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Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#1 Jan 9, 2013
The Bible is ‘silent’ regarding ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that musical instruments are wrong; therefore ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that says "musical instruments are wrong" must be prohibited if this so-called law of silence stands. The Bible is ‘silent’ on the fact that silence is prohibitive. The "silence hermeneutic" is self-refuting. Any argument from the ‘Law of Silence’ refutes itself because the Bible is SILENT regarding the "silence hermeneutic."

Invitation songs, song leaders, two services on Sunday and one on Wednesday, business meetings, preaching schools and other standbys aren't clearly authorized either (The Bible is silent on these) but as far as I can see the church of Christ isn't ceasing with those. I guess the Law of Silence only applies when its convenient.

A typical reply to what I just said will be: "What about adding pizza and coke to the Lord's Supper? They then will ask,“is there any New Testament command that directly forbids such? Then, why would it be wrong to add pizza and Coke to the Lord’s Supper?"

This is quite simple, actually. The bread and wine have ‘specific’ associations with the body and blood of Christ; Pizza and Coke would have no link at all.

Oh, let’s not forget this one:“What about Gopher wood and the ark”, some will ask. God specified Gopher wood they will say and thus His silence demands only Gopher wood. God obviously specified Gopher wood for some particular reason - perhaps it was plentiful and solid enough to build an Ark.

I know, I know –“the Bible says SING thus God specified SINGING.” Yes, SINGING is specified and let’s not forget about SINGING THE PSALMS which clearly at that time would have been understood to have musical aids. Furthermore, the word SING doesn’t mean SING ‘ONLY’ no more than the word ‘FAITH’ means FAITH ‘ONLY.’

