Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#61 May 9, 2013
Can a disciple of Christ hold/believe misunderstandings of Scripture, yet be a disciple of Christ? It seems obvious on here, the answer is ……… YES.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#62 May 9, 2013
As far as the word “disciple” is concerned, weren’t the Ephesians in Acts 18:1 called disciples before they received the correct baptism?

“Janitor Custodian ”

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#63 May 9, 2013
aint a disciple just a person who follow somebody. Why make such big deal for.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#64 May 9, 2013
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I would say that God would overlook error in such a case. Otherwise, He is holding error-filled teaching against the person trying to follow Him in baptism, not the teacher of the error.
So would you limit the false teaching to what aspect of Doctrine?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#65 May 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with the point on baptism. I believe it clearly shows purpose. However, everyone doesn't/cannot "understand" this. My point being, if God allows for misunderstandings after one is baptized, why not before one is baptized? If God truly permits the believer to hold error/misunderstandings yet be saved, then it seems this would also apply to misunderstandings on the purpose of baptism. Will God not do His work Col 2:11-12 IN BAPTISM just because a sinner fails to connects all of the dots? This means Gods work IN BAPTISM hinges upon understanding the purpose of baptism and not on the sinner coming to God by faith in Jesus Christ.
One thrust of the difference of "unto" remission of sins could be this-those that believe and repent are baptized unto remission of sins and to receive the Spirit. Maybe we all should remember this-why did the people at Pentecost DESIRE to be baptized? It was because they realized they were guilty of murdering Christ, and needed to do something about that. We make the bigger issue realizing the purpose of baptism. They weren't interested in the purpose of baptism on Pentecost-they were interested in being forgiven for killing Jesus. Repentance and baptism is the answer for that.

I hope everyone can see the difference I am seeing here. It is a difference in perspectives, and I may not be explaining it well. Another way may be this-both forgiveness of sins and the Spirit are simply results of responding. Repentance and baptized are both "FOR" both of these things. Baptism by itself isn't for the purpose of forgiveness-faith and repentance are as well.

Perhaps in other words, if a person is sincerely seeking Christ and forgiveness, and responds the best way he understands, does repent and baptized (even if not for our reasons), God will forgive that person for responding in the manner that they do.

Only the individual knows for sure (besides God) why they were baptized. If the person does it in response to God's conviction, knowing where they stand before a Holy God, let Him be the judge.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#66 May 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
So would you limit the false teaching to what aspect of Doctrine?
I don’t know. I’m not the gatekeeper to Heaven. Ultimately salvation is between God and the individual. Others on the other hand think God will use them as consultants when He separates the sheep and goats.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#67 May 9, 2013
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
I don’t know. I’m not the gatekeeper to Heaven. Ultimately salvation is between God and the individual..
Agreed, now what do you suppose a person would do if they were taught a false doctrine about baptism. Baptism is taught only two ways. One for an outward show of an inward change Post salvation, or as a condition to the Grace of God, that is required by God, to be saved and receive His Spirit.

Say a person is taught there is no salvation need for baptism but it is just to join a group (old days) now for the outward show.
and then later reads and says hey thats not what the the bible really teaches.

They now question two things. 1. Was I really saved 2. Did I receive the Holy Spirit.

What do they do now?

xxx

Nashville, TN

#68 May 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed, now what do you suppose a person would do if they were taught a false doctrine about baptism. Baptism is taught only two ways. One for an outward show of an inward change Post salvation, or as a condition to the Grace of God, that is required by God, to be saved and receive His Spirit.
Say a person is taught there is no salvation need for baptism but it is just to join a group (old days) now for the outward show.
and then later reads and says hey thats not what the the bible really teaches.
They now question two things. 1. Was I really saved 2. Did I receive the Holy Spirit.
What do they do now?
I would encourage them to follow the doctrine they felt was correct, regardless of how I felt about it. This is why I told Randy in the past that if he really believed he had to be baptized to be saved that he should go ahead and do it.

It’s better to be in honest error than to be in blatant disobedience—regardless of whether or not the person is correct or incorrect in what actually constitutes disobedience.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#69 May 9, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
One thrust of the difference of "unto" remission of sins could be this-those that believe and repent are baptized unto remission of sins and to receive the Spirit. Maybe we all should remember this-why did the people at Pentecost DESIRE to be baptized? It was because they realized they were guilty of murdering Christ, and needed to do something about that. We make the bigger issue realizing the purpose of baptism. They weren't interested in the purpose of baptism on Pentecost-they were interested in being forgiven for killing Jesus. Repentance and baptism is the answer for that.
I hope everyone can see the difference I am seeing here. It is a difference in perspectives, and I may not be explaining it well. Another way may be this-both forgiveness of sins and the Spirit are simply results of responding. Repentance and baptized are both "FOR" both of these things. Baptism by itself isn't for the purpose of forgiveness-faith and repentance are as well.
Perhaps in other words, if a person is sincerely seeking Christ and forgiveness, and responds the best way he understands, does repent and baptized (even if not for our reasons), God will forgive that person for responding in the manner that they do.
Only the individual knows for sure (besides God) why they were baptized. If the person does it in response to God's conviction, knowing where they stand before a Holy God, let Him be the judge.
I have considered this as well.

