Was the Law nailed to the cross?
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Dave P

Lexington, KY

#61 Jul 12, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Genesis 26:5 tells us Abraham had some knowledge before the Torah was given to Israel. The focal points for a Christian (disciple of Jesus) are:
1. He said the Sabbath was made for man - not Jews. Even in the OT is was to be kept by sojourners and servants in the land, and even by the animals. Even the land was to have a Sabbath rest every seven years.
2. That the Sabbath was set aside as separate by God at Creation.
You've got a lot here. I'm gonna break it down a bit. First, Abraham did have some knowledge of God's commands and ordinances. How much, we have no idea.

As for one, I agree with your facts; but the "made for man-not Jews" is stretching the context. He was talking of His disciples plucking heads of grain, how it was "unlawful", and the main point is that the Pharisees had unnecessarily made the Sabbath a burden and a hindrance, instead of the rest and blessing it should have been. Nationalities are not at play here.

Two, God rested on the seventh day, hallowed it. But didn't reveal it to mankind until Sinai. To say any different goes against the text.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#62 Jul 12, 2013
3. Jesus affirmed the Sabbath with the clarification that it is lawful to do good works on the Sabbath - in defiance of the man made regulations put upon Sabbath being used against the very purpose/reasons that God instituted the day. When Jesus talked on the topic, He did say 'it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath, which shows it is a matter of the law and commandment of God in the time He was on earth.
4. He warned of the flight of those in Jerusalem to not be in winter OR ON THE SABBATH, which He surely knew the future was that it would occur after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven. So He supported keeping the Sabbath after the cross, thereby we can know it was NOT nailed to the cross.
5. Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath.

3 and 5- agree. Nothing to discuss.
4. I don't believe Jesus is supporting the sabbath in that verse. What He is simply saying is this- pray your flight isn't in the winter- cold and snowy; or on the sabbath- BECAUSE THE GATES ARE CLOSED AND YOU CANNOT ESCAPE!

As for the sabbath being nailed to the cross idea, in that infamous passage Paul states that the sabbath is a shadow, much like the priesthood and the sacrifices were. And Hebrews tells us of our true sabbath, and it isn't the seventh day.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#63 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
You've got a lot here. I'm gonna break it down a bit. First, Abraham did have some knowledge of God's commands and ordinances. How much, we have no idea.
As for one, I agree with your facts; but the "made for man-not Jews" is stretching the context. He was talking of His disciples plucking heads of grain, how it was "unlawful", and the main point is that the Pharisees had unnecessarily made the Sabbath a burden and a hindrance, instead of the rest and blessing it should have been. Nationalities are not at play here.
Two, God rested on the seventh day, hallowed it. But didn't reveal it to mankind until Sinai. To say any different goes against the text.
The text says He gave it to Israel then - not that He had not proclaimed it before. Did Moses write Genesis before or after Mt. Sinai? We aren't told that I recall. For all we know he was writing it in the back deserts during his 40 year exile from Egypt. Genesis says from the beginning that God set the day apart and for certain reasons. If you haven't made the distinction yet, if the commandments of God are true, and if Israel was kept from their promised land over it - why should Gentiles not face the same judgment of God for following the same path as those who rejected God in the first place? Is God just and righteous and His every judgment true? Or did Paul bind upon God what he thought right? RCC really should realize they follow the model of Paul and not Peter.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#64 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
3. Jesus affirmed the Sabbath with the clarification that it is lawful to do good works on the Sabbath - in defiance of the man made regulations put upon Sabbath being used against the very purpose/reasons that God instituted the day. When Jesus talked on the topic, He did say 'it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath, which shows it is a matter of the law and commandment of God in the time He was on earth.
4. He warned of the flight of those in Jerusalem to not be in winter OR ON THE SABBATH, which He surely knew the future was that it would occur after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven. So He supported keeping the Sabbath after the cross, thereby we can know it was NOT nailed to the cross.
5. Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath.
3 and 5- agree. Nothing to discuss.
4. I don't believe Jesus is supporting the sabbath in that verse. What He is simply saying is this- pray your flight isn't in the winter- cold and snowy; or on the sabbath- BECAUSE THE GATES ARE CLOSED AND YOU CANNOT ESCAPE!
As for the sabbath being nailed to the cross idea, in that infamous passage Paul states that the sabbath is a shadow, much like the priesthood and the sacrifices were. And Hebrews tells us of our true sabbath, and it isn't the seventh day.
Hebrews tells us there remains a Sabbath for the people of God and that we are to rest as God did from His works. That's Sabbath talk if I've ever heard it. God rested from His works on the Seventh Day, and Hebrews says that we are not to be like those who were unfaithful and failed to keep the Sabbath, but to be sure to keep the Sabbath.(Hebrews 4)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#65 Jul 13, 2013
Regarding what was known before Moses, the book of Job predates the Torah and has Job offering sacrifices for the possible sins of his children. One of my projects is to review Job in detail to glean what those things were, or at least what some were.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#67 Jul 13, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Hebrews tells us there remains a Sabbath for the people of God and that we are to rest as God did from His works. That's Sabbath talk if I've ever heard it. God rested from His works on the Seventh Day, and Hebrews says that we are not to be like those who were unfaithful and failed to keep the Sabbath, but to be sure to keep the Sabbath.(Hebrews 4)
If you also notice the context in Hebrews the "sabbath rest" of the people has nothing to do with keeping of a day, but rather entering into the land of promise. Our rest isn't a certain day, it's a place, just like Israel's was. The promised land is our rest. Heaven.

