New Guy's instrumental debate- psalms
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#42 Mar 23, 2013
THE ISSUE OF "WORSHIP"
The churches of Christ teach that there are five specific acts of worship that are to be done on Sundays inside the local assembly. These acts of worship are prayer, preaching, giving, taking the Lords Supper, and vocal singing only. The only time God is worshipped is during the "worship service" within the assembly on Sunday. Doing anything different, or changing this in any way, results in error and sin. The question-is this view correct?
What is worship? According to our Bibles and different concordances and dictionaries, worship has several ideas behind it. There are several different Greek and Hebrew words translated as worship, and add shades of meaning. One idea in both testaments is to prostrate oneself, to bow, crouch or stoop, to fall on ones face. We see many examples of this in scripture:
*Abraham fell down when the 3 men visited him, to tell of his coming son and to warn him about Sodom and Gomorrah.
*Moses fell on his face and worshipped God on Sinai.
*Joshua fell on his face when the captain of the Lords host approached him. He was told to remove his shoe for he stood on holy ground.
*Job fell and worshipped God after his troubles.
*Look at Jesus. He was worshipped in this same manner by the wise men, a leper, Jairus, His disciples on the sea, a syrophoenecian woman, women at His tomb, disciples at the resurrection.
*Cornelius fell at Peters feet and worshipped him.
*Many examples in Revelation.
Question-if falling on ones face and prostrating ones self is worship, why is this not a religious practice today? Is it not authorized? If one fell on his face during a church of Christ "worship service", would an elder pick him up and correct his strange fire, since this is not one of the five acts of worship?
*What did Paul say was possible in 1 Corinthians 14:25?
Other ideas behind worship are to pay homage to God, revere and adore, glorify, praise, show dignity and honor, pious, wait upon, and also the idea of service, working, and being a slave can be included in the worship of God.
*One cannot help but notice that nowhere in our New Testaments are any specific acts of worship named as such. Nowhere does the term worship hour or corporate worship occur. These truly are "the language of Ashdod". Nowhere are we told what is to take place during a "worship service". In fact, in Bond's dictionary we read this note on worship:
"The worship of God is NOWHERE defined in scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that
it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgment of God, of His nature, attributes, ways or claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment".
I believe this to be correct. If God has not strickly defined what is and is not worship, what authority do we have? God has not called preaching, praying, giving, communion, or singing vocally worship, nor has He restricted worship to these things, nor has He confined them to a specific time and place where they must be performed.
John 4 is a great passage of scripture. This is not time for full exegesis, but a dispute occurs between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. It is over where is the correct place to worship. We are very quick in the churches of Christ to quote verse 24-in spirit and truth. Amen! But do we forget about 21-that neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will anyone specifically worship the Father.
*There is no longer a central official "worship station". We do not have to check into the official coc congregation to do the specific acts of worship, because they are not limited in time nor location. As a spiritual priesthood we can all worship God wherever we are and whenever we desire. How?
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#43 Mar 23, 2013
Above should say Vines dictionary. To continue,

How can we worship God anytime anyplace? Read Romans 12:1-2. By offering ourselves as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God, which is our reasonable service. This verse is loaded with worship language in it. The Hebrew writer tells us that we can offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name. CONTINUALLY. That is not confined in time nor place.

*Am I saying then that the assembly is wrong, or that these 5 acts are not worship? Of course not. Instead, I am saying that worship is not limited to these things, worship is not limited to the "worship service" in the new temple (church building), and we can worship God anywhere on this earth.

We have some passages in scripture that tell us what goes on when the church is assembled. Hebrews 10:25 tells us there should be encouragement and exhortation going on. 1 Timothy 2 mentions prayer, lifting up holy hands, women not teaching men, and women's dress. 1 Corinthians 14 tells us that all things should be done decently and in order, for edification, and to lead someone to Christ is they are not Christians. Psalms are mentioned in this chapter. We read of the Lords Supper, love feasts, preaching, and other things occurring at church assemblies. All of these things are and can be worship, but they are also acts of love and service. Can we limit all of these to Sunday's only?

What does all of this have to do with instrumental music? Traditionally we have defined the idea of worship with incorrect terms and bound ideas that the scripture does not teach. Worship is not confined to one hour on one day in a specific location. Worship is not confined to five acts. Psalms have never been bound to being either vocal or instrumental ONLY, and we have no authority to do that.