Peter gave the command to “repent and be baptized.”

The results: forgiveness AND the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We often forget about the promise- the gift of the Spirit but make much over understanding the promise of forgiveness of sins. I do believe repentance and baptism are unto remission of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, if we fail to properly grasp every detail about repentance and baptism, will God withhold forgiveness. IF one repents and is baptized on the basis that he trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection from the dead, will God send one to hell because he failed to understand that Baptism is the place God performs an operation on the sinner Col 2:11-12. Will not God operate on the sinner when he repents and is baptized, although the sinner may not know that God acts in baptism on him? If God ONLY acts in baptism BECAUSE the sinner understands the purpose of baptism, it means remission of sins hinges upon our understanding, not by the work of God- Col.2:11-12. Furthermore, if complete understanding is required of baptism before God will act IN BAPTISM, then why do we not say one must also understand the gift of the Holy Spirit? They both are promises and both stated within the same verse.

“Janitor Custodian ”

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#70 May 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have considered this as well.
Peter gave the command to “repent and be baptized.”
The results: forgiveness AND the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We often forget about the promise- the gift of the Spirit but make much over understanding the promise of forgiveness of sins. I do believe repentance and baptism are unto remission of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, if we fail to properly grasp every detail about repentance and baptism, will God withhold forgiveness. IF one repents and is baptized on the basis that he trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection from the dead, will God send one to hell because he failed to understand that Baptism is the place God performs an operation on the sinner Col 2:11-12. Will not God operate on the sinner when he repents and is baptized, although the sinner may not know that God acts in baptism on him? If God ONLY acts in baptism BECAUSE the sinner understands the purpose of baptism, it means remission of sins hinges upon our understanding, not by the work of God- Col.2:11-12. Furthermore, if complete understanding is required of baptism before God will act IN BAPTISM, then why do we not say one must also understand the gift of the Holy Spirit? They both are promises and both stated within the same verse.
dont matter long as you do it God will do his part. If a person come with faith for Jesus and does repent for sins and is baptized yes God will do his part

“Janitor Custodian ”

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#71 May 9, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
One thrust of the difference of "unto" remission of sins could be this-those that believe and repent are baptized unto remission of sins and to receive the Spirit. Maybe we all should remember this-why did the people at Pentecost DESIRE to be baptized? It was because they realized they were guilty of murdering Christ, and needed to do something about that. We make the bigger issue realizing the purpose of baptism. They weren't interested in the purpose of baptism on Pentecost-they were interested in being forgiven for killing Jesus. Repentance and baptism is the answer for that.
I hope everyone can see the difference I am seeing here. It is a difference in perspectives, and I may not be explaining it well. Another way may be this-both forgiveness of sins and the Spirit are simply results of responding. Repentance and baptized are both "FOR" both of these things. Baptism by itself isn't for the purpose of forgiveness-faith and repentance are as well.
Perhaps in other words, if a person is sincerely seeking Christ and forgiveness, and responds the best way he understands, does repent and baptized (even if not for our reasons), God will forgive that person for responding in the manner that they do.
Only the individual knows for sure (besides God) why they were baptized. If the person does it in response to God's conviction, knowing where they stand before a Holy God, let Him be the judge.
You and Creed mix me up some on here. You both seem like you traveling the same road but hitting ditches and mail boxes on the way. Are you and Creed changing what you two believe.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#72 May 9, 2013
mop-man wrote:
<quoted text>
You and Creed mix me up some on here. You both seem like you traveling the same road but hitting ditches and mail boxes on the way. Are you and Creed changing what you two believe.
Pretty good thought there mop-man. I think if we are all sincerely seeking God's will we do hit ditches and mail boxes sometimes. I think Randy (Creed) and I both are really on the same page on most things. I think it is possible that if we truly have faith and respond as God wants us to, He will forgive us even if we don't have a full knowledge of what baptism means. I don't think I know everything yet, and I've been a Christian for a while now.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#73 May 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have considered this as well.
Peter gave the command to “repent and be baptized.”
The results: forgiveness AND the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We often forget about the promise- the gift of the Spirit but make much over understanding the promise of forgiveness of sins. I do believe repentance and baptism are unto remission of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, if we fail to properly grasp every detail about repentance and baptism, will God withhold forgiveness. IF one repents and is baptized on the basis that he trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection from the dead, will God send one to hell because he failed to understand that Baptism is the place God performs an operation on the sinner Col 2:11-12. Will not God operate on the sinner when he repents and is baptized, although the sinner may not know that God acts in baptism on him? If God ONLY acts in baptism BECAUSE the sinner understands the purpose of baptism, it means remission of sins hinges upon our understanding, not by the work of God- Col.2:11-12. Furthermore, if complete understanding is required of baptism before God will act IN BAPTISM, then why do we not say one must also understand the gift of the Holy Spirit? They both are promises and both stated within the same verse.
I do know we should teach more on the gift of the Holy Spirit being part of the plan as some call it in the conversion process, however God will do that part even in ignorance, dont you agree?

