in Christ Jesus of the Everlasting Covenant established by which all the nations would be blessed. That's my core issue with Paul.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#488 Aug 22, 2014
Bobby wrote:
I forgot to mention that my father died penniless -flat broke.
At least when a child I had respect for my father. I didn't know him as a man until I became a man.
I don't think it would benefit me to know more about my dad.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#489 Aug 22, 2014
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy, we all have the tendency to get sidetracked with human history and tradition. My father was born in 1896 and I was the last of 7 kids. I have some great stories to tell. My family was part of the Oklahoma rush. My GG grandfather was named Hezekiah and another served in the civil war as a southerner and yet another was a slave owner. Some good stuff and some bad stuff but it is only human history- don't know for sure how accurate it is. So, I love history but when it comes to life and Godliness it is best to stick with the bible.
Christian history existed 350 years before the Bible. You want to ignore almost 20 % of the Church Jesus started history.

Millions of people no doubt were saved during those years without a Bible.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#490 Aug 22, 2014
"Millions of people no doubt were saved during those years without a Bible."

I agree the bible can't save us, nor can the church. I also agree that all christians have the power to lead non believers to Christ. Jesus words are living words and he can use ordinary people to take that word to the world. The Disciples were ordinary men just like we are. They shared the words of God to others. Anyone who knows the word can share it-ordinary people like me and you. Word of mouth is powerful when it is truth. If the world were to burn all the bibles in the world, God's word will live on through us who are alive and remember it.

Mike, you don't give enough credit to the God who spoke the world into existence. Somehow you seem to think only the catholic church is alive and God is dead.

That being said, I thank God for the bible-he once used a to donkey to speak, he can use anyone.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#491 Aug 23, 2014
Bobby wrote:
"Millions of people no doubt were saved during those years without a Bible."
I agree the bible can't save us, nor can the church. I also agree that all christians have the power to lead non believers to Christ. Jesus words are living words and he can use ordinary people to take that word to the world. The Disciples were ordinary men just like we are. They shared the words of God to others. Anyone who knows the word can share it-ordinary people like me and you. Word of mouth is powerful when it is truth. If the world were to burn all the bibles in the world, God's word will live on through us who are alive and remember it.
Mike, you don't give enough credit to the God who spoke the world into existence. Somehow you seem to think only the catholic church is alive and God is dead.
That being said, I thank God for the bible-he once used a to donkey to speak, he can use anyone.
I thank God the Church led by the HS gave us the Bible.

It all comes down to whether or not not that you believe Jesus left us a Church with the Truth that will teach us the way to salvation which is what God wants for us or some future book that is never mentioned by Jesus or scripture.

SS did not exist for 1500 years. People could not read and there was no way to produce a Bible that except for the very rich nobody could own if they could read.

In the area of Faith and morals, the Church have never wavered in its teachings from AD 32. Only the protesters have changed these things over the years.

The protesters want to to argue about a Marian devotion that the Church never claims will affect your salvation. That devotion, the beautiful art in the Chruches can only lead you to more closer personal relationship with Jesus . How can loving Jesus' mother, and mother of Christianity be a bad thing.

Without the Church Jesus started , there would be no Christianity today.

History proves that without a doubt.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#492 Aug 23, 2014
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Christian history existed 350 years before the Bible. You want to ignore almost 20 % of the Church Jesus started history.
Millions of people no doubt were saved during those years without a Bible.
Let's be honest for a moment. We can all stand around thinking to prove we are the only REAL Christians by many items of history and understanding we've attained from Scripture of commentaries by preachers, teachers, priests or Popes, but why don't we encourage each other to be more faithful to God through hearing the Son and following after Him in all things He taught and the truth, life and love He exampled?

No matter the doctrine or Church, I can't help believe that faithfulness to Jesus Christ is what matters more than anything else. Mr. Foley, the recently murdered reporter, paid the supreme price because he would not deny his faith and belief in Jesus. If only we might see each other in the eyes of God - as God sees us.

May God bless Mr. Foley, and especially the loved ones he left behind because of his faithfulness.

Or who has good reason to believe that giving up his life for his belief in Jesus was in vain?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#493 Aug 23, 2014
Anybody here think that the things Jesus said about the old and new wineskins may be important when it comes to "the one true church", attitudes, and human behavior? I sure do.