Is all that we do worship? No of course not. One example that has been given is ice cream. Is eating ice cream worship? No. But is it worship if I thank my God for giving me such wonderful treats, and for all of His great blessings? Yes it is.
johnny

Buford, GA

#44 Mar 23, 2013
New Guy wrote:
HISTORY USED AS PROOF OF THE A CAPELLA POSITION
We are often told that early church history proves that the first Christians did not use instruments in their "worship". Thus, we have no precedent and are breaking the pattern laid out for us. What does history truly have to tell us?
*The early church fathers indeed were against instrumental music in the church services. There are several centuries' worth of condemnation written by these men. The documents are out there for all to find; I will not present them here. However, there are several problems with these historical writers which must be taken into account before we consider using them to prove our doctrinal positions today.
*We are warned several times in scripture to "do not go beyond what is written". Post Biblical history is exactly that, post Biblical. These men were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, their words do not form the canon of scripture. Many hold doctrinal positions that the churches of Christ would call abominable today.
*Their objections to instrumental music are not the same as those who object to the instrument today. Todays arguments are- no authority from Christ; singing only was authorized; strange fire; heart is the instrument; not of faith is sin; et al. The early church fathers objected on no Biblical grounds; rather, their objections came from a fear of sensuality and idolatry, imitating pagan or Jewish worship, Roman celebrations, and other such things. Again, the info is out there, search for this on your own.
*Some of these "fathers" also came up with the idea of "allegorizing" the scriptures-most notably those from the Egyptian city of Alexandria, who were afraid of imitating Egyptian pagan rites.
*A logical question-why does one argue so strongly against something that is said to never have happened? If no one was using the instrument, why argue against it?
*Are we comfortable following the lead and ideas of those who led the world into Catholicism and division?
*The historical writers are not all in agreement about when instrumental music was introduced into the churches. The answers range from 670 to 755 to 768 to the ninth century to 1200 years later. If these do not agree, how can we assume they are correct? There are also some who claim that the earliest Greek converts used instruments. Which is correct, or are any of these correct?
*These dates come from researching on bible.ca, a non-instrumental church of Christ website. Another interesting quote from bible.ca- "Nowhere has God CONDEMNED use of mechanical instruments in Christian worship; nowhere has God COMMANDED their use".
*My final argument about history is this-when we discuss "church history", it seems that we always go past Bible times into the second century and beyond. Have we forgotten this?
Galatians 3:7- "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham". A Christian is a spiritual descendant of Abraham. His history is our history. The Old Testament was written for our learning and as an example for us. The OT is not a history of Israel after the flesh, it is a history of God's people from Genesis to Malachi. It is MY family history, and OURS if we are in the faith.
Why then should we disregard our own ancient history, but accept the history of those who may or may not be our brethren? Only God knows where those "early church fathers" stand. We do not.
history tells us that of the GREATEST scholars involved with Bible Translations throughout the years, none of them have yet to translate any of the verses about which we are interested in a way as to suggest mechanical music!
johnny

Buford, GA

#45 Mar 23, 2013
if new guy is right, then why did the translating committee which contain lexicographers who believed that psallo could mean accompanied with mechanical, not so translate it?
The answer is this; when there is no mechanical instrument in the verse, the word is ALWAYS translated SING.
I have upwards of 15 translations an none of them translate Eph 5:19, 1Cor 14:15, heb 2:12, 13:15 Col 3:16 in such a way to promote mechanical music.
New Guy wants us to believe that upon his authority we should now do so?
johnny

Buford, GA

#46 Mar 23, 2013
Judges 5:3 sing every time
2 Sam 22:50 sing every time
Psa. 7:17 sing every time
Psa. 9:2 sing every time
Psa. 9:11 sing every time
Psa. 18:49 sing every time
Psa. 21:13 sing every time
Psa. 27:6 sing every time
Psa. 30:4 sing every time
Psa. 30:12 sing every time
psallo ...sing every time