Now what if a person was baptized not for remission of sins but for joining a group,( now they've left this for outward sign) did they receive the Holy Spirit? Did God say well I know they dont believe my words about Baptism but I will supply the Holy Spirit anyway?

I know its not our place to guess God? Probably not a good question.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#74 May 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed, now what do you suppose a person would do if they were taught a false doctrine about baptism. Baptism is taught only two ways. One for an outward show of an inward change Post salvation, or as a condition to the Grace of God, that is required by God, to be saved and receive His Spirit.
Say a person is taught there is no salvation need for baptism but it is just to join a group (old days) now for the outward show.
and then later reads and says hey thats not what the the bible really teaches.
They now question two things. 1. Was I really saved 2. Did I receive the Holy Spirit.
What do they do now?
If being correctly water baptized with knowledge that it is for receiving the Spirit- then Why am I having such a hard time seeing the Spirit in you?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#75 May 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I do know we should teach more on the gift of the Holy Spirit being part of the plan as some call it in the conversion process, however God will do that part even in ignorance, dont you agree?
Now what if a person was baptized not for remission of sins but for joining a group,( now they've left this for outward sign) did they receive the Holy Spirit? Did God say well I know they dont believe my words about Baptism but I will supply the Holy Spirit anyway?
I know its not our place to guess God? Probably not a good question.
JustChristian said:“I do know we should teach more on the gift of the Holy Spirit being part of the plan as some call it in the conversion process, however God will do that part even in ignorance, dont you agree?”

Randy said: Yes, I agree. Although one be ignorant, lacking complete knowledge of the gift of the Holy Spirit, God will still do His part. If true, in the same verse is disagreement/misunderstanding about baptism. If God will allow ignorance/misunderstanding on part of Acts 2:38, logically, He will do so with baptism too.

JustChristian said:“Now what if a person was baptized not for remission of sins but for joining a group,( now they've left this for outward sign) did they receive the Holy Spirit? Did God say well I know they dont believe my words about Baptism but I will supply the Holy Spirit anyway?”

Randy said: Honestly, I’m not aware of any groups who baptism for “membership” of their group/sect, but have heard of this. Even then, I would imagine they also trust/believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the grave. If God allows ignorance as you stated regarding the Holy Spirit, I don’t see why He wouldn’t allow misunderstandings on Baptism. I wholeheartedly believe baptism to be the point God operates on the sinner, forgiving his sins, adding him to the church; however, must we grasp this before God will act? If so, salvation hinges upon “our” understanding NOT the work of God in baptism. If we obey the commands “repent and be baptized” will God withhold His promise of remission and the gift of the Spirit if we fail to connect all of the dots? We obey commands, not promises. Promises are Gods work “when” a sinner obeys the commands of repentance and baptism. As Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized will be saved. Being saved is God doing what he promises to those who believe and are baptized.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#76 May 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
JustChristian said:“I do know we should teach more on the gift of the Holy Spirit being part of the plan as some call it in the conversion process, however God will do that part even in ignorance, dont you agree?”
Randy said: Yes, I agree. Although one be ignorant, lacking complete knowledge of the gift of the Holy Spirit, God will still do His part. If true, in the same verse is disagreement/misunderstanding about baptism. If God will allow ignorance/misunderstanding on part of Acts 2:38, logically, He will do so with baptism too.
JustChristian said:“Now what if a person was baptized not for remission of sins but for joining a group,( now they've left this for outward sign) did they receive the Holy Spirit? Did God say well I know they dont believe my words about Baptism but I will supply the Holy Spirit anyway?”
Randy said: Honestly, I’m not aware of any groups who baptism for “membership” of their group/sect, but have heard of this. Even then, I would imagine they also trust/believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the grave. If God allows ignorance as you stated regarding the Holy Spirit, I don’t see why He wouldn’t allow misunderstandings on Baptism. I wholeheartedly believe baptism to be the point God operates on the sinner, forgiving his sins, adding him to the church; however, must we grasp this before God will act? If so, salvation hinges upon “our” understanding NOT the work of God in baptism. If we obey the commands “repent and be baptized” will God withhold His promise of remission and the gift of the Spirit if we fail to connect all of the dots? We obey commands, not promises. Promises are Gods work “when” a sinner obeys the commands of repentance and baptism. As Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized will be saved. Being saved is God doing what he promises to those who believe and are baptized.
Thoughts:
*As JustChristian said, God will give the obedient person the gift of the Spirit, regardless of their ignorance of the topic. I would agree-and I would also have to agree with Randy that ignorance would also have to be allowed on baptism as well.

