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21 - 40 of 51 Comments Last updated May 13, 2013

Since: May 10

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#21
May 8, 2013
 
There are many who claim the indwelling of the HS that say it allows them to feel something different and know things differently then others. That is taking the role of being mores special then other Christians that also have the same indwelling. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. The Corinthian church got into this trouble with their Special gifts making them more special in their speaking in tongues etc. Love should have been teaching them that they could not use the gifts in that way.

The bible tells us many things about the Spirit, It indwells the christian, All christians. It does things in the christians life. It does not direct the Christians every decision but allows freedom to even leave the faith. The bible also does not tell us everything that deity does. Those are the secret things that are forbidden for the Christian to speculate about. Trusting that God, Christ and the HS are operating is vital. To go into that forbidden area is what many try to do and never find the answer.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#22
May 8, 2013
 
I disagree that we don't know what the Spirit does while indwelling the Christian. Passages like Romans 8, 1 John 2 tell us what the Spirit does for us.

Perhaps we don't fully understand how God dwells in us. I can agree with that. But the scripture does tell us what the Spirit does.

Since: Jul 11

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#23
May 8, 2013
 
Mike is missing my point. The indwelling of the Spirit is DOCTRINE just as MDR is DOCTRINE. Yet, flexibility is tolerated/permitted on these teachings but try that with musical aids in "worship" and see how it goes. My point: treatment of doctrines are inconsistent.

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#24
May 8, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
I disagree that we don't know what the Spirit does while indwelling the Christian. Passages like Romans 8, 1 John 2 tell us what the Spirit does for us.
Perhaps we don't fully understand how God dwells in us. I can agree with that. But the scripture does tell us what the Spirit does.
Please post those text so we can see what the text tells us that we do know.

Since: May 10

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#25
May 8, 2013
 
When the spirit tells us through his own words what he does, how he indwells, how he functions in our lives it simply takes trust and acceptance of that. When man goes beyond that text message from the HS> His very own words, then we are not only not trusting but speculating something beyond what we are suppose to know.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#26
May 8, 2013
 
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,“Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

From Suffering to Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

This is probably the most complete idea we have.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#27
May 8, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Mike is missing my point. The indwelling of the Spirit is DOCTRINE just as MDR is DOCTRINE. Yet, flexibility is tolerated/permitted on these teachings but try that with musical aids in "worship" and see how it goes. My point: treatment of doctrines are inconsistent.
Agree.

Since: May 10

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#28
May 8, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Mike is missing my point. The indwelling of the Spirit is DOCTRINE just as MDR is DOCTRINE. Yet, flexibility is tolerated/permitted on these teachings but try that with musical aids in "worship" and see how it goes. My point: treatment of doctrines are inconsistent.
Would like to hear the thoughts on flexibility allowed as you see it with the HS topic and the flexibility that should be allowed on MDR.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#29
May 8, 2013
 
Brethren can disagree on how the Spirit indwells, what He does, etc; some say a literal indwelling inside the believer, others believe word only. No fellowship lines are drawn, even though brethren often very heatedly disagree.

MDR-we had two on this very thread who disagreed over who was allowed to remarry. No fellowship lines were drawn between the two. Question-would you and those two brethren have fellowship with someone who believes as Randy and I do? Some might, some may not. Is disagreement on this a fellowship issue?

IM-no question. The other two coc men involved here, along with JR and Heath, see those who use IM as lost. Sinning, erring brethren. No fellowship with them. Spirit differences-fellowship. MDR difference-depends. IM-no chance. What's the difference when all of it is doctrine?

Those are my two cents. Hopefully Randy adds his.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#30
May 8, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
So we know what you think of the coc. I was wondering what you thought of the verse of God that I posted.:)
First of all it was written to the OT believers before the Spirit was given, so it has no direct correlation to the indwelling of the Spirit. It applies to the Jewish law and not to the law of the Spirit as found in Rom 8:2.

Because the verse you gave does not apply, I ignored it.

This may be a little off subject:

My 10 yr old gran daughter did not seem very interested in praying with me the other day. So I asked her if she knew anyone she wanted us to pray for. She said her grandmother on the other side might miss their upcoming flight to the west coast because of illness. We prayed for her and I said God answers prayer, you watch and see what he does.

