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21 - 40 of 124 Comments Last updated Jun 1, 2013

Since: Jul 11

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#21
May 24, 2013
 
When did “the church” accept sprinkling? Did not “the church” argue over this? However, with much debate, making it an acceptable substitute for immersion. I wonder if the Orthodox church sprinkles? Hmm. My point: the RCC has “evolved” its doctrine, or perhaps a sola scriptura way to put it- fallen from grace; apostasy; been bewitched.

"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him" Matthew 3:16

"And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away." Acts 8:38-39
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#22
May 24, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
One thing though: the church of Christ do debate from Scripture. I rather do that any day than with a Catholic. The RCC not only debate OUTSIDE of the revealed, inspired, Word of God; they go against what has been written.
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9”
Wonder if calling Catholic leaders FATHER, is a good thing?
__________
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Matthew 6:7”
If you have ever watched Catholics on TV or been to a service, its quite robotic, routine, and repetitious.
__________
Is Mary the mediator between God and man as implied/taught in the RCC? Wonder what those Rosary Beads represent? Hmm. Wonder how many "Hail Marys" are tied to them beads? Hmm. Wonder if we can turn in our Bibles and find those "Hail Marys"
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5
"While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."" Luke 11:27-28
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Nothing the Church teaches in the areas of faith and morals is umbilical.

Meaningless repetion is the issue. Can you every prayer to the Father too much. Jesus prayed the same prayer 3 times in the Garden of Geth. each time so long it put the apostles to sleep. Was that meaningless. HE said the same thing 3 times in a few hours.

A Catholic can never say the rosary as long as he lives and still be a good Catholic. IT is not a requirement. I had that issue at first and then the light came on. It is honoring Jesus by honoring his Mother.

Mediator. Don't ask anybody to pray for you.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#23
May 24, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Paul never said he was a bishop (elder) or that he ever decided to be one. You are incorrect about Jesus. He is the chief Shepherd. He has a bride, husband of one wife, He has children. Jesus is very qualified to be our chief Shepherd. As for Paul, one does not have to be a bishop to be a leader. Ever hear of apostles or evangelists?
If you have a brother in sin, and he doesn't listen to one, then two or three, then yes it goes before "the priesthood of believers" the church. Jesus did not set up the complex system of polity that the RCC follows. That was done post Bible times. Bible church polity is simple- apostles, prophets, evangelists, then elders. Apostles are dead, prophecy is done. Leaves vangelists and elders. Every congregation should have elders if men are qualified. Evangelists preach, teach the lost, plant churches, etc. No pope or "bishop" in Rome to answer to.
Lampstand in the tabernacle shows us how many books God inspired and who decided what they were.
Did Paul have to say he was Bishop? Of course he was. He was an Apostle and all the Apostles were Bishops. He ordained Timothy by the laying on of hands. Only Bishops can do that.
Dave P

United States

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#24
May 24, 2013
 
Ashdod talk all of it. Very tiring.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#25
May 24, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Ashdod talk all of it. Very tiring.
I forget. Out of all the Millions of Protestants who believe in SS, the Holy Spirit tells only you the truth and lies to the rest.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

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#26
May 24, 2013
 
Randy: One thing though: the church of Christ do debate from Scripture. I rather do that any day than with a Catholic. The RCC not only debate OUTSIDE of the revealed, inspired, Word of God; they go against what has been written.

Agree with this point and also about Catholicism going outside scriptures for all their discussions. Think I'm done discussing the language of Ashdod and Babylon. Back to more important topics and discussions.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#27
May 25, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Randy: One thing though: the church of Christ do debate from Scripture. I rather do that any day than with a Catholic. The RCC not only debate OUTSIDE of the revealed, inspired, Word of God; they go against what has been written.
Agree with this point and also about Catholicism going outside scriptures for all their discussions. Think I'm done discussing the language of Ashdod and Babylon. Back to more important topics and discussions.
Why would you want to debate the Bible with a SS point of view. Just to show people you can quote the Bible. Everybody is right when you believe in Sola Scriptura It is impossible to be wrong. So you debate and at the end what do you have? Dave believing what the HS told him is right and Bobby believing what the HS told him is right.