*What if a person is baptized to join a group or for an outward sign? Do most really do this? Looking at some Baptist sites, most baptize believers to obey Jesus in baptism; Baptists feel baptism is necessary for a believer to do, the church should be the ones doing the baptizing, believers are admitted as members after being baptized, but I didn't see anyone say they were baptized to join the group. They generally don't accept sprinking.

I wonder if sometimes we think everyone believes as we've been told by the "scholars" how they believe. Like Wesley and his perfection doctrine-I read that he didn't believe what others turned his doctrine into. For coc people, Walter Scott said he didn't like what the RM had done to the idea of baptism. Do Baptists and other groups REALLY believe how we think they do? Or do we speak from ignorance?

Were the first believers worried about the purpose of baptism? Was Acts 2:38 written specifically to tell us what we must believe for baptism to be valid? Or is it written to let us know how to respond when convicted of sin? We often state that baptism is FOR remission of sins. But REALLY, what are we baptized FOR?
mopman

United States

#77 May 9, 2013
Man oh man. Creed and Dave p sure thrown bunch of oil on the water. You both are two steps from letting anybody in the church.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#78 May 9, 2013
mopman wrote:
Man oh man. Creed and Dave p sure thrown bunch of oil on the water. You both are two steps from letting anybody in the church.
God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth mopman. The argument about how much a person needs to know about baptism isn't new. Remember wheat and tares?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#79 May 10, 2013
mopman wrote:
You both are two steps from letting anybody in the church.
No, that's not true. You are missing my point. I will make it brief as possible because I have to get to work soon.

We all admit that we lack complete knowledge of every doctrine- even wrong at times. The New Born IN CHRIST lacks many doctrines- ignorant of many things yet is accepted as part of the flock. This means God grades on the curve- he allows error as one grows in grace. If this be true, will he not allow the sinner to lack insight on the purpose of baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit? Many admit they lack knowledge of the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time they were baptized yet many preachers demand that we understand the purpose of Baptism as if our understanding of baptism causes God to act IN BAPTISM- Col. 2:11-12. I'm inclined to think God will do his work IN BAPTISM when one repents and is baptized EVEN when we do not connect all of the dots.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#80 May 10, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Thoughts:
*As JustChristian said, God will give the obedient person the gift of the Spirit, regardless of their ignorance of the topic. I would agree-and I would also have to agree with Randy that ignorance would also have to be allowed on baptism as well.
*What if a person is baptized to join a group or for an outward sign? Do most really do this? Looking at some Baptist sites, most baptize believers to obey Jesus in baptism; Baptists feel baptism is necessary for a believer to do, the church should be the ones doing the baptizing, believers are admitted as members after being baptized, but I didn't see anyone say they were baptized to join the group. They generally don't accept sprinking.
I wonder if sometimes we think everyone believes as we've been told by the "scholars" how they believe. Like Wesley and his perfection doctrine-I read that he didn't believe what others turned his doctrine into. For coc people, Walter Scott said he didn't like what the RM had done to the idea of baptism. Do Baptists and other groups REALLY believe how we think they do? Or do we speak from ignorance?
Were the first believers worried about the purpose of baptism? Was Acts 2:38 written specifically to tell us what we must believe for baptism to be valid? Or is it written to let us know how to respond when convicted of sin? We often state that baptism is FOR remission of sins. But REALLY, what are we baptized FOR?
You are correct. I know various groups and none I know baptizes to be a member of their group. I have heard of such but personally do not know anyone who does this. Most people are baptized for Godly reasons- reasons built upon their understanding that Jesus is the way, the truth, the Life. Please elaborate on your last question- "But REALLY, what are we baptized FOR?"

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