1 john 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Since: Jul 11

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#31
May 8, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Brethren can disagree on how the Spirit indwells, what He does, etc; some say a literal indwelling inside the believer, others believe word only. No fellowship lines are drawn, even though brethren often very heatedly disagree.
MDR-we had two on this very thread who disagreed over who was allowed to remarry. No fellowship lines were drawn between the two. Question-would you and those two brethren have fellowship with someone who believes as Randy and I do? Some might, some may not. Is disagreement on this a fellowship issue?
IM-no question. The other two coc men involved here, along with JR and Heath, see those who use IM as lost. Sinning, erring brethren. No fellowship with them. Spirit differences-fellowship. MDR difference-depends. IM-no chance. What's the difference when all of it is doctrine?
Those are my two cents. Hopefully Randy adds his.
Not really much to add. Your two cents is right on the money.

Since: May 10

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#32
May 8, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all it was written to the OT believers before the Spirit was given, so it has no direct correlation to the indwelling of the Spirit. It applies to the Jewish law and not to the law of the Spirit as found in Rom 8:2.
Because the verse you gave does not apply, I ignored it.
This may be a little off subject:
My 10 yr old gran daughter did not seem very interested in praying with me the other day. So I asked her if she knew anyone she wanted us to pray for. She said her grandmother on the other side might miss their upcoming flight to the west coast because of illness. We prayed for her and I said God answers prayer, you watch and see what he does.
1 john 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Now this is a hoot. First you claim that coc people do not use or study the OT and when I bring to light a very key verse about the nature and look into the way God views things you claim it not applicable.

It applies to the way God deals with things and how trust in our creator should be at the for front. Whether it was talking to them at that time it also speaks to us now. But thanks for you insight.

Since: May 10

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#33
May 8, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all it was written to the OT believers before the Spirit was given, so it has no direct correlation to the indwelling of the Spirit. It applies to the Jewish law and not to the law of the Spirit as found in Rom 8:2.
Because the verse you gave does not apply, I ignored it.
This may be a little off subject:
My 10 yr old gran daughter did not seem very interested in praying with me the other day. So I asked her if she knew anyone she wanted us to pray for. She said her grandmother on the other side might miss their upcoming flight to the west coast because of illness. We prayed for her and I said God answers prayer, you watch and see what he does.
1 john 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Oh yeah I forgot the Spirit was given to people in the OT times. Even to an Ass.:)
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#34
May 8, 2013
 
Why would the passage from Deuteronomy not apply today? The secret things still belong to the Lord, and speculation is not a place the Christian needs to dwell in.

Still wondering why MDR and the Spirit doctrines are different from IM. Also, if error and differing opinions are allowed on Spirit indwelling, why no tolerance in baptism doctrine? The gift of the Spirit is an inseparable promise from baptism according to Acts 2:38. We can't get baptism wrong, but the Spirit? Well, no big deal.

Since: Jul 11

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#35
May 9, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Why would the passage from Deuteronomy not apply today? The secret things still belong to the Lord, and speculation is not a place the Christian needs to dwell in.
Still wondering why MDR and the Spirit doctrines are different from IM. Also, if error and differing opinions are allowed on Spirit indwelling, why no tolerance in baptism doctrine? The gift of the Spirit is an inseparable promise from baptism according to Acts 2:38. We can't get baptism wrong, but the Spirit? Well, no big deal.
Again, some of the same points I’ve made with other people from other forums.

I’d like somebody to explain the rules here. Some “doctrines”-‘MDR/Indwelling of the Spirit’ are treated entirely different from music the “worship service”- why? Where is Heath and Johnny when these types of questions arise? Oh, the same place they were when http://graceconversation.com/ were discussing these issues.

Here is something else odd as well. Some have come here downplaying the Indwelling of the Spirit, suggesting its not a doctrine of importance. Yet, conservative church of Christ preacher Mac Deaver is considered an apostate for certain positions he has on the Spirits work in the believer. One of his sons, Todd, also labeled an apostate after releasing his book that revealed the many inconsistencies within the coc. I suppose long as Mac and Todd keep things to themselves they would be in good standing with God but having openly discussed their views many breather declared them as wayward.

