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Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#385
May 21, 2013
 

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Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes but what does faithful disciples mean. I don't think it means reading the Bible and deciding yourself what faithful disciples mean.
It means what the Church says it means. The Church is the pillar of Truth not the Bible.
Paul says it is profitable for teaching. Phillip says how can you understand it without somebody teaching it, and Peter, the leader, says Paul's teaching is hard to understand and scripture is not for private interpretation.
Pretty clear to me. YOu have to be taught how to be a good disciple.
Have you read the passage where Jesus tells the apostles that they are all just brethren, and that He alone is to be the Teacher? What do you make of fitting that with saying the Church replaced Jesus as the Teacher? Just wondering...?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#386
May 21, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
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Sorry I said last comment on last post I lied. I do not make my arguments with history alone but support the truth with what history tells us. History was not wrong to use by the way as most of the NT writers used it as did the Bereans when making decisions.
What history did the Bereans use and what would it have told them of the topic at hand?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#387
May 21, 2013
 
Here are two early posts from JustChristian:

Now lets look at this in proper context of the whole of the bible.

1. Matt 28:18ff gives clear direction as to what was fixing to happen and expected of those
a. The apostle would remember all that Christ taught
b. The apostle were to teach everything Christ taught as the Holy Spirit would direct them.
c. The apostles were to teach nothing except what Christ told them.
d. The church was to follow the teaching of these inspired men and should not adhere to anything not authorized by Christ.

2. There is no implication, example, or command of the instrument being used in worship in the NT record. This is important because after the transfiguration it was understood that Not Moses nor Elijah but only Christ instructions were now to be followed as Given through the Holy Spirit.
We do not have the authority of Christ.

3. You can not Use the Instrument by Faith in worship.
Rom 14:23 addresses this in a sense. "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

2 Corinthians 5:7 Paul says we are to "walk by faith, not by sight." To walk by faith is to walk as God's Word directs. If God's Word does not direct an action, it is not 'of faith' and therefore is sin!

To add the instrument without instruction from the head of the church (Christ), is to deny the head of the Church. Ephesians 5:24, "Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

4. To worship without authority no matter how good it seems is vain worship. Examples throughout the bible on this one. John 4:24, Jesus declares, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Truth is the Word of God (John 17:17)

5. It causes Division.

God is for unity and those that require the instrument are divisive not the ones singing only.

"I know of no cases where the instrument was already in use and non-instrumental brethren tried to force it out and possess the property, but the reverse has occurred many times."(Biblical Notes, Volume IX, July, 1975, page 27).

Where the instrument was introduced, churches split and division is an ugly picture, contrary to true Christianity (I Corinthians 1:10).

Probably more to follow but not now.

*Here is the biblical argument why the instrument should not be used in worship. And when you honestly then ask what the NT church actually did you can only come to one honest conclusion. The first Century Church did not use the instrument because they followed the NT teaching of Christ and his words.

Because it does not have the authority of Christ.(Matthew 28:18; Ephesians 5:24).

Because we cannot do so "by faith".(Romans 14:23; 10:17).

Because to do so would make our worship vain.(Matthew 15:9). Because to do so would be to reject Christ as the head of the church.(Ephesians 1:22-23).

Because the use of the instrument in worship is contrary to the doctrine of Christ.(2 John 9).

Because it causes divisions.(Romans 16:17).

Because it does not pertain to life and godliness.(2 Peter 1:3).

Now simply show a command Of CHRIST (Doctrine of Christ)(Law of liberty) that claims use of the instrument, or an example of the church using the instrument, or an inference that they did use the instrument and you have me. Its ok with me if you convict me with historical support as I believe the scripture of God is not destroyed by historical accounts but confirmed. History is important for most of the apostles used it in convicting those who they were trying to persuade to leave Jewish faith and become CHrisitans.

*We're going to focus on these ideas tomorrow.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#388
May 22, 2013
 
Now lets look at this in proper context of the whole of the bible.

*Dave P-in neither post do we see anything from the Old Testament, thus we do not have the proper context from the whole of the Bible.

1. Matt 28:18ff gives clear direction as to what was fixing to happen and expected of those
a. The apostle would remember all that Christ taught
b. The apostle were to teach everything Christ taught as the Holy Spirit would direct them.
c. The apostles were to teach nothing except what Christ told them.
d. The church was to follow the teaching of these inspired men and should not adhere to anything not authorized by Christ.

*Dave P-no issues with a and b. But with c, if this is true, we have at least one clear "violation" by the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 7:6, 25, 40. As for d, we see no such admonition from Jesus, and we do see "innovations" within the scriptural record itself, not to mention numerous "innovations" that we all use every week. Love feasts have no recorded authorization from Jesus or an apostle-just apostolic witnesses testifying that these occurred.

2. There is no implication, example, or command of the instrument being used in worship in the NT record. This is important because after the transfiguration it was understood that Not Moses nor Elijah but only Christ instructions were now to be followed as Given through the Holy Spirit.
We do not have the authority of Christ.