Psa. 33:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:6 (4×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:9 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 59:17 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 61:8 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:4 (2×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 68:4 " "
Psa. 68:32" "
Psa. 71:22 " "
Psa. 71:23 " "
Psa. 75:9 " "
Psa. 92:1 " "
Psa. 98:4
Psa. 98:5
Psa. 104:33 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 105:2
Psa. 108:1
Psa. 108:3
Psa. 135:3" "
Psa. 138:1 " "
Psa. 144:9 " "
Psa. 146:2 " "
Psa. 147:7
Psa. 149:3

when psallo is not found in a verse without mechanical instruments mentioned in the context it is always SING.
The verses in the NEW TESTAMENT are verses that do not contain mechanical instruments in the context so the rule stands. The translators all knew this and they refused to break the rule.
NEW GUY will break it
johnny

Buford, GA

#47 Mar 23, 2013
corrected from above. I added a "NOT"
when psallo is found in a verse without mechanical instruments mentioned in the context it is always SING.
johnny

Buford, GA

#48 Mar 23, 2013
to make this clear, note 1 Sam. 16:16
if the HARP were not in the context, the translation would be
to seek out a man, who is a cunning singer...
but when an instrument is present in the context the word psallo can be translated "player" because the context contains this modifying phrase "on an harp"
With out a mechanical instrument psallo and its derivatives are ALWAYS translated as they are in the NEW TESTAMENT.
See Septuagint for examples of all the above verses to see if the rule is held to
johnny

Buford, GA

#49 Mar 23, 2013
New Guy wrote:
Above should say Vines dictionary. To continue,
How can we worship God anytime anyplace? Read Romans 12:1-2. By offering ourselves as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God, which is our reasonable service. This verse is loaded with worship language in it. The Hebrew writer tells us that we can offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name. CONTINUALLY. That is not confined in time nor place.
*Am I saying then that the assembly is wrong, or that these 5 acts are not worship? Of course not. Instead, I am saying that worship is not limited to these things, worship is not limited to the "worship service" in the new temple (church building), and we can worship God anywhere on this earth.
We have some passages in scripture that tell us what goes on when the church is assembled. Hebrews 10:25 tells us there should be encouragement and exhortation going on. 1 Timothy 2 mentions prayer, lifting up holy hands, women not teaching men, and women's dress. 1 Corinthians 14 tells us that all things should be done decently and in order, for edification, and to lead someone to Christ is they are not Christians. Psalms are mentioned in this chapter. We read of the Lords Supper, love feasts, preaching, and other things occurring at church assemblies. All of these things are and can be worship, but they are also acts of love and service. Can we limit all of these to Sunday's only?
What does all of this have to do with instrumental music? Traditionally we have defined the idea of worship with incorrect terms and bound ideas that the scripture does not teach. Worship is not confined to one hour on one day in a specific location. Worship is not confined to five acts. Psalms have never been bound to being either vocal or instrumental ONLY, and we have no authority to do that.
Is all that we do worship? No of course not. One example that has been given is ice cream. Is eating ice cream worship? No. But is it worship if I thank my God for giving me such wonderful treats, and for all of His great blessings? Yes it is.
this line of argument is only valid to those who are not willing to realize that the Bible is clear that an assembly of a particular nature is spoken about and in IT rules apply that do not apply at other times.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER IN THE CHURCH....
this does not mean in a building it applies to a particular assembly
it is not the same as described in 1Cor 11:5
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

When the WHOLE church is assembled there are rules that prohibit a woman from prophesying at all...
see
1Co 14:23 If therefore THE WHOLE CHURCH be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:34 ¶ Let your women keep silence IN THE CHURCHES : for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
johnny

Buford, GA

#50 Mar 23, 2013
here is the heart of NEW GUYS GOAL;

" Nowhere are we told what is to take place during a "worship service". In fact, in Bond's dictionary we read this note on worship:
"The worship of God is NOWHERE defined in scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that
it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgment of God, of His nature, attributes, ways or claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment".
I believe this to be correct. If God has not strickly defined what is and is not worship, what authority do we have? " (NEW GUY)# 42

I took this from his above quote;
if there is no definition for worship then why was jeroboam and his kind condemned?

1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.
NEW GUY IS FROM THIS GROUP BELOW....he claims there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG WORSHIP
Jg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#52 Mar 23, 2013
Johnny you wrote all of that against instrumental music and nothing at all for Jesus Christ.

Instrumental music is not a big deal.