It is like debating whether a painting from Monet is beautiful. It is a personal opinion.

The Bible is Gods written word as determined by the CC. It is profitable for teaching.

Now lets debate on who is going to do the teaching? Dave or the the Church Jesus started which is the Pillar and ground of truth.

I understand your frustration with a Catholic. I was a protestant once.

Dave: Name one thing, that the Catholic Church believes that is biblical. You can read the CCC free and that has everything the Church believes with footnotes from the Bible.

Remember the Church existed before the Bible and even before the first scripture had ever been written.

Plus there is nowhere in the Bible that says it that everything you want to know is in the Bible.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#28
May 25, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would you want to debate the Bible with a SS point of view. Just to show people you can quote the Bible. Everybody is right when you believe in Sola Scriptura It is impossible to be wrong. So you debate and at the end what do you have? Dave believing what the HS told him is right and Bobby believing what the HS told him is right.
It is like debating whether a painting from Monet is beautiful. It is a personal opinion.
The Bible is Gods written word as determined by the CC. It is profitable for teaching.
Now lets debate on who is going to do the teaching? Dave or the the Church Jesus started which is the Pillar and ground of truth.
I understand your frustration with a Catholic. I was a protestant once.
Dave: Name one thing, that the Catholic Church believes that is biblical. You can read the CCC free and that has everything the Church believes with footnotes from the Bible.
Remember the Church existed before the Bible and even before the first scripture had ever been written.
Plus there is nowhere in the Bible that says it that everything you want to know is in the Bible.
That is an un-biblical but clever way of saying that the true church is catholic and that tradition is valued higher than inspired scripture. I think you have alienated yourself from this group. What do you think Randy?
Dave P

Versailles, KY

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#29
May 25, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That is an un-biblical but clever way of saying that the true church is catholic and that tradition is valued higher than inspired scripture. I think you have alienated yourself from this group. What do you think Randy?
I'll let Randy speak for himself, but I totally agree with you. If the inspired scripture isn't THE authority, and it takes a back seat to THE "CHURCH" and tradition, then I personally have nothing else to discuss, because we don't even have a common starting point.

Example from above- "The CCC is full of footnotes from the Bible". Now the scriptures are footnotes? Please. My frustration isn't frustration at all. It's sadness about the chains that groups have over people, especially when reading for yourself God's word can remove those chains.

*Here's a thought. Mike began searching because his preachers all preached something different. He went into catholicism, and it seemed attractive because the same thing was taught uniformly throughout the world at the same time. KEY-all the same. Many don't want or desire diversity in belief or opinion or practice. Many prefer law, a code, uniformity. There's familiarity, comfort, and safety under the "schoolmaster" so to speak.
William

Anniston, AL

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#30
May 25, 2013
 

Judged:

2

The RCC is appealing because it offers a package deal approach to Christianity. Somebody else is in charge, all I have to do is show up and do what they say, and everything will work out fine. Cradle-to-grave.

Just trust us, they will say. WE know what's best for you. Hasn't that always been the Real Appeal
Mike Peterson

Sumrall, MS

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#31
May 25, 2013
 

Judged:

1

William wrote:
The RCC is appealing because it offers a package deal approach to Christianity. Somebody else is in charge, all I have to do is show up and do what they say, and everything will work out fine. Cradle-to-grave.
Just trust us, they will say. WE know what's best for you. Hasn't that always been the Real Appeal
You are exactly right. I will rember to use this post in the future. Jesus had the full package and created the church to protect it.

The Prots got their hands on the package and took the parts they wanted and each created their own package and those were opened again again and again and again.