This entire argument About catholicism, protestants, whatever you can think of, all stems from the attitude Christ was speaking of there. And His simple point? He has something better to offer, something new-yet we prefer the old familiar that doesn't get the job done.

The old systems aren't compatible with the gospel of Christ. And most of what we are talking about is not much more than a continuation of the old system.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#494 Aug 23, 2014
BW your last post was excellent. Couldn't agree more. We all know I am highly critical of some of your stances. I do not discount/discredit Paul. However, I concede the fact that much of the modern church has become the church of Paul at the expense of Jesus Christ.

Jesus had a simple yet profound message that had depth. Jesus needs preached more than ever today. The epistles have value. But how can we for wrong with the Masters words?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#495 Aug 23, 2014
Dave P wrote:
Anybody here think that the things Jesus said about the old and new wineskins may be important when it comes to "the one true church", attitudes, and human behavior? I sure do.
This entire argument About catholicism, protestants, whatever you can think of, all stems from the attitude Christ was speaking of there. And His simple point? He has something better to offer, something new-yet we prefer the old familiar that doesn't get the job done.
The old systems aren't compatible with the gospel of Christ. And most of what we are talking about is not much more than a continuation of the old system.
I'm not so sure about that. First, the basic historical setting of the early Church is somewhat outlined in Acts. If it were so incompatible, how could the apostles have been going to the Temple regularly, and how could it be that two decades later the apostles charged Paul to prove his faithfulness to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his faith in the gospel as Yeshua taught it to be? I'm very suspicious of the historical "facts" as we've been given. That Paul was told that all the Jewish disciples of Y'shua were still zealous for the Torah speaks volumes that the Law is totally compatible with the message taught by the Lord. Even Paul kept the "Apointements of God".

The AENT has some comments on the wineskins passage, that the Jews were totally familiar with the details of the Law, but the Gentiles weren't, so the Gentiles were not taught to keep the Laws of God that were especially for the Jews, their priesthood, etc. The standards of morality and righteousness and true justice remained the same for both... manner of blameless life that God directs for His own people from the beginning.

The "system" is reflected in the Orthodox Study Bible though, and has comments that the priests are living icons of the priesthood in offering liturgy services as the Aaronic priesthood did in the OT. I'm not really convinced that is the case, and didn't feel or perceive any special benefit when attending their service, which is much like the RCC mass.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#496 Aug 23, 2014
Dave P wrote:
BW your last post was excellent. Couldn't agree more. We all know I am highly critical of some of your stances. I do not discount/discredit Paul. However, I concede the fact that much of the modern church has become the church of Paul at the expense of Jesus Christ.
Jesus had a simple yet profound message that had depth. Jesus needs preached more than ever today. The epistles have value. But how can we for wrong with the Masters words?
Thanks Dave. It's my take as well, that the teachings of Jesus are what everyone needs to go back to and ensure they are abiding in and keeping His words of life. I hear Paul all the time in the Church of Christ and it mystifies me how they reference Paul to support what Jesus said, as though Paul was the ultimate interpretor and giver of truth! I was always confused between what Jesus said and what Paul said. Later I realized the two were incompatible on some critical issues - such as the Law being extant or done away with - in no way is there unity in that division! That's why I so much appreciated the work DelTondo did to show from the internal evidences that Paul was not a teller of the truth and most likely the "sprouter of lies" the Damascus Scrolls referenced. Too much fits then, and too much fits now, as the further divisions in the Church (Catholic) center on something Paul taught.

Can you think of a division in the body of Christ that centers on what Jesus taught?

I've noted many. And perhaps all disappear when the source for the gospel message is limited to the Apostles - Matthew and John.

The facts of the case are just to large and thick to ignore! But what to do?

So I'm in contact with Nelson about publication. I'm also musing sending out a letter to all the Churches of Christ that have an internet email address - directed to the Elders of each congregation. It's either that or start knocking doors and seeing if enough people want to return to the faith as taught by the Master Teacher - and abiding in whatever He taught.
William

Birmingham, AL

#497 Aug 23, 2014
"I'm also musing sending out a letter to all the Churches of Christ that have an internet email address - directed to the Elders of each congregation. It's either that or start knocking doors and seeing if enough people want to return to the faith as taught by the Master Teacher - and abiding in whatever He taught."

