New Guy's instrumental debate- psalms

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New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#21
Mar 21, 2013
 
I will generally abstain from making any comments or rebuttals while I am doing this. After I am finished I will answer some of the objections. I am reading and enjoying the comments on both sides, so keep them coming! Probably 3 or 4 more installments will be enough.

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#22
Mar 21, 2013
 

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At the time Paul wrote his epistles, they would have understood “Psallo” to mean what it meant in the Old Testament. If not, I am still waiting for JC or someone to show where IN THE BIBLE that the word changed to a capella.

JC insist that we find authorization for musical accompaniment yet he cannot show where the word “Psallo” changed to a capella. If he cannot show this, it means that musical accompaniment is still allowed [authorized] as it was under the Old Testament.

Furthermore, Paul said,“SING……“and” MAKE MELODY.” Paul didn’t say, SING and SING. The word “and” that falls between SING____MAKE MELODY means TWO acts done heartfully unto the Lord. It’s like “repent AND be baptized”- the conjunction is tied to TWO verbs not one. The same is true when Paul said “sing” PLUS “make melody” with all of your heart unto the Lord.

Melody is a reference to MUSIC. Paul said SING ‘and’ MAKE MUSIC with all of your heart unto the Lord.

Those who insist that the “heart” is THE INSTRUMENT should do a word study on that phrase. Paul was not saying SING ‘plus’ MAKE MELODY with your heart strings.

2 Samuel 6:5 And David and all the men of Israel “made melody” before the Lord with all their power, with songs and with corded instruments and instruments of brass.

1 Kings 10:12 And from the sandal-wood the king made pillars for the house of the Lord, and for the king's house, and instruments of music for the “makers of melody” never has such sandal-wood been seen to this day.

1 Chronicles 15:19 So those who “made melody”, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were put in position, with brass instruments, sounding loudly;

1 Chronicles 15:27 And David was clothed with a robe of fair linen, as were all the Levites who took up the ark, and those who “made melody”, and Chenaniah the master of those who made melody; and David had on a linen ephod;

1 Chronicles 23:30 They had to take their places every morning to give praise and “make melody” to the Lord, and in the same way at evening;

Psalms 33:2 Give praise to the Lord on the corded instrument; “make melody” to him with instruments of music.

Psalms 92:1 A Psalm. A Song for the Sabbath. It is a good thing to give praise to the Lord, and to “make melody” to your name, O Most High;

Psalms 95:2 Let us come before his face with praises; and “make melody” with holy songs.

Psalms 96:1 O make a new song to the Lord; let all the earth “make melody” to the Lord.

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ILIKETHIS

Charlottesville, VA

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#23
Mar 21, 2013
 

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Nobody touching this post i do wonder why. They cant answer this one or they would. keep it up you all helping us see the truth
Jeff

Woodford, VA

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#24
Mar 21, 2013
 

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I am right there with ya on that. Where is.heath, Johnny, James, Micah, mark, caleb, mike, Cody,and the whole crew now.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#26
Mar 21, 2013
 

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IS INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC A SIN?

We must ask ourselves this question-is instrumental music in our "worship" to God a sin? Let's go back in our history, to the OT, to get some background.

Instrumental music was not originally part of the law of Moses. All recognize that the use of instruments was brought forth from King David. In 2 Chronicles 29:25 we see an interesting revelation. We find that the ultimate source of instrumental music in "worship" was God Himself. This was not David acting presumptuously, or David instituting "will worship". God gave the order through the prophets.

*In fact, David did disobey the Lord and go against His wishes during his life. David conducted a census of Israel that God did not approve of. God sent a pestilence out against Israel as a result. How about his romp with Bathsheba? God took their son. If instruments in worship is sin, why was David not stricken for this? Is it possible it was and is not sin?

Many will now say, "we are not under the law now, we are new testament people. Amen! However, we may be disregarding something very important about the law, and primarily the purposes the law was given. According to Paul in Romans 7:7, "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Nay, I had not known sin, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, thou shalt not covet". The law revealed to man what sin was. Question- was instrumental music in worship declared to be sin in the law of Moses? No, absolutely not. Has God changed His mind, revealed in His word on this subject? No. How can we declare something to be sin that God has not declared to be so? Do we have that authority?

Some will say that Romans 14:23 declares that instrumental music in worship is sin, because God has not authorized or commanded instrumental music in worship, and the NT does not specifically mention it. Some points:

*God has never revoked His authorization of instrumental music in worship;
*We have shown that psalms can mean either vocal or instrumental music;
*Romans 14:23 says no such thing as it is accused of. It does not say that anything not specifically authorized by God is sin. The context of chapter 14 is "doubtful disputations", opinionated matters, and matters of conscience. If you notice the end of the chapter, whatever not of faith is sin refers to something that a person is not fully convinced is permissible in his conscience. Yet if he eats though he has doubts about it, he is condemned because he is not doing so in faith. This says nothing about all things needing authority of God to be acceptable to Him in worship.

*Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:23, "all things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient for me". If all things are lawful, how can we tell an apostle he is wrong?

Happy is he that condemneth not himself in the thing which he alloweth. More to come.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#27
Mar 22, 2013
 
During His time on earth Jesus continual theme was to nulify the commandments of men and tell them to go back to what God declared to be true and good. So what God has called good, no man should call a sin.

Jesus taught truth and didn't say if someone believed a commandment of men was sinning against God if they believed a matter to be a sin, but God had not said it was a sin. If anything, He taught them to repent of commandments of men and obediance to God through doing what He was teaching them and modeling to them.

Paul, on the other hand, taught sin to be individual's conscience and belief. The trouble is multiplied due to the lack of folks today that are willing to crack their Bibles open to see what God has said and to abide in the doctrines Jesus taught.

We can all see where the elevation of the words of Paul as gotten us as a whole. I think we all have need to go back and believe what God said through His Son. Just look at the opportunities for division that are caused by putting what Paul said on the pedistal - not to mention taking the word of the uninspired Greek translation over what was originally said in Hebrew and Aramaic or any discernment to see Paul's Helenistic Rabbinical leanings.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#28
Mar 22, 2013
 
BW, not going to comment in detail now, but the above post is very good. You make one great point about Jesus and what He did, and later I will want to discuss something you said about Paul and what he taught to be sin. The two actually go together quite well, of only the world understood it.

Thanks for your input. Feel free to add more. I am paying attention to all comments. Will respond more fully when the case is finished.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#29
Mar 22, 2013
 

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THE SILENCE ARGUMENT

Many who oppose the use of instruments in "worship" often cite the law of silence. That is, if God does not specifically authorize something, then it unscriptural and therefore sin. Does this hold any merit? Let's examine.

*We have seen that psalm can mean either instrumental or non instrumental music. Both are at play here.
*Can we honestly say that in the two scriptures in question, Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, that Paul means "singing ONLY"? We object to our Lutheran and evangelical friends when they say we are saved by faith "only". The reason is because it is not in the text and is simply man's opinion. If we add only to singing in these texts, are we not as well promoting our interpretations and opinions, and not Gods will?

*1 Chronicles 15:19 says that "So the singer's Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass". There are other passages that are similar. We see singers who are not singers only. They played instruments as well. If God has not commanded or said singing ONLY, who are we to do so?

*There is no mention whatsoever of a "worship service or worship hour" in the NT. The passages in Ephesians and Colossians are in a generalized setting, there are no instruction here mentioned about congregational activities.

*Paul wrote to the preacher Timothy, and told him in 1 Timothy 3:15 that he wrote to him so "that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth". Yet, he mentions nothing of music nor a worship service to Timothy nor Titus.

*Paul does mention psalms in 1 Corinthians 14:26. Is it possible that solo acts are permissible?

*Acts 2 mentions nothing of music nor a worship service. However we do see the disciples in the temple daily (where there was instrumental music present) and they were PRAISING GOD. Is it possible they were PRAISING God accompanied with instrumental music?

*If silence is prohibitive, what about synagogues, extra Jewish festivals, or fruit of the vine during Passover? The scripture is silent on these, yet Jesus participated in them all. Was He in error or sin?

*We are often told that Hebrews 7:14 is proof of Gods prohibitive silence. That is not true however, because God did speak of which tribe the priesthood was to come from. It was Levi, not Judah.

*Nadab and Abihu are also used as examples of what happens when silence is violated. However, they also did not violate silence. God had spoken about the offerings of incense. They disregarded Gods specifics, and their attitude led to their destruction. This is not about violating silence no being presumptuous.

*Mark 7 gives us good warning about binding rules that God has not. If God is indeed silent on a thing, are we better than Him? Can we legislate where He does not, or is there liberty there? Brethren, if God truly is silent on something, we must be as well. If God is specific, we should be as well. If God is general in speaking, we should allow liberty in such things. God has neither condemned nor commanded instrumental nor vocal music, so we must not as well.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#30
Mar 22, 2013
 
I left out of the above post that in neither Ephesians 5:19 nor Colossians 3:16 is singing COMMANDED. In Ephesians the command is "be filled with the Spirit". Colossians the command is "Let the word of Christ dwell in you". Singing is one way these are to be done, but are not commands. In James 5:13, he says that those who are merry should sing psalms. Who was James' audience, and what did they think a psalm was?

Since: Jul 11

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#31
Mar 22, 2013
 
I find it odd that nobody has attempted to refute none of this. Only leads me to believe it cant be refuted or else it would be.

Johnny, you are reading these, why not answer? I'd like to see both sides to this. NEW GUY makes a VERY strong case.