Why should you care anyway?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#53 Mar 23, 2013
johnny wrote:
Judges 5:3 sing every time
2 Sam 22:50 sing every time
Psa. 7:17 sing every time
Psa. 9:2 sing every time
Psa. 9:11 sing every time
Psa. 18:49 sing every time
Psa. 21:13 sing every time
Psa. 27:6 sing every time
Psa. 30:4 sing every time
Psa. 30:12 sing every time
psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 33:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:6 (4×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:9 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 59:17 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 61:8 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:4 (2×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 68:4 " "
Psa. 68:32" "
Psa. 71:22 " "
Psa. 71:23 " "
Psa. 75:9 " "
Psa. 92:1 " "
Psa. 98:4
Psa. 98:5
Psa. 104:33 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 105:2
Psa. 108:1
Psa. 108:3
Psa. 135:3" "
Psa. 138:1 " "
Psa. 144:9 " "
Psa. 146:2 " "
Psa. 147:7
Psa. 149:3
when psallo is not found in a verse without mechanical instruments mentioned in the context it is always SING.
The verses in the NEW TESTAMENT are verses that do not contain mechanical instruments in the context so the rule stands. The translators all knew this and they refused to break the rule.
NEW GUY will break it
Where in the Bible do we even find the word 'mechanical'? You truly are delusional. Accustical - instrument or human voice - both cause vibrations in the wind to make a sound - which should be a joyful noise to the LORD. And btw, you need to get a copy of the AENT if you want to be as right as you can - which I believe is your desire, but you haven't been told how to get there. Recall, Jesus said if you want the truth that sets you free, that is known through being His disciple in deed - not just hearing and talking about it.
aent.org
Why not address the apologetic as presented and stop pretending they had mechanical devices back in the day:-)

And if 'mechanical' devices are prohibited - why do CoC use pitch pipes that have brass free reeds to tell them where to pitch the songs?:-)
Mike Conner

Lockhart, TX

#54 Mar 23, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Where in the Bible do we even find the word 'mechanical'? You truly are delusional. Accustical - instrument or human voice - both cause vibrations in the wind to ake a sound - which should be a joyful noise to the LORD. And btw, you need to get a copy of the AENT if you want to be as right as you can - which I believe is your desire, but you haven't been told how to get there. Recall, Jesus said if you want the truth that sets you free, that is known through being His disciple in deed - not just hearing and talking about it.
aent.org
Why not address the apologetic as presented and stop pretending they had mechanical devices back in the day:-)
And if 'mechanical' devices are prohibited - why do CoC use pitch pipes that have brass free reeds to tell them where to pitch the songs?:-)
This an othelos comments are typical. He said why does it matter and now you say something about the word mechanical.

Johnny showed you why the new testament does not authorize mechanical instruments of music after all of you said no one is coming on here to answer this heresy, and now its...."it dosent matter anyway" and "why do you use pitch pipes." These kind of answers are why gospel preachers dont waste more time on here with you all.

I sent new guy some rules and propostions for a ONE on ONE formal written discussion on this issue and he has not responded. I wonder why?
William

Eastaboga, AL

#55 Mar 23, 2013
Where does the NT forbid the use of musical instruments? Clearly stated ... DO NOT USE musical instruments in worship.

Where?

Or is not using them just another "necessary inference?"

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#56 Mar 23, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
This an othelos comments are typical. He said why does it matter and now you say something about the word mechanical.
Johnny showed you why the new testament does not authorize mechanical instruments of music after all of you said no one is coming on here to answer this heresy, and now its...."it dosent matter anyway" and "why do you use pitch pipes."
Johnny wrote roughly 100x more about music than what the New Testament says about it. And he still hasn't found a verse describing music instruments as a sin.
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>These kind of answers are why gospel preachers dont waste more time on here with you all.
We like when you waste time here because it lets us laugh at you.

Who made Johnny Robertson or you a "gospel preacher" anyway? Funny how Johnny is a gospel preacher but he has no elders in the church he preaches at.
Mike Conner

Lockhart, TX

#57 Mar 23, 2013
William wrote:
Where does the NT forbid the use of musical instruments? Clearly stated ... DO NOT USE musical instruments in worship.
Where?
Or is not using them just another "necessary inference?"
Where does the bible say....THIS IS WRITTEN TO WILLIAM? WHERE?
William

Eastaboga, AL

#58 Mar 23, 2013
Where does the word "Bible" show up in the Bible?