The whole idea of rest from Hebrews 4 is speaking of the land of promise, not the sabbath day.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#68 Jul 13, 2013
If you haven't made the distinction yet, if the commandments of God are true, and if Israel was kept from their promised land over it - why should Gentiles not face the same judgment of God for following the same path as those who rejected God in the first place? Is God just and righteous and His every judgment true? Or did Paul bind upon God what he thought right?

The sabbath day was specifically revealed to the Jews on Sinai as part of the inauguration of the Mosaic law. As we see the early years of the church unfold, we see disciples gathering every day; on the first of the week; and we see Paul preaching in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

We never actually read that the disciples were assembling on the sabbath, but many of the Jewish disciples no doubt did so. That's why we read certain passages like Romans 14 and Colossians 3- we should judge no man for keeping of sabbaths and feast days, although they are but a shadow.

If the sabbath is something that God has decreed and bound for all men of all time and location to honor on the seventh day, why did not the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 make a decision on it? They were dealing specifically with matters of Jew and Gentile. James even quotes Amos to prove that gentiles were included in God's provision. Seems like it should be an opportune time to deal with the sabbath question.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#69 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
If you haven't made the distinction yet, if the commandments of God are true, and if Israel was kept from their promised land over it - why should Gentiles not face the same judgment of God for following the same path as those who rejected God in the first place? Is God just and righteous and His every judgment true? Or did Paul bind upon God what he thought right?
The sabbath day was specifically revealed to the Jews on Sinai as part of the inauguration of the Mosaic law. As we see the early years of the church unfold, we see disciples gathering every day; on the first of the week; and we see Paul preaching in the synagogues on the Sabbath.
We never actually read that the disciples were assembling on the sabbath, but many of the Jewish disciples no doubt did so. That's why we read certain passages like Romans 14 and Colossians 3- we should judge no man for keeping of sabbaths and feast days, although they are but a shadow.
If the sabbath is something that God has decreed and bound for all men of all time and location to honor on the seventh day, why did not the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 make a decision on it? They were dealing specifically with matters of Jew and Gentile. James even quotes Amos to prove that gentiles were included in God's provision. Seems like it should be an opportune time to deal with the sabbath question.
It wasn't a question then, as they were meeting privately throughout the week and worshiping on the Sabbath with the Jews in Synagogues. Acts show this. We don't see Peter, John, or any others going around saying the day was changed to Sunday either. Established practice was Sabbath - over a thousand years of established practice, and it's listed right there in the big ten and clarified by the Lord Himself.

