Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#21 Jul 10, 2013
Do I throw the law out and ignore it altogether. No, it is the standard of what reveals sin and is still vaulable to us today for our growth and learning, but it has no power to save.

Gal 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

What I am saying is that I refuse to go back under the law. Although I couldn't even if I wanted to because it is no longer in force.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#22 Jul 10, 2013
So, yes the law has been nailed to the cross!

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#23 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That's ok justchristian posted the same scripture. Where we always reach an impasse is on weather or not Paul was telling the truth.
It is not a renewed covenant, it is a new covenant. What Jesus did on the cross matters-it is the game changer.
I know sometimes we forget that we are not sure Paul was the author of Hebrews. I doubt he was. Maybe nameless for those who discount Pauls apostleship.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#24 Jul 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
That could be an inconsistency. But the former covenant instituted animal sacrifice since the people were afraid of God. Ezekiel 36:26 says the God would send His Spirit in due time so that His people would keep His directions from their hearts - that is what it was given for, and He said so. And if Jesus fulfilled His role in the renewed covenant, it seems folly to remove the foundation from a building of God. He joined them together. All ten of the ten commandments are affirmed by Jesus in His teaching.
This shows the need to understand the difference between ordinance of the priesthood as instituted by Moses - VS - the commandments of God that were written in stone that He said would be written on the hearts of His people with renewed purpose to do His will.
The love of Christ on the cross far exceeds any shadow of animal sacrifice.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I suppose you do know the context of this and what this meant for the captives?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#25 Jul 10, 2013
http://oneinjesus.info/2013/07/gods-plan-some...

I think the above link is very relevant to the discussion. Is this perhaps another issue in the scriptures where we miss the big picture?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#26 Jul 10, 2013
Dave P wrote:
http://oneinjesus.info/2013/07 /gods-plan-some-conclusions/#m ore-25461
I think the above link is very relevant to the discussion. Is this perhaps another issue in the scriptures where we miss the big picture?
I get it, that is a good place to be, however when we debate these issues we usually need to have scripture to back up what we say.

The author did not quote a lot of scripture, while at the same time if we already know the scripture we can clearly see his message. Sometimes I do the same thing and when I do, I am usually asked to provide the scripture.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#27 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I get it, that is a good place to be, however when we debate these issues we usually need to have scripture to back up what we say.
The author did not quote a lot of scripture, while at the same time if we already know the scripture we can clearly see his message. Sometimes I do the same thing and when I do, I am usually asked to provide the scripture.
I wasn't getting involved in this discussion yet. I had just read that article, thought it was worth mentioning. I'm not saying I advocate that position-haven't investigated yet. Does seem to make sense. I was more or less inviting all to look at it, perhaps it has some merit.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#28 Jul 10, 2013
One passage mentioned is Luke 14:16-24. The parable of the great supper. The point being made is that God's greatest desire is that His house may be filled.

*How do we look at God? Is He simply the great legislator in the sky? Is He merely interested in obedience to His regulations? Or, as the pieces suggest, is He trying to get people to get to know Him?

How we look at God determines how we read His book and how we think the Christian life is to be lived.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#29 Jul 10, 2013
Exodus 6:2-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And God spoke to Moses and said to him:“I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord[a] I was not known to them. 4 I have also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. 6 Therefore say to the children of Israel:‘I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the Lord.’”

Look at God's purpose in bringing Israel out of Egypt- for them to know that "I am the Lord your God".

Exodus 8:10- "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God". Exodus 14- God destroyed the Egyptians so that the Egyptians would know that "I am the Lord".

Dt. 4:35- "To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

Ps. 106:8- God saved Israel "that He might make His mighty power known".

Isaiah 43:21- "This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise".

Ezekiel 16:59-63 is a very important text. Read it in depth sometime. God will provide an atonement, "Then you shall know that I am the Lord".

