Dave P

Lexington, KY

#365 May 15, 2013
JustChristian: Because one historical writer may have said the instrument was used, going against the rest of the historical accounts does not make your argument.

Dave P-the historical writers were never my argument, but this one man (whom many coc often quote to support their position) shows that the consensus is not unanimous. You yourself had to admit in your last post that this man did say the early Greek converts did use instruments. That alone throws a wrench into the whole "instruments were never used until the Catholics introduced them"; and it also tells us one other thing-gentile converts may not have had the same "scruples" on instruments that many SAY the Jewish believers had. These same gentiles were brought into the church by the apostles were they not?

*The gentiles were warned about certain things in Acts 15. Why did the Holy Spirit not mention anything about music, nor any apostle, to these gentiles?

JustChristian-If the practice was never changed then it is wrong to not continue in it. Make a stand. I say NO to the instrument.

Dave P-first, is there a scripture that supports "if the practice was never changed then it is wrong to not continue in it". Making law there it appears. Love feasts anyone? We all are in sin-no apostolic order to stop nor command from God. We all must reinstate the love feasts immediately!

God commanded instruments in the OT and never told us that it was no longer good and acceptable. The study I posted from the coc above gave accounts that may show that the stopping of music in the synagogues was do to captivity and subjection of Israel by foreign powers-not by direct of God. It became a "tradition" that was still ongoing during the first century. Perhaps no music in the assemblies is just that- a tradition.

JC-I dont like personal choices when it comes to the worship of God I like Gods advice on those areas.

You like God's advice, or your opinion?

Again, you say NO to the instrument-good for you. No problem with me. Don't bind on others what God has not.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#366 May 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:
JustChristian: Because one historical writer may have said the instrument was used, going against the rest of the historical accounts does not make your argument.
I will respond to this faulty line of argument you use. If this is not the case then why are you also using this argument?:)

I have also never seen where you answered a question I have asked several times, you may have.

Were Psalms ever sang only without the instrument or did all of them require the instrument?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#367 May 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:

God commanded instruments in the OT and never told us that it was no longer good and acceptable. The study I posted from the coc above gave accounts that may show that the stopping of music in the synagogues was do to captivity and subjection of Israel by foreign powers-not by direct of God. It became a "tradition" that was still ongoing during the first century. Perhaps no music in the assemblies is just that- a tradition.
I dont believe instruments were ever used in synagogues.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#368 May 16, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I will respond to this faulty line of argument you use. If this is not the case then why are you also using this argument?:)
I have also never seen where you answered a question I have asked several times, you may have.
Were Psalms ever sang only without the instrument or did all of them require the instrument?
I use the "historical argument" to show that those who use it are arbitrary in their attention to it and disregard the information they don't like. I have seen the quote from Dickinson on several coc web pages. They use it as proof that the early church did not use instruments bit then disregard what he said about the early Greek converts.

I have said several times that psalms would have been sung with and without instruments. Some were specifically directed to the chief musician. Others were not.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#369 May 16, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont believe instruments were ever used in synagogues.
That's the point. The lesson from our coc brother makes the case that due to being in captivity, away from Jerusalem, subjugated, that the Jews thought it to be inappropriate to be celebrating and praising God with instruments. This "tradition" he says continued to the first century. There was no "thus saith the Lord" for this tradition, no scriptural reason-just opinion.

The synagogue itself is a creation of man, not God, but Jesus Himself nor the apostles had any problems going into one.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#370 May 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I use the "historical argument" to show that those who use it are arbitrary in their attention to it and disregard the information they don't like. I have seen the quote from Dickinson on several coc web pages. They use it as proof that the early church did not use instruments bit then disregard what he said about the early Greek converts.
I have said several times that psalms would have been sung with and without instruments. Some were specifically directed to the chief musician. Others were not.
My point was if your claim is historical writers can not be used in the proving of the lack of instrumental music, you can not use it to make the proof otherwise either.

Thank you for stating the the word psalm did not have in its meaning that an instrument had to be used.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#371 May 16, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont believe instruments were ever used in synagogues.
Your belief does not make it so, but you can believe anything you want to:-)

Fyi, I've asked Jews about it, and some use instruments and some don't.

The issue is what God has said, and if the word of God is only true some of the time, of if His word is eternally true.

When you answer what you believe about this, the rest falls into place. As for me, I trust what Jesus said:'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'

God has delayed judgments when people repent, out of His goodness and grace, but standards of right and wrong - do's and don'ts - those don't change. The heavens and earth exist from the power and nature of His word, and we can't be who we should be if we don't grasp that...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#372 May 16, 2013
I love to hear Sola Scriptura believers argue over what a Catholic book means or doesn't mean. Just saying....
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#373 May 16, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
I love to hear Sola Scriptura believers argue over what a Catholic book means or doesn't mean. Just saying....
Sounds like spiritual pride to me-just saying...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#374 May 16, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like spiritual pride to me-just saying...
You bet I am very proud and happy to be a member of the Church Jesus himself started and promised would never fail and is the pillar and foundation of Truth. How awesome is that!!!!

I want everybody in the world to be a Catholic. Don't you want everybody in the world to be a Baptist or are you just defending on point of "view".
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#375 May 16, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You bet I am very proud and happy to be a member of the Church Jesus himself started and promised would never fail and is the pillar and foundation of Truth. How awesome is that!!!!
I want everybody in the world to be a Catholic. Don't you want everybody in the world to be a Baptist or are you just defending on point of "view".
No, I do not think in those terms. I want everyone to come to Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior. It is up to God to place them in body where he pleases.

18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#376 May 17, 2013
JustChristian: My point was if your claim is historical writers can not be used in the proving of the lack of instrumental music, you can not use it to make the proof otherwise either.