Now the true package from cradle to grave is ignored and ridiculed.
Mike Peterson

Sumrall, MS

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#32
May 25, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll let Randy speak for himself, but I totally agree with you. If the inspired scripture isn't THE authority, and it takes a back seat to THE "CHURCH" and tradition, then I personally have nothing else to discuss, because we don't even have a common starting point.
Example from above- "The CCC is full of footnotes from the Bible". Now the scriptures are footnotes? Please. My frustration isn't frustration at all. It's sadness about the chains that groups have over people, especially when reading for yourself God's word can remove those chains.
*Here's a thought. Mike began searching because his preachers all preached something different. He went into catholicism, and it seemed attractive because the same thing was taught uniformly throughout the world at the same time. KEY-all the same. Many don't want or desire diversity in belief or opinion or practice. Many prefer law, a code, uniformity. There's familiarity, comfort, and safety under the "schoolmaster" so to speak.
Unity. Jesus prayed for it. Same thing taught throughout world. You are exactly right. One Universal church.

Jesus insisted on the uniformity of belief. It is a hard teaching and they left him

Did the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit have unity through diversity in belief?

Heresy
William

Decatur, GA

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#33
May 25, 2013
 
The Protestants saw the RCC for what it was. A complete fraud, and a militant, dangerous one at that.

But then they proceed to create Diet Coke versions of the same fraud. Hijacking Acts 2 to create your church basis will always end in failure because that church was a purely Jewish assembly. After Acts 7, it got taken over by James and the law-keepers. It is not the Body of Christ, which isn't in the picture until Paul comes along and reveals it.

You've been sold a bill of goods. Get out now while you still can.
Mike Peterson

Sumrall, MS

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#34
May 25, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll let Randy speak for himself, but I totally agree with you. If the inspired scripture isn't THE authority, and it takes a back seat to THE "CHURCH" and tradition, then I personally have nothing else to discuss, because we don't even have a common starting point.
Example from above- "The CCC is full of footnotes from the Bible". Now the scriptures are footnotes? Please. My frustration isn't frustration at all. It's sadness about the chains that groups have over people, especially when reading for yourself God's word can remove those chains.
*Here's a thought. Mike began searching because his preachers all preached something different. He went into catholicism, and it seemed attractive because the same thing was taught uniformly throughout the world at the same time. KEY-all the same. Many don't want or desire diversity in belief or opinion or practice. Many prefer law, a code, uniformity. There's familiarity, comfort, and safety under the "schoolmaster" so to speak.
The Bible dies not take a backseat.

The Magisterium, the Holy Bible, and Holy Tradition all make up the Universal Church.

Remember Jesus started a Church which is pillAr of truth.
Mike Peterson

Sumrall, MS

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#35
May 25, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That is an un-biblical but clever way of saying that the true church is catholic and that tradition is valued higher than inspired scripture. I think you have alienated yourself from this group. What do you think Randy?
Why are the scriptures you read inspired. The bible does not say what scriptures belong in the Bible.

Who wrote the book of Mark and how do you know?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#36
May 25, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are the scriptures you read inspired. The bible does not say what scriptures belong in the Bible.
Who wrote the book of Mark and how do you know?
Look, if the rcc had stayed true to the the bible they canonized we would not be having this discussion.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#37
May 25, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Look, if the rcc had stayed true to the the bible they canonized we would not be having this discussion.


Bobby I impressed, you had the courage to admit, like I had to a long time ago, the Catholic Church owns the bible.

The visible Magisterium of the Church got together, and with the Holy Spirit leading them, and decided what the inspired and inerrant word of God was. It was not a democratic vote of all Christians. They had the Authority given to them by Jesus to do that. Whoever listens to my Church hears me.

The CC believes the same thing about what is in the Bible as it did in 382 AD.

Show me instance where the Church teaches something different. It might agree with your interpretation, but it has taught the same thing for 2000 years.

Show me any writing by any man before 1500 that supports what you are taught in your church about salvation.

Now we get to part where you say yes, but the protesters corrected the corrupt church and put it back in the right direction.

If you believe that, then Jesus failed.