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3/22/2013
joe blue

United States

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#32
Mar 22, 2013
 
John isn't going to touch this thread. I can't say that I blame him. This thread kills the a Capella only clique.

Since: Mar 13

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#33
Mar 22, 2013
 
Dave, I look forward to the next post. For now, I must hit the hay ... my kids will have me up with the chickens. lol. Have a good nite. ttyl.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#34
Mar 23, 2013
 
Paul and Luke were close associates, and as I've noted before in posts, Luke wrote a gospel account so people could know for a surity what they were being instructed in - the doctrine of God as told by the Son of God. That is what they were called to become - disciples of Jesus Christ. So when Paul notes 'let the word of Christ dwell in you richly', that's what comes to my mind - that he's encouraging them in their discipleship to Jesus and whatever He taught and commanded.

In this passage I think Paul had much good to say, but most don't see it as I do:-)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#35
Mar 23, 2013
 
A side bar that is related, sort of:

One of my hobbies is antique organs, and I hope to write some music - composed on them - to put to music some of the words of the Lord that we should enjoy praising Him in song with.

As with Crosby and Shankey, they may be composed on the reed organ or harmonium, but it will be just fine to sing them A-Cappella as well if you so choose and don't have a good old pump organ..:-0
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#36
Mar 23, 2013
 
ps: NewGuy, I'm really enjoying your sound use of the Scriptures on the topic:-)
William

Jacksons Gap, AL

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#37
Mar 23, 2013
 

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The Bible is also "silent" on the use of air conditioning in church buildings but that hasn't prevented the CoC from using it in their assemblies.

You see how ridiculous these sorts of "inferences" can get.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#38
Mar 23, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
During His time on earth Jesus continual theme was to nulify the commandments of men and tell them to go back to what God declared to be true and good. So what God has called good, no man should call a sin.
Jesus taught truth and didn't say if someone believed a commandment of men was sinning against God if they believed a matter to be a sin, but God had not said it was a sin. If anything, He taught them to repent of commandments of men and obediance to God through doing what He was teaching them and modeling to them.
Paul, on the other hand, taught sin to be individual's conscience and belief. The trouble is multiplied due to the lack of folks today that are willing to crack their Bibles open to see what God has said and to abide in the doctrines Jesus taught.
We can all see where the elevation of the words of Paul as gotten us as a whole. I think we all have need to go back and believe what God said through His Son. Just look at the opportunities for division that are caused by putting what Paul said on the pedistal - not to mention taking the word of the uninspired Greek translation over what was originally said in Hebrew and Aramaic or any discernment to see Paul's Helenistic Rabbinical leanings.
BW thanks for your encouragement. Before I continue on, I want to make a comment about this post. You are correct. What God has called good no man should call it sin or declare it to be so. And Jesus has indeed pointed us to Gods standards, and not man's.

This instrument issue is much like the issues of food offered to idols, special days, and such that Paul dealt with in Rome and Corinth. There was nothing wrong with any of those things, yet some people in their spiritual weakness did not understand that. The only reason those things were sin to them was their conscience, not Gods commands. Pail did explain exactly what he thought sin was in the passage from Romans. It was the law that revealed sin to him. He did not change the meaning of what sin was, but simply expanded our horizons by revealing that it was the conscience and our hearts that also play a role in what is sin to us-much as Christ did when He said it was what came out of the heart, not what went into the body, that was sin.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#39
Mar 23, 2013
 
I'm sure Paul wrote what he thought, but I'll just have to disagee on a couple of things that for all I've been able to determine, are not actually in keeping with what Jesus taught. It's such a disappointment that he didn't value what the original disciples knew from Jesus - that really seems to be the difference.

So many CoC believe what they've been told, as do many and every Church - precious few people have the desire to prove truth - that they are abiding in the truth rather than words of men or tradition or that some prior family member chose the Church poorly. Until people can get our of faith and religion being a habit to a living faith built upon the Son of God - it's just a really bad picture. There came a time in my life that I had to take these words under advisement:

Re investigate all you've been told and reject that which offends your soul.

The next is akin to it and Bonnhoeffer (sp?) was so close to it - that the need is believe, hear and obey whatever Jesus taught - rather than think it's merely about generalities to love one another and pray for our enemies - although this is what a lot of it is, the other is also fact.

Peter agreed with what Moses said about Jesus in Acts 3:22,23, so how some pretend to toss the Torah where this is recorded just shows the rank nonsense that some have been taught to believe - and if Jesus was their Teacher they would recognize the difference.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#40
Mar 23, 2013
 
William wrote:
The Bible is also "silent" on the use of air conditioning in church buildings but that hasn't prevented the CoC from using it in their assemblies.
You see how ridiculous these sorts of "inferences" can get.
Hmmm, my favorite observation is they will use a reed pitch pipe, but not a reed organ:-)
William

Jacksons Gap, AL

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#41
Mar 23, 2013
 
And pews! With cushions even!

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