These scriptures do point to us that one of God's major purposes is to reveal Himself to us.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#30 Jul 10, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Exodus 6:2-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And God spoke to Moses and said to him:“I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord[a] I was not known to them. 4 I have also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. 6 Therefore say to the children of Israel:‘I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the Lord.’”
Look at God's purpose in bringing Israel out of Egypt- for them to know that "I am the Lord your God".
Exodus 8:10- "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God". Exodus 14- God destroyed the Egyptians so that the Egyptians would know that "I am the Lord".
Dt. 4:35- "To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."
Ps. 106:8- God saved Israel "that He might make His mighty power known".
Isaiah 43:21- "This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise".
Ezekiel 16:59-63 is a very important text. Read it in depth sometime. God will provide an atonement, "Then you shall know that I am the Lord".
These scriptures do point to us that one of God's major purposes is to reveal Himself to us.
This is why the law was nailed to the cross, so that we might now have a relationship with God through our great high priest. The law pretty much prevented that because the sin issue had to be solved-the law stood in the way not because the law was bad but because we needed to be born again/changed/forgiven, having our sin erased. Now there is nothing to keep us from approaching the throne of God, with confidence.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#31 Jul 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
One Question Was the Law of Moses the ten commandments the priestly order all part of the Old Covenant?
I think there may be more to it than that. Note Genesis 26:5 regarding Abraham. What was God talking about for Abraham, when similar matters are noted? Some things from Abraham are recorded in Scripture - but possibly not all things. Abraham was to offer the sacrifice of his son - but was Abraham a priest? Or Noah? or Job?

The priesthood established by Moses is one thing, the commandments of God that were written in stone is another. So the word play between hearts of stone VS hearts of flesh, that a future people of God would keep His word from their hearts because God gave His Spirit to them to want to do them - not out of constriction, but out of love.

The ordinances of the priesthood have to do with particular administrations to atone for sins. With Aaronic it was much lessor than that which is of the Christ, so the lessor was done away with when the true came.

Look to what Jesus talked and taught about. His concerns were mainly about the truth of the commandments of God, not the administration of priesthoods instituted by Moses. So we have the law of Moses regarding priesthoods and their administrations, and the commandments of God, the precepts of God, and the judgments of God - look at the specifics that God said Israel fell short in keeping the covenant. Don't you think it's more about the instructions in righteousness that He has decreed we should also do? And Jesus raised them to a higher level that what Moses gave, so it would be more difficult than the prior covenant if it were not for the Spirit given by God to His people.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#32 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
This is why the law was nailed to the cross, so that we might now have a relationship with God through our great high priest. The law pretty much prevented that because the sin issue had to be solved-the law stood in the way not because the law was bad but because we needed to be born again/changed/forgiven, having our sin erased. Now there is nothing to keep us from approaching the throne of God, with confidence.
Can you propose an answer to why Paul said what matters most is keeping the commandments of God, if the commandments of God were nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ?(I Cor. 7:19)

If it isn't about our works, then why at the end of Revelation does it identify those who by their works have the right to enter the City, and because of their works, others will receive just recompense?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#33 Jul 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I think there may be more to it than that. Note Genesis 26:5 regarding Abraham. What was God talking about for Abraham, when similar matters are noted? Some things from Abraham are recorded in Scripture - but possibly not all things. Abraham was to offer the sacrifice of his son - but was Abraham a priest? Or Noah? or Job?
The priesthood established by Moses is one thing, the commandments of God that were written in stone is another. So the word play between hearts of stone VS hearts of flesh, that a future people of God would keep His word from their hearts because God gave His Spirit to them to want to do them - not out of constriction, but out of love.
The ordinances of the priesthood have to do with particular administrations to atone for sins. With Aaronic it was much lessor than that which is of the Christ, so the lessor was done away with when the true came.
Look to what Jesus talked and taught about. His concerns were mainly about the truth of the commandments of God, not the administration of priesthoods instituted by Moses. So we have the law of Moses regarding priesthoods and their administrations, and the commandments of God, the precepts of God, and the judgments of God - look at the specifics that God said Israel fell short in keeping the covenant. Don't you think it's more about the instructions in righteousness that He has decreed we should also do? And Jesus raised them to a higher level that what Moses gave, so it would be more difficult than the prior covenant if it were not for the Spirit given by God to His people.
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Is this talking about only the priestly order when it speaks of the Old Covenant?