If you believe that Father Luther was right, you should be a Lutheran. Father Luther invented SS only for him. He said you could only be Lutheran to get to heaven.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#38
May 25, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby I impressed, you had the courage to admit, like I had to a long time ago, the Catholic Church owns the bible.
The visible Magisterium of the Church got together, and with the Holy Spirit leading them, and decided what the inspired and inerrant word of God was. It was not a democratic vote of all Christians. They had the Authority given to them by Jesus to do that. Whoever listens to my Church hears me.
The CC believes the same thing about what is in the Bible as it did in 382 AD.
Show me instance where the Church teaches something different. It might agree with your interpretation, but it has taught the same thing for 2000 years.
Show me any writing by any man before 1500 that supports what you are taught in your church about salvation.
Now we get to part where you say yes, but the protesters corrected the corrupt church and put it back in the right direction.
If you believe that, then Jesus failed.
If you believe that Father Luther was right, you should be a Lutheran. Father Luther invented SS only for him. He said you could only be Lutheran to get to heaven.
I have not admitted that the rcc owns the bible!

Here is the test that you need to take.

Why do you believe in the rcc doctrines when their doctrines are not found in the bible?

See if you can find scripture for praying to Mary, praying to the saints, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant,or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

I already know that you cannot find it-just do it I can wait but I already hear the silence. We are not that dumb Mike. Everyone here probably knows the scripture better than you do. You need us more than we do you.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#39
May 25, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not admitted that the rcc owns the bible!
Here is the test that you need to take.
Why do you believe in the rcc doctrines when their doctrines are not found in the bible?
See if you can find scripture for praying to Mary, praying to the saints, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant,or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
I already know that you cannot find it-just do it I can wait but I already hear the silence. We are not that dumb Mike. Everyone here probably knows the scripture better than you do. You need us more than we do you.
Here will be your answer to these. That is not what the verse means.

Apostolic Succession.

Acts 1:21-26, where you'll see the apostles, immediately after Jesus' Ascension, acting to replace the position left vacant by Judas's suicide.

They prayed for guidance, asking God to show them which candidate was "chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away." After choosing Matthias they laid hands on him to confer apostolic authority.

Look at 1 Timothy 1:6 and 4:14, where Paul reminds Timothy that the office of bishop had been conferred on him through the laying on of hands. Notice in 1 Timothy 5:22 that Paul advises Timothy not to be hasty in handing on this authority to others. In Titus Paul describes the apostolic authority Titus had received and urges him to act decisively in this leadership role.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us. We dont pray to Mary.

First of if you are in heaven you alive. It is called eternal life

Those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

In the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Hebrews 12:22-24

First, notice verse 24. The author of Hebrews also mentions Jesus as the Mediator. But again, as in Paul's letter to Timothy, Christ's mediation is not mentioned in a vacuum. Quite the contrary, verse 23 mentions:
• the angels
• the general assembly
• the church registered in heaven, and
•the "spirits of just men made perfect"
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#40
May 25, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not admitted that the rcc owns the bible!
Here is the test that you need to take.
Why do you believe in the rcc doctrines when their doctrines are not found in the bible?
See if you can find scripture for praying to Mary, praying to the saints, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant,or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
I already know that you cannot find it-just do it I can wait but I already hear the silence. We are not that dumb Mike. Everyone here probably knows the scripture better than you do. You need us more than we do you.
Asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us: We don't pray to them.

Mary is a Saint too.

Hebrews 12:22-24

First, notice verse 24. The author of Hebrews also mentions Jesus as the Mediator. But again, as in Paul's letter to Timothy, Christ's mediation is not mentioned in a vacuum. Quite the contrary, verse 23 mentions:
• the angels
• the general assembly
• the church registered in heaven, and
•the "spirits of just men made perfect"

Then finally, Jesus the Mediator is referenced in verse 24.

The inspired author is telling us that the unity of the Mystical Body of Christ is organic and inseparable. Death has no power of this unity, just as death had no power over Christ Himself.

The Second Book of Maccabees records a [vision/dream] experienced by Judas Maccabeus. In this vision, Judas sees the High Priest Onias and the Prophet Jeremiah (both of whom were dead and buried) interceding on behalf of Israel.

Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Jesus first Miracle at Cana. Mary intercedes for the bride and groom and prays(asks) Jesus for help. His ministry had not started yet. But Jesus listens to her mother and performs the miracle and starts his ministry.

Is Mary alive in Heaven.?

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