Passages commonly used against the Sabbath may well be best understood to re enforce it. Hebrews and Colossians are two examples.

Hebrews 4 is about both the promised rest and Israel not entering because of disobedience - which included disobedience to the Sabbath. Then again it mentions God resting on the Seventh day and saying it remains that we also rest as He did.

Colossians warns to hold to the head, Christ, and not be lead astray by traditions or persuasive words - we must hold to what the Lord and His apostles taught. How can anyone condemn LDS because their prophet spoken not according to the Law and the Testimony if they aren't speaking according to the Law and the Testimony either?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man - this is pre-Jew and includes men of every county and age. Jesus warned us not to think He came to destroy or set aside the Law of God, or the Prophets or the Psalms.

Breaking from the Sabbath was a purely Roman Church change - not any Scriptural directive.

But I am glad we have agreed on many other things...
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#70 Jul 13, 2013
Yes, for me if someone desires to honor the Sabbath I have no issue with it. Same as the feasts and holy days of Israel. In principle I see that many have tried to honor the spirit behind the sabbath on Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I think that Paul's statements in Romans and Colossians cut both ways. Gentiles should not judge Jewish brethren over observing the Sabbath; Jews should not judge Gentiles over not observing the Sabbath. Jesus' words in John 4 are also important in the conversation.

We can disagree and not hate or namecall one another, nor doubt someone's status in Christ because of our disagreements. Being disciples of Him is first and foremost. One of these days BW we'll get together with the Master and He'll tell us both how much we were either right or wrong, and He will love us anyway. Wonder if heaven will be filled with such discussions?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#72 Jul 13, 2013
I've been reading more at the site referred to before about questioning Paul as an apostle. He has some to say about the 'Law' that fits our conversations:
Now, the issue of the identity of those who said, "Lord, Lord", and why they were denied entrance to the kingdom. These people actually called him "Lord," twice! It is a passionate cry! And it can't be over-stated that Yahshua said there would be many of them! These also claimed to have done much in his name! They said they prophesied, cast out demons, and even worked miracles. The fact that Yahshua never challenged their claims should haunt every Christian. No Jew, Moslem, atheist, or anything other than a Christian could possibly make such claims. Obviously, they had done everything they said they did, but this fact was meaningless to Yahshua. The issue now was that they were also workers of "Law-less-ness". This word in Matthew 7:23 translated "lawlessness", is a bit misleading. The Greek word is anomia, and it has another more-applicable meaning in this context. The following is an excerpt from Jesus' Words Only by Doug DelTondo, a book I endorse and highly recommend. From page 60 and 61:
In Greek, anomia is a feminine noun, related to the adjective a-nomos. Nomos is the Greek word to identify the Law or Torah, i.e., the Five Books of Moses.(Strong's #3551.) The prefix a is a negative particle in Greek. Putting the parts together, it should mean negation of the Law (Torah). Do the lexicons agree? What does anomia precisely mean in Matthew 7:23? The best lexicon of the ancient Greek (which is free online) is Henry George Liddell's and Robert Scott's A Greek-English Lexicon. It defines anomia as one of two meanings:
* "the negation of the law:
* "lawlessness, lawless conduct."
The common rendering of Matthew 7:23 opts for the second meaning.(See ALT, KJV, and ASV translations.) These texts ignore entirely the first option. These translations do not reveal these workers practiced the "negation of the Law." Yet, this is the meaning Jesus intended in this context. Jesus is talking about workers of the negation of the Law because He is paraphrasing Deuteronomy 13:1-5.
DelTondo is right. Yahshua is obviously repainting the picture from Deuteronomy. Remember, those who said "Lord, Lord" are Christians, and claim to have done many works and even miracles in his name... but that fact is meaningless to him.
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us serve them.' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him." Deuteronomy 13:1-4
Even the working of miracles is meaningless to the judge if God's Laws are cast aside. Does this not describe Christianity today? Christianity considers the Law of Moses the Old (obsolete) Testament. Only Christians will be saying "Lord, Lord", and Yahshua said that these will be sent away from him to "outer-darkness."

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