This is from the hebrew writer. Is Hebrews inspired?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#34 Jul 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you propose an answer to why Paul said what matters most is keeping the commandments of God, if the commandments of God were nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ?(I Cor. 7:19)
If it isn't about our works, then why at the end of Revelation does it identify those who by their works have the right to enter the City, and because of their works, others will receive just recompense?
We may be talking about two different animals. Keeping the law or commandments is not what causes the new birth. As Paul alludes to in Gal 6:15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. and in gal 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. We both know that circumcision was necessary under the law for a jew.

Even Jesus said that the law boiled down to two commandments. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Jesus was not against the law. As a devout Jew he honored it and kept it- thank God he did. But he must make the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, from the law of Moses to the law of Christ. That was his mission- to take us from law to grace/love. That is how/why we are saved and kept in the realm of grace not law. We can now keep the law (not the old written law) but the law of love which comes from the heart.

1 tim 1:5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 cor 3:6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life..

Btw, I did not copy someone else on this, it is my own research.

If you are looking for law, regulations and enforcement which brings death, it is easy to find, sometimes mercy is much harder to find-it's the pearl of great price-one we are willing to give everything to possess.
Mike Peterson

United States

#35 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
We may be talking about two different animals. Keeping the law or commandments is not what causes the new birth. As Paul alludes to in Gal 6:15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. and in gal 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. We both know that circumcision was necessary under the law for a jew.
Even Jesus said that the law boiled down to two commandments. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus was not against the law. As a devout Jew he honored it and kept it- thank God he did. But he must make the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, from the law of Moses to the law of Christ. That was his mission- to take us from law to grace/love. That is how/why we are saved and kept in the realm of grace not law. We can now keep the law (not the old written law) but the law of love which comes from the heart.
1 tim 1:5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 cor 3:6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life..
Btw, I did not copy someone else on this, it is my own research.
If you are looking for law, regulations and enforcement which brings death, it is easy to find, sometimes mercy is much harder to find-it's the pearl of great price-one we are willing to give everything to possess.
Isn't it fun to watch Protestants Sola Scripturize each other.

And they all think the HS speaks to them
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#36 Jul 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
I suppose you do know the context of this and what this meant for the captives?
I'm more inclined to see the passage as very useful companion with the Jeremiah 31:31 passage. Doesn't the NT say the Spirit didn't come to the people until Pentecost? And if you'd like to share what you think it meant to the captives...speak on!
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#37 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
We may be talking about two different animals. Keeping the law or commandments is not what causes the new birth. As Paul alludes to in Gal 6:15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. and in gal 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. We both know that circumcision was necessary under the law for a jew.
Even Jesus said that the law boiled down to two commandments. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus was not against the law. As a devout Jew he honored it and kept it- thank God he did. But he must make the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, from the law of Moses to the law of Christ. That was his mission- to take us from law to grace/love. That is how/why we are saved and kept in the realm of grace not law. We can now keep the law (not the old written law) but the law of love which comes from the heart.
1 tim 1:5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 cor 3:6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life..
Btw, I did not copy someone else on this, it is my own research.
If you are looking for law, regulations and enforcement which brings death, it is easy to find, sometimes mercy is much harder to find-it's the pearl of great price-one we are willing to give everything to possess.
I highly doubt that Paul would say the Law of God was a death bringer. We both accept he wrote I Cor, which is quite a letter and full of much that is in accord with the doctrine of God. Why would Paul say that which brings death is the most important thing? I Cor 7:19.

Hebrews 4 says the good news was preached to those before hand, but they didn't have the faith to do it.

David, whom God has testified as a man after His own heart, and the man by whose Seed the Messiah would come, testified quite highly in praising the word and law of God.

Read Psalm 119 and see if it says anywhere the same thing you read attributed to Paul. Paul, as a Rabbi who highly regarded the Torah and word of God - would never have said what that book in the NT has him saying. If anything, Paul was talking about the man made traditions and rules the Pharisees put over the actual word of God - which thing Jesus also rejected and warned against, calling everyone to what God decreed to start with - without the man made additions and subtractions.

Either Paul didn't write it to start with, or it was grossly mistranslated into the Greek and the original text said no such thing.

That's the only solutions that make any sense of it in my mind.

But please do show us from the rest of Scripture how the word of God is just so worthless. And be sure to tell God how worthless it is and that He should consider taking back His word about not changing what He said or that He upholds His word higher than His name....