Dave P-many coc do just that-try to use historical writers to prove their position. I don't believe history bears this out. So then, I am not allowed to use historical writers to show how they contradict what those who use history claim? If those who point to history have any who would contradict, then this throws their whole argument into chaos and doubt. And, OUR REAL HISTORY-the Old Testament-shows without a doubt the acceptance and blessing of instrumental music by God.

JustChristian: Thank you for stating the the word psalm did not have in its meaning that an instrument had to be used.

Dave P- don't recall making such a statement, but I have NEVER said in any discussion of scripture or words, that instruments HAVE to be used. I try not to make law where God has not. God accepted both singing only and that accompanied with instruments in our past history.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#377 May 18, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You bet I am very proud and happy to be a member of the Church Jesus himself started and promised would never fail and is the pillar and foundation of Truth. How awesome is that!!!!
I want everybody in the world to be a Catholic. Don't you want everybody in the world to be a Baptist or are you just defending on point of "view".
Jesus wants us all to be faithful disciples of His, after all, He did say to make 'disciples', not Christians or Catholics:-) But I'll have to agree with the fact that God does not condemn the use of instruments in praise to His name!:-)
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#378 May 18, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus wants us all to be faithful disciples of His, after all, He did say to make 'disciples', not Christians or Catholics:-) But I'll have to agree with the fact that God does not condemn the use of instruments in praise to His name!:-)
Yes but what does faithful disciples mean. I don't think it means reading the Bible and deciding yourself what faithful disciples mean.

It means what the Church says it means. The Church is the pillar of Truth not the Bible.

Paul says it is profitable for teaching. Phillip says how can you understand it without somebody teaching it, and Peter, the leader, says Paul's teaching is hard to understand and scripture is not for private interpretation.

Pretty clear to me. YOu have to be taught how to be a good disciple.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#379 May 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
JustChristian: My point was if your claim is historical writers can not be used in the proving of the lack of instrumental music, you can not use it to make the proof otherwise either.
Dave P-many coc do just that-try to use historical writers to prove their position. I don't believe history bears this out. So then, I am not allowed to use historical writers to show how they contradict what those who use history claim? If those who point to history have any who would contradict, then this throws their whole argument into chaos and doubt. And, OUR REAL HISTORY-the Old Testament-shows without a doubt the acceptance and blessing of instrumental music by God.
JustChristian: Thank you for stating the the word psalm did not have in its meaning that an instrument had to be used.
Dave P- don't recall making such a statement, but I have NEVER said in any discussion of scripture or words, that instruments HAVE to be used. I try not to make law where God has not. God accepted both singing only and that accompanied with instruments in our past history.
Im sorry your "dont use but I can use historical arguments" is not consistent. If you dont believe historical writers on this just say so and dont go there at all.

So your last statement means that God was ok with the introduction of the instrument in the OT temple worship but it would have been ok without it? Im now getting the idea that worship to God is simply a matter of what man desires, because that is where this leads.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#380 May 20, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Im sorry your "dont use but I can use historical arguments" is not consistent. If you dont believe historical writers on this just say so and dont go there at all.
So your last statement means that God was ok with the introduction of the instrument in the OT temple worship but it would have been ok without it? Im now getting the idea that worship to God is simply a matter of what man desires, because that is where this leads.
Personally, the word of God is enough to prove that use of instruments, or lack thereof, is acceptable to God. I did not introduce the arguments of history into this-that was done many years ago. However, I see no problem in pointing out that some historians in fact contradict the narrative that the coc has presented that "no one used the instrument until RCC introduced it".

*Here's the thing- we should be worried about the truth coming out. You seem to be more concerned with style or "rules" or whatever else. No "debate" took place between myself and whoever-I decided to use this forum to post my thoughts, research, and scripture.

My last statement has nothing to do with what man desires-it has to do with what God has declared acceptable. And He has declared both types of singing-with or without instruments-to be acceptable to Him. This is not about what we desire.

Finally, are you reading all of the catholic discussion? That is exactly why I warned against using history to make your arguments. We are then forced to acknowledge that those men we quote on music led the world into the mess called catholicism. Try then telling a catholic that their sources are in error when you use them to justify your position on instrumental music.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#381 May 21, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>

My last statement has nothing to do with what man desires-it has to do with what God has declared acceptable. And He has declared both types of singing-with or without instruments-to be acceptable to Him. This is not about what we desire.
Here is my last question for your comment above. Would you please reference from the bible where it is acceptable in NT christian church worship that God declared both types of worship acceptable.

I agree this is not what we desire. Now the burden of proof lies in your finding that proof.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#382 May 21, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>

Finally, are you reading all of the catholic discussion? That is exactly why I warned against using history to make your arguments. We are then forced to acknowledge that those men we quote on music led the world into the mess called catholicism. Try then telling a catholic that their sources are in error when you use them to justify your position on instrumental music.
Sorry I said last comment on last post I lied. I do not make my arguments with history alone but support the truth with what history tells us. History was not wrong to use by the way as most of the NT writers used it as did the Bereans when making decisions.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#383 May 21, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is my last question for your comment above. Would you please reference from the bible where it is acceptable in NT christian church worship that God declared both types of worship acceptable.
I agree this is not what we desire. Now the burden of proof lies in your finding that proof.
In my opinion this whole thing is murky, so I have pretty much stayed out of it. The scripture below is why...

But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith;

*and everything that does not come from faith is sin.*

If you believe you should not use instruments in worship, then by all means continue to do so.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#384 May 21, 2013
We have over 300 posts of me making my case. Perhaps JC it's time for you to destroy that case.

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