You see how stupid these "necessary inference" things can all of a sudden get.
Mike Conner

Lockhart, TX

#59 Mar 23, 2013
William wrote:
Where does the word "Bible" show up in the Bible?
You see how stupid these "necessary inference" things can all of a sudden get.
1 CORINTHIANS 14:38.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#60 Mar 23, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
This an othelos comments are typical. He said why does it matter and now you say something about the word mechanical.
Johnny showed you why the new testament does not authorize mechanical instruments of music after all of you said no one is coming on here to answer this heresy, and now its...."it dosent matter anyway" and "why do you use pitch pipes." These kind of answers are why gospel preachers dont waste more time on here with you all.
I sent new guy some rules and propostions for a ONE on ONE formal written discussion on this issue and he has not responded. I wonder why?
I sent you an email last Sunday night agreeing to certain debate rules, and said I awaited your response to lay out the parameters. To this point I have never received any email back from you. As I waited, we all learned that Heath apparently told you that Randy and "illegalists" were not to be trusted. So at that point, I decided to present my case here, for all to see in real time. This can be just as effective as a private debate. Welcome to the party, if you are allowed to talk to us now.

By the way, Johnny nor anyone else has come close to rebuking this "heresy". He has dodged the main issues and not addressed many of the points I have brought up.
Mike Conner

Lockhart, TX

#61 Mar 23, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
I sent you an email last Sunday night agreeing to certain debate rules, and said I awaited your response to lay out the parameters. To this point I have never received any email back from you. As I waited, we all learned that Heath apparently told you that Randy and "illegalists" were not to be trusted. So at that point, I decided to present my case here, for all to see in real time. This can be just as effective as a private debate. Welcome to the party, if you are allowed to talk to us now.
By the way, Johnny nor anyone else has come close to rebuking this "heresy". He has dodged the main issues and not addressed many of the points I have brought up.
Well if he didnt come close, why dont you have a public debate with johnny? Or maybe nobody will?

Oh wait.....that would require you to come out of the shadows and let people know who you all are.

If you all are ahamed and can live with it. So be it.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#62 Mar 23, 2013
johnny wrote:
Judges 5:3 sing every time
2 Sam 22:50 sing every time
Psa. 7:17 sing every time
Psa. 9:2 sing every time
Psa. 9:11 sing every time
Psa. 18:49 sing every time
Psa. 21:13 sing every time
Psa. 27:6 sing every time
Psa. 30:4 sing every time
Psa. 30:12 sing every time
psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 33:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:6 (4×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 47:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:7 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 57:9 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 59:17 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 61:8 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:2 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 66:4 (2×) psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 68:4 " "
Psa. 68:32" "
Psa. 71:22 " "
Psa. 71:23 " "
Psa. 75:9 " "
Psa. 92:1 " "
Psa. 98:4
Psa. 98:5
Psa. 104:33 psallo ...sing every time
Psa. 105:2
Psa. 108:1
Psa. 108:3
Psa. 135:3" "
Psa. 138:1 " "
Psa. 144:9 " "
Psa. 146:2 " "
Psa. 147:7
Psa. 149:3
when psallo is not found in a verse without mechanical instruments mentioned in the context it is always SING.
The verses in the NEW TESTAMENT are verses that do not contain mechanical instruments in the context so the rule stands. The translators all knew this and they refused to break the rule.
NEW GUY will break it
10 of the psalms you quoted were addressed to the "chief musician". What was a psalm in those days, and dit it include instruments possibly? What did the word psalm mean to the new testament writers? And if the meaning of psalm changed, give us Bible that explains that for us.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Martinsville Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
the church of Christ insider discussion boards (Aug '10) 20 hr BMDdl39 8
Church of Christ rules and principles (Apr '13) Dec 20 Credal Drone 306
THE CHILDREN of THE GOD MOST HIGH (May '14) Dec '16 randy 6
thomas jefferson edwards (Apr '16) Oct '16 NUKS67 3
Martinsville Seven - The Martinsville Curse (Mar '10) Oct '16 Santiago Ramey 10
Nickname of Stick Oct '16 A friend 1
Easter Auto Sales (Feb '12) Oct '16 donnawyattreed 9

Martinsville Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Martinsville Mortgages