No wonder Jesus commended the Church in the First Epistle of Revelation....
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#38 Jul 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I highly doubt that Paul would say the Law of God was a death bringer. We both accept he wrote I Cor, which is quite a letter and full of much that is in accord with the doctrine of God. Why would Paul say that which brings death is the most important thing? I Cor 7:19.
Hebrews 4 says the good news was preached to those before hand, but they didn't have the faith to do it.
David, whom God has testified as a man after His own heart, and the man by whose Seed the Messiah would come, testified quite highly in praising the word and law of God.
Read Psalm 119 and see if it says anywhere the same thing you read attributed to Paul. Paul, as a Rabbi who highly regarded the Torah and word of God - would never have said what that book in the NT has him saying. If anything, Paul was talking about the man made traditions and rules the Pharisees put over the actual word of God - which thing Jesus also rejected and warned against, calling everyone to what God decreed to start with - without the man made additions and subtractions.
Either Paul didn't write it to start with, or it was grossly mistranslated into the Greek and the original text said no such thing.
That's the only solutions that make any sense of it in my mind.
But please do show us from the rest of Scripture how the word of God is just so worthless. And be sure to tell God how worthless it is and that He should consider taking back His word about not changing what He said or that He upholds His word higher than His name....
No wonder Jesus commended the Church in the First Epistle of Revelation....
Barnsweb:I highly doubt that Paul would say the Law of God was a death bringer.

Rom 7:9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

I guess we are back to doubting that Paul was a true apostle...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#39 Jul 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Is this talking about only the priestly order when it speaks of the Old Covenant?
This is from the hebrew writer. Is Hebrews inspired?
Yes, but not in the Greek. We can both look and see the phasing out of the old animal sacrificial system that was not destroyed until about 70 AD.

That's a few verses of Hebrews, the author makes a number of points. The former was done away with - the true had come, the once for all sacrifice for the sins of the world - not just the Jews.

Jesus said to make disciples of Him, immerse them in the name of the FSH, and teach them to keep the same commandments He had given the original hand picked disciples.

Have you noted all the commandments of Jesus Christ? Or were they also nailed to the cross?

When I got in depth and explicit with what He taught - the conclusion is inescapable that He upheld all ten of the commandments of God and told us to do likewise.

Everyone should start with Matthew and note each and ever commandment Jesus gave them, then recall that we are called to the same standard of righteousness as Matthew, Peter, James and John.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#40 Jul 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Barnsweb:I highly doubt that Paul would say the Law of God was a death bringer.
Rom 7:9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
I guess we are back to doubting that Paul was a true apostle...
Let's look at it in the light of the purpose God said He send the Spirit. When we are in relationship with Christ that is 'if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God'..'shall we be saved by His life'... Our life, if His disciples, points that we all have much growing to do. We look into the mirror of the life and teachings of our Messiah and see we have great needs and many faults, but that as we continue to confess our faults as John said to, knowing the grace He has towards us, and that He sees in us that which we cannot ourselves see - that His love towards us demonstrates so well, how can we then think when we note our faults and work on them that this causes us to die? It causes us to live. It causes us to spring forward towards continuing to grow in Christ, and that as we do, it is Christ in us, not anything that is of ourselves. We only testify God is good and that we are disciples just as the original were. They weren't perfect - not a one of them. But they stayed with His and received whatever He had to tell them.

Paul, in his manner of life, also showed the same practice of pressing on to the high calling of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Paul never exhibited a life that 'He did it all for me, all I have to do is trust in His word for me, there is no need to do what He said.' Paul submitted to the command to be immersed for the forgiveness of his sins. Paul repented of his legalistic ways to put the words of men over the words of God about how we are to live as faithful servants of God. If Luke was correct, the errors he had stemmed from failing to recognize Peter or John or the other original disciples had anything he could benefit from. They did, but he thought to highly of his status and education to realize we all have something to learn. Paul was dead wrong on that account...if the record is so...

The Spirit is given that we will be drawn to do what God said because of His love for us and our love in return. Not because we're afraid we may not be perfect. Where did Jesus ever say He demands perfection or nothing? Did I miss that teaching?

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