*Dave P-this is the infamous CENI view of interpretation. Volumes have been written both for and against it. I agree-we are to "Hear ye Him"! But the word apostle means "delegated authority". Apostles have the authority of the One that sent them. According to Paul the evangelist-in the Bible example Timothy-was given the qualification of elders, and the authority to lay hands on or ordain elders. Elders are also authority figures in the church.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#389
May 22, 2013
 
3. You can not Use the Instrument by Faith in worship.
Rom 14:23 addresses this in a sense. "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

2 Corinthians 5:7 Paul says we are to "walk by faith, not by sight." To walk by faith is to walk as God's Word directs. If God's Word does not direct an action, it is not 'of faith' and therefore is sin!

*Dave P-these two scriptures are examples of how the Bible can be used out of context. Romans 14 is clearly speaking of disputable matters, matters of opinion, and the conflicts arising due to Jewish believers returning to Rome and reentering the church. Questions of the law, among others, are at play here-this section gives credibility to the ALLOWANCE of instrumental music, not ban of them!

Romans 14:23-"whatever is not of faith is sin"-is speaking of matters of conscience, what a man believes to be right or wrong, not about whether something is commanded or not.

2 Corinthians 5:7- look at the context surrounding the verse. 4:18 speaks of the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are eternal. Then we see Paul discussing taking off the earthly tent, the body. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Again, nothing here said about things not commanded or written down.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#390
May 23, 2013
 
Because to do so would make our worship vain.(Matthew 15:9.
John 4:24, Jesus declares, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Truth is the Word of God (John 17:17)

*Dave P-Again, Matthew 15:9 appears to be a scripture taken out of context. Jesus never declares "tradition" to be a sin in itself. The problem with "traditions", as Jesus clearly points out, is when they break the commandment of God and make His words of no effect, as their treatment of 'corban' violated one of the "Big 10". We also see Jesus taking aim at the Pharisees' habit of binding traditions as if they were God's commandments-another area we get into trouble.

*Yes we must worship in Spirit and truth. Truth is according to His word; Spirit can be taken several ways-with the indwelling Holy Spirit, or with our spirit in the right manner, etc. Jesus's emphasis is about getting past the physical mindset in this passage-not in a certain place, certain time, etc. but in spirit and truth.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#391
May 23, 2013
 
Because the use of the instrument in worship is contrary to the doctrine of Christ.(2 John 9).

*Dave P-instruments are nowhere in sight in this passage. Context-specifically written about those antichrists and deceivers coming into the world who did not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. The gnostics of those times, some still do so today. Using "the doctrine of Christ" in this manner can become a hammer that can be used against anyone who doesn't conform to our specific beliefs.

Because it causes divisions.(Romans 16:17).
*Dave P-read the passage cited. Dead objects don't cause divisions, people cause divisions. Paul had just wrote 2 chapters explaining how Christians are to get along and deal with matters of opinion. Perhaps we are all in for a crash course about this today.

Because it does not pertain to life and godliness.(2 Peter 1:3).
*Dave P-?

Now simply show a command Of CHRIST (Doctrine of Christ)(Law of liberty) that claims use of the instrument, or an example of the church using the instrument, or an inference that they did use the instrument and you have me.

*I think we have here a difference of opinion about the law of liberty. We are told how to fulfill it-bear one another's burdens, love God with all our being, and love our neighbor as ourselves. Love is the fulfillment of law. We don't need a CENI-S to fulfill the law.

1 Corinthians 14 gives us a good understanding of what our services need to be about. We could all use a good study of that chapter.

Since: May 10

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#392
May 23, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>

God has declared acceptable. And He has declared both types of singing-with or without instruments-to be acceptable to Him. This is not about what we desire.
Finally, are you reading all of the catholic discussion? That is exactly why I warned against using history to make your arguments. We are then forced to acknowledge that those men we quote on music led the world into the mess called catholicism. Try then telling a catholic that their sources are in error when you use them to justify your position on instrumental music.
Sorry again but I could not let this slide without the Dave answering. Bobby actually answered this.

Dave would you please reference from the Bible where BOTH types of WORSHIP are acceptable to God. Please show the NT WORSHIP command to sing and Play, because if you simply bring forth the worship from the JEWISH system you are not much different from those requiring Gentiles to follow that system.