They aren't going to sell out everything that they own in order to have their congregations live together and have all things common, as was done according to Acts 2. All of these churches will fall on the sword over Acts 2:38, but will proudly ignore Acts 2:45.

And then there is the small matter of what Jesus told the rich young ruler earlier.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#498 Aug 23, 2014
William wrote:
"I'm also musing sending out a letter to all the Churches of Christ that have an internet email address - directed to the Elders of each congregation. It's either that or start knocking doors and seeing if enough people want to return to the faith as taught by the Master Teacher - and abiding in whatever He taught."
They aren't going to sell out everything that they own in order to have their congregations live together and have all things common, as was done according to Acts 2. All of these churches will fall on the sword over Acts 2:38, but will proudly ignore Acts 2:45.
And then there is the small matter of what Jesus told the rich young ruler earlier.
What Jesus told the rich young ruler easily fits with the premise that keeping the commandments and instructions of God are what has to be done to inherit eternal life. This was the condition God put on the matters to start with, and Jesus wasn't adding to them of necessity - and the "complete" picture was to be one of His selected disciples that he would have had to leave all his possessions behind to follow Him and to transfer his wealth to Heaven itself for safe keeping. That isn't an issue at all.

Y'shua taught the proper application of the Torah as the basic foundation. This included taking care of those in need. Can you show me in any writing of a true apostle that this somewhat communist concept as we interpret it was taught? The rich who had much sold what was needed to take care of the poor and needy, and there is the example of the widow and the two small copper coins, but that was also the exception, but Y'shua noted she gave all she had out of need - but that is still giving it all. Historical records are that the Apostles lived very meager lives, and is why the congregation at Jerusalem was called "the poor".

Most of us do well to take care of our own needs and hopefully have some left to share with those in greater need. Giving is actually the lessor of the need when considering the flagrant denial of the true Sabbath that God commanded - it was kept by the Jews, the sojourner, the stranger, the animals and even the land! Yet most have no issue to the pretended Sunday Sabbath, although there is no Scriptural foundation for it or any hint of a change from the Seventh Day as established from the beginning - but it's a start, and is one of the "big ten".

Of the actual 613 commandments, most of Christianity keeps far more of them than they realize.
William

Birmingham, AL

#499 Aug 23, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Of the actual 613 commandments, most of Christianity keeps far more of them than they realize.
Here ya go. Complete with references:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid...

Break even one, and you have broken all of them.
William

Birmingham, AL

#500 Aug 23, 2014
James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#501 Aug 25, 2014
William wrote:
James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James must be a spouter of lies...

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#502 Aug 25, 2014
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
James must be a spouter of lies...
With SS you both are right. Nobody can be wrong.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#503 Aug 25, 2014
William wrote:
"I'm also musing sending out a letter to all the Churches of Christ that have an internet email address - directed to the Elders of each congregation. It's either that or start knocking doors and seeing if enough people want to return to the faith as taught by the Master Teacher - and abiding in whatever He taught."
They aren't going to sell out everything that they own in order to have their congregations live together and have all things common, as was done according to Acts 2. All of these churches will fall on the sword over Acts 2:38, but will proudly ignore Acts 2:45.
And then there is the small matter of what Jesus told the rich young ruler earlier.
He told him to follow me.

Didn't want to.

You don't either.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#504 Aug 25, 2014
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
He told him to follow me.
Didn't want to.
You don't either.
Mike follows the pope!
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#505 Aug 26, 2014
There is a tension in Scripture - even in the very words of God. As Jacob, anyone who comes to His words will find themselves in need of something to be complete. But because we come to Him as incomplete, or wounded, sick, blind, deaf or even with incurable deceases - He alone can restore us to wholeness. The passage from James has to be weighed in along side of other truths, such as I John 1:9 - His mercies are new every morning - lest we be consumed - He knows us better than we know ourselves and He also knows what manner of life is best for us and what each of us are capable of if we just trust Him to keep His part of the Everlasting Covenant. The issue is if we believe to then obey (repent), or if we believe to not have to repent (obey) what He said is required of men.

Jesus said to not even think He came to abolish, set-aside or destroy the Commandments of God, and that their instructions, as His, are still in effect for His disciples.

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