And, one that we all know- Wayne Jackson: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/715...

It seems Wayne Jackson believes in a literal, personal indwelling NOT a metaphorical expression suggesting that only the Spirit’s influence, by means of the inspired Word. Wayne Jackson states the “word only” position does not adequately explain all of the biblical data on this theme.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#36
May 9, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh yeah I forgot the Spirit was given to people in the OT times. Even to an Ass.:)
I have heard this many times from coc members. The only reason I can see for this response is that that is the best you can do to deny Holy Spirit indwelling-and you are trying to deny it at least in principle.

The Holy Spirit was given to men in the OT but it was not a permanent thing as we have in the new covenant. So yes they were acquainted with the concept.

As far as the donkey speaking, I would say that the Holy Spirit was not inside of that dumb animal. Cartoons even make animals appear to come alive talking and thinking like people.

My fear is that you are clueless about the work of the Indwelling of the Spirit-hope I am wrong.

I have heard through my many years in the coc when they would pray like this. Speaking of the preacher or teacher "give him a ready recollection of everything he has prepared to say today". That is about the closest thing to the Spirit working in our lives that I ever heard from them. Basically they were void of the principle of Spirit indwelling. I know, not all coc's are like that.

The worst case scenario is that if we do not have the Spirit we do not belong to Him.

Rom 8:9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

It is a serious issue!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#37
May 9, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, some of the same points I’ve made with other people from other forums.
I’d like somebody to explain the rules here. Some “doctrines”-‘MDR/Indwelling of the Spirit’ are treated entirely different from music the “worship service”- why? Where is Heath and Johnny when these types of questions arise? Oh, the same place they were when http://graceconversation.com/ were discussing these issues.
Here is something else odd as well. Some have come here downplaying the Indwelling of the Spirit, suggesting its not a doctrine of importance. Yet, conservative church of Christ preacher Mac Deaver is considered an apostate for certain positions he has on the Spirits work in the believer. One of his sons, Todd, also labeled an apostate after releasing his book that revealed the many inconsistencies within the coc. I suppose long as Mac and Todd keep things to themselves they would be in good standing with God but having openly discussed their views many breather declared them as wayward.
And, one that we all know- Wayne Jackson: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/715...
It seems Wayne Jackson believes in a literal, personal indwelling NOT a metaphorical expression suggesting that only the Spirit’s influence, by means of the inspired Word. Wayne Jackson states the “word only” position does not adequately explain all of the biblical data on this theme.
I think you and Dave are right on track. It is worthwhile to note that the coc has always had a tendency to deny certain aspects of Holy Spirit indwelling because it does harm to certain parts of their doctrine. But, most of their war on this heated up when the Pentecostal movement began to rise up in the late 1800's. I think they went to far in the opposite direction debating with them. As a result the denomination has been hamstrung in this area for many years.

Since: May 10

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#38
May 9, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have heard this many times from coc members. The only reason I can see for this response is that that is the best you can do to deny Holy Spirit indwelling-and you are trying to deny it at least in principle.
The Holy Spirit was given to men in the OT but it was not a permanent thing as we have in the new covenant. So yes they were acquainted with the concept.
As far as the donkey speaking, I would say that the Holy Spirit was not inside of that dumb animal. Cartoons even make animals appear to come alive talking and thinking like people.
My fear is that you are clueless about the work of the Indwelling of the Spirit-hope I am wrong.
I have heard through my many years in the coc when they would pray like this. Speaking of the preacher or teacher "give him a ready recollection of everything he has prepared to say today". That is about the closest thing to the Spirit working in our lives that I ever heard from them. Basically they were void of the principle of Spirit indwelling. I know, not all coc's are like that.
The worst case scenario is that if we do not have the Spirit we do not belong to Him.
Rom 8:9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
It is a serious issue!
# 1. I can not figure out if you cant read or just want to continue lying about me. I believe in the indwelling of the HS. I will not be force to agree with your thoughts on indwelling.

#2. I never said the Spirit was given as given in NT times in the OT yet it was given to different people for all kinds of purposes.