Also Yes I am not scared the Catholics historical accounts will harm the bible, I actually believe when research just the opposite happens, History supports the bible. How can I bring people to Christ and say "whatever you do dont look at History"

Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#393
May 23, 2013
 
Dave, you have a good handle on workings of the Spirit which brings liberty verses following law mixed with traditions. I now see you as being in the break out movement of the Coc- loosening the chains that bind. It is a good place to be:-)

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#394
May 23, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Dave, you have a good handle on workings of the Spirit which brings liberty verses following law mixed with traditions. I now see you as being in the break out movement of the Coc- loosening the chains that bind. It is a good place to be:-)
:)
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#395
May 23, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry again but I could not let this slide without the Dave answering. Bobby actually answered this.
Dave would you please reference from the Bible where BOTH types of WORSHIP are acceptable to God. Please show the NT WORSHIP command to sing and Play, because if you simply bring forth the worship from the JEWISH system you are not much different from those requiring Gentiles to follow that system.
Also Yes I am not scared the Catholics historical accounts will harm the bible, I actually believe when research just the opposite happens, History supports the bible. How can I bring people to Christ and say "whatever you do dont look at History"
Always asking never answering. Anyway here goes...
*First of all, look at your language. "Show the command...requiring gentiles..." I get the idea that you read the NT like you would read Leviticus or Deuteronomy, like I mentioned in another post. The law of Christ is not law in the sense of the law of Moses, a law of do's and don't do. The law is fulfilled by love. Love leads us to follow.

*I'll answer your question with a challenge-show me where we're COMMANDED to sing in the new covenant. In Ephesians and Colossians neither is a command. 1 Corinthians 14 tells us we may all have a psalm, but it isn't commanded. James 5 tells those who are merry to sing psalms. That is mode of command, more of an exhortation due to the language construction.

*Not bringing forth anything from the Jewish system and REQUIRING people to do anything. That's the big difference between you and I. You are seeing law and commands- "if it's accepted by God, then we must all do it". I see liberty-if both are acceptable, then we can do either, and if its from our heart God accepts it.

*This whole thread has been about playing being acceptable alongside with our singing. No need rehashing it all. Question for you-how does having instruments alongside singing negate the effects of our singing? After all, we get in trouble with Jesus when we bind tradition on others and negate the word of God with our tradition.

*History does support the Bible. We are in agreement. The problem is that post-apostolic history (2nd century forward) is not inspired and isn't the word of God. Much of Mike P's posts come from history and CCC, not the Bible-the Bible doesn't support his beliefs. Historical writers condemned instruments for unbiblical reasons. Many coc use historical writers to confirm their preferences against instruments, although their reasons are not the same-those same arguments you brought up that I earlier highlighted.

Taking historical evidence that the early church didn't use instruments, then concluding that through the apostles' and Jesus' teachings it must have been condemned, is speaking where God has not. Especially when some gentile converts did use instruments, and when it is highly possible that "tradition" and opinion is the reason instruments were not widely used in synagogues. Perhaps the first century church was merely following tradition.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#396
May 23, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Dave, you have a good handle on workings of the Spirit which brings liberty verses following law mixed with traditions. I now see you as being in the break out movement of the Coc- loosening the chains that bind. It is a good place to be:-)
Thank you sir. We all need liberty, but some prefer chains. Sometimes we need some graceful old-timers to help show us the way :)
cali forni

United States

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#397
May 23, 2013
 

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Just Christian should change his name to "just ask questions" because he never answers but always is asking questions.
It's a good debate move on his part. In debate class it's taught to ask questions when given a question. This way you avoid having to answer. It's a sign of weakness.
It means he has no set position or rebuttal; instead, he most likely understands the fragility of his position.

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#398
May 23, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
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Always asking never answering. Anyway here goes...
cop out.

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#399
May 23, 2013
 
cali forni wrote:
Just Christian should change his name to "just ask questions" because he never answers but always is asking questions.
It's a good debate move on his part. In debate class it's taught to ask questions when given a question. This way you avoid having to answer. It's a sign of weakness.
It means he has no set position or rebuttal; instead, he most likely understands the fragility of his position.
Who cares what you think I should or should not do.

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#400
May 23, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>

*I'll answer your question with a challenge-show me where we're COMMANDED to sing in the new covenant. In Ephesians and Colossians neither is a command. 1 Corinthians 14 tells us we may all have a psalm, but it isn't commanded. James 5 tells those who are merry to sing psalms. That is mode of command, more of an exhortation due to the language construction.
First you say both singing and playing is and was acceptable to God. Now you that you can not find that command you say it is not a a command. So Why do you sing at all? Is that not you making worship to God your idea now?

Wow
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#401
May 23, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
First you say both singing and playing is and was acceptable to God. Now you that you can not find that command you say it is not a a command. So Why do you sing at all? Is that not you making worship to God your idea now?
Wow
Some believe it is ok to dance. Even King David danced naked in the streets:-)
Dave P

United States

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#402
May 23, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
First you say both singing and playing is and was acceptable to God. Now you that you can not find that command you say it is not a a command. So Why do you sing at all? Is that not you making worship to God your idea now?
Wow
Said from the beginning it isn't a command. Prove that it is a COMMAND. Find it and show us.
Dave P

United States

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#403
May 23, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
cop out.
It's a cop out when I answer your questions?

Is it a cop out when you only ask questions?
Dave P

United States

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#404
May 23, 2013
 
Work time now. Later folks.

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