#3. As far as a donkey you have no idea and neither do I how it indwelled the Donkey. By the way you have no idea and nor do I how that happens even today.

#4. As far as prayer of a Christian How dare you to even talk of such as the Spirit interceeds for that person to deliver the prayer to the Father and for you to speak of how a human prays denys the HS in a sense.

Since: May 10

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#39
May 9, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you and Dave are right on track. It is worthwhile to note that the coc has always had a tendency to deny certain aspects of Holy Spirit indwelling because it does harm to certain parts of their doctrine. But, most of their war on this heated up when the Pentecostal movement began to rise up in the late 1800's. I think they went to far in the opposite direction debating with them. As a result the denomination has been hamstrung in this area for many years.
Please post those things and the people that have denied the HS aspects. You broadly make claims that you need to be more specific about.

I challenged you before on this without you ever answering. How does the Human Spirit function in the human Body? If you can answer this I will listen to you on the HS.

Since: Jul 11

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#40
May 9, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
This idea that, if God helps me do something, then, if I fail, it is His fault, is very poorly reasoned--regardless of the kind of help talked about. For example, the Bible helps me avoid sin (Ps 119:11). Following Hatcher's reasoning, if I still sin, I can blame the Bible at judgment. The brethren help me to be faithful (Heb 10:24). According to Hatcher's thinking, if I become unfaithful, I can blame the brethren at judgment. Just because a brotherhood editor hurls an accusation does not mean it was fit to print.

Hatcher criticizes the concept that God could give wisdom to a saint directly in answer to prayer. But, he can produce neither passage nor ontological principle which disproves the concept. No one is saying that is the only way God grants wisdom. But, in light of NT teaching, it certainly seems within the range of divine option. Read again James 1:5 and Ephesians 3:20.

And, Hatcher pokes fun at Mac Deaver for maintaining spiritual fellowship with those who are weakening the church, as though an inconsistency obtained. What a shallow criticism. The church suffers to some degree at the hand of various members, including those who have not studied as much as they should (Heb 5:12), deacons who are not industrious, elders who make unwise choices, members who do not give as much as they should, song leaders who cannot carry a tune, Bible class teachers who do not spend enough time in lesson preparation, preachers who only dispense milk and not meat, etc. Am I to become a Diotrephes (cf. 3 Jn 9,10) and cast them all out of the church? Has Michael Hatcher withdrawn Christian fellowship from every child of God who is a weakening factor in the church?

I knew Bob Berard. He was a former teacher while I was in preaching school, and a personal friend before dying on the Cambodian mission field in 2003. He was a righteous man "of whom the world was not worthy" (cf. Heb 11:38), who was verbally accused without mercy and shamefully treated by some of his own brethren, though a day of reckoning is fast approaching. I do not want anybody, friend or foe, to be lost. But I will say it is disgusting the way some supposed Christians treat other brethren with whom they disagree over a matter that does not affect their obligations to Christ, or the way we worship God.

Mac Deaver has held three public debates on the Holy Spirit, all of which are in print. He is willing to do it again, especially since no opponent thus far has been effective at overcoming the arguments presented. Most of his opponents have even made a very poor case in making their own argument. As one acquainted with him, I can say that Mac Deaver rejects both Calvinism and modern day miracles of any stripe. Any charge to the contrary is unfounded. I may not be able to stop you from distributing or believing what Hatcher and others write, but, if you would like to ask Mac Deaver, himself, what he believes, I have his address. As he wrote in a manuscript appearing in the November 2000 Denton Lectureship book, many of us are out of touch with our own past. We have no clue what many of the pioneer preachers taught on the Spirit, merely assuming that the "politically correct" line issuing from one or two preaching schools among us must represent what the Restorers taught, when nothing could be further from the truth. Some of us live under a delusion which causes us to think a teaching is novel heresy when, in fact, it was advocated long ago by some of the most respected pioneer preachers.

Some have gotten way too hot under the collar on this question, and we need cooler heads to prevail before we rush out and sever sacred fellowship over a matter that has been blown out of all proportion in the minds of a few.

-Weylan Deaver

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