If I ask someone to SING me a song and they played the Piano while SINGING, the command to SING me a song still occurs. If I ask,“did you hear that person on the radio SINGING”, does this mean they were SINGING without any musical aids? No, it doesn’t. In fact, most of the time, it means musical aids were accompanying the SINGING. It’s no need to say,“did you hear that person SINGING and hear their music too?” Even on Billboard signs you will read: SINGING tonight at 7pm. Does this mean ONLY singing with no musical aids? The fact is, the word SING does not mean SING ‘ONLY.’ To argue from silence or specificity simply will not suffice because the word SING doesn’t exclude musical aids. It can mean with or without musical accompaniment.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#2 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
The Bible is ‘silent’ regarding ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that musical instruments are wrong; therefore ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that says "musical instruments are wrong" must be prohibited if this so-called law of silence stands. The Bible is ‘silent’ on the fact that silence is prohibitive. The "silence hermeneutic" is self-refuting. Any argument from the ‘Law of Silence’ refutes itself because the Bible is SILENT regarding the "silence hermeneutic."
Invitation songs, song leaders, two services on Sunday and one on Wednesday, business meetings, preaching schools and other standbys aren't clearly authorized either (The Bible is silent on these) but as far as I can see the church of Christ isn't ceasing with those. I guess the Law of Silence only applies when its convenient.
A typical reply to what I just said will be: "What about adding pizza and coke to the Lord's Supper? They then will ask,“is there any New Testament command that directly forbids such? Then, why would it be wrong to add pizza and Coke to the Lord’s Supper?"
This is quite simple, actually. The bread and wine have ‘specific’ associations with the body and blood of Christ; Pizza and Coke would have no link at all.
Oh, let’s not forget this one:“What about Gopher wood and the ark”, some will ask. God specified Gopher wood they will say and thus His silence demands only Gopher wood. God obviously specified Gopher wood for some particular reason - perhaps it was plentiful and solid enough to build an Ark.
I know, I know –“the Bible says SING thus God specified SINGING.” Yes, SINGING is specified and let’s not forget about SINGING THE PSALMS which clearly at that time would have been understood to have musical aids. Furthermore, the word SING doesn’t mean SING ‘ONLY’ no more than the word ‘FAITH’ means FAITH ‘ONLY.’
If I ask someone to SING me a song and they played the Piano while SINGING, the command to SING me a song still occurs. If I ask,“did you hear that person on the radio SINGING”, does this mean they were SINGING without any musical aids? No, it doesn’t. In fact, most of the time, it means musical aids were accompanying the SINGING. It’s no need to say,“did you hear that person SINGING and hear their music too?” Even on Billboard signs you will read: SINGING tonight at 7pm. Does this mean ONLY singing with no musical aids? The fact is, the word SING does not mean SING ‘ONLY.’ To argue from silence or specificity simply will not suffice because the word SING doesn’t exclude musical aids. It can mean with or without musical accompaniment.
Randy, I understand where you are coming from, but are you aware that this stuff is not even brought up in most churches, it is the product of legalism. There is no peace, comfort or joy found in legalistic churches. You will however find a power structure designed to condemn others while trying to make themselves better than others.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#3 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
The Bible is ‘silent’ regarding ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that musical instruments are wrong; therefore ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that says "musical instruments are wrong" must be prohibited if this so-called law of silence stands. The Bible is ‘silent’ on the fact that silence is prohibitive. The "silence hermeneutic" is self-refuting. Any argument from the ‘Law of Silence’ refutes itself because the Bible is SILENT regarding the "silence hermeneutic."
Invitation songs, song leaders, two services on Sunday and one on Wednesday, business meetings, preaching schools and other standbys aren't clearly authorized either (The Bible is silent on these) but as far as I can see the church of Christ isn't ceasing with those. I guess the Law of Silence only applies when its convenient.
A typical reply to what I just said will be: "What about adding pizza and coke to the Lord's Supper? They then will ask,“is there any New Testament command that directly forbids such? Then, why would it be wrong to add pizza and Coke to the Lord’s Supper?"
This is quite simple, actually. The bread and wine have ‘specific’ associations with the body and blood of Christ; Pizza and Coke would have no link at all.
Oh, let’s not forget this one:“What about Gopher wood and the ark”, some will ask. God specified Gopher wood they will say and thus His silence demands only Gopher wood. God obviously specified Gopher wood for some particular reason - perhaps it was plentiful and solid enough to build an Ark.
I know, I know –“the Bible says SING thus God specified SINGING.” Yes, SINGING is specified and let’s not forget about SINGING THE PSALMS which clearly at that time would have been understood to have musical aids. Furthermore, the word SING doesn’t mean SING ‘ONLY’ no more than the word ‘FAITH’ means FAITH ‘ONLY.’
If I ask someone to SING me a song and they played the Piano while SINGING, the command to SING me a song still occurs. If I ask,“did you hear that person on the radio SINGING”, does this mean they were SINGING without any musical aids? No, it doesn’t. In fact, most of the time, it means musical aids were accompanying the SINGING. It’s no need to say,“did you hear that person SINGING and hear their music too?” Even on Billboard signs you will read: SINGING tonight at 7pm. Does this mean ONLY singing with no musical aids? The fact is, the word SING does not mean SING ‘ONLY.’ To argue from silence or specificity simply will not suffice because the word SING doesn’t exclude musical aids. It can mean with or without musical accompaniment.
The biggest challenge you have that you will fall short on is why were the Apostles that were inspired by the Holy Spirit not using the instrument? Just find where one of them was doing so in worship. Now comes the music from Jeopardy dun dun dun dundun dun dun duh.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#4 Jan 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
The biggest challenge you have that you will fall short on is why were the Apostles that were inspired by the Holy Spirit not using the instrument? Just find where one of them was doing so in worship. Now comes the music from Jeopardy dun dun dun dundun dun dun duh.
I bet I can find that next to the scripture where they sang the invitation song, served welches on silver platters. Lol. Again, silence is foundation for your position and that’s just weak, at best. Paul said they were to sing Psalms. At that time, they knew Psalms cold be sang with musical aids because that was their practice. God approved of this and you cannot show where He lifted His approval. I’m waiting on you to show me this. Point me to the verse where God changed His mind.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#5 Jan 9, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy, I understand where you are coming from, but are you aware that this stuff is not even brought up in most churches, it is the product of legalism. There is no peace, comfort or joy found in legalistic churches. You will however find a power structure designed to condemn others while trying to make themselves better than others.
Yes, I agree. Most churches do not know what I’m talking about. This stuff is often only heard in churches who debate other churches. The Presbyterians and many Calvinist types are well schooled on this as are many Baptist and the church of Christ. Even words like ‘hermeneutics’ and ‘apologetics’ would fly over most Church goers heads. The Law of Silence, general and direct authority, regulative and normative principle, and things like this are rarely discussed in most Churches.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#6 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet I can find that next to the scripture where they sang the invitation song, served welches on silver platters. Lol. Again, silence is foundation for your position and that’s just weak, at best. Paul said they were to sing Psalms. At that time, they knew Psalms cold be sang with musical aids because that was their practice. God approved of this and you cannot show where He lifted His approval. I’m waiting on you to show me this. Point me to the verse where God changed His mind.
lol bring up invitation song as to compare to whether the apostles worship with the instrument. Great argument.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#7 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet I can find that next to the scripture where they sang the invitation song, served welches on silver platters. Lol. Again, silence is foundation for your position and that’s just weak, at best. Paul said they were to sing Psalms. At that time, they knew Psalms cold be sang with musical aids because that was their practice. God approved of this and you cannot show where He lifted His approval. I’m waiting on you to show me this. Point me to the verse where God changed His mind.
The challenge lies with you since I am worshiping as the apostles did.:)

When you find the apostle that worship with music let me know.

And dont tell me historical writers were wrong.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#8 Jan 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
The challenge lies with you since I am worshiping as the apostles did.:)
When you find the apostle that worship with music let me know.
And dont tell me historical writers were wrong.
Again, are you going to side with YOUR historical writers on every issue? And, how many of those historical writers are from the church of Christ? Still waiting for you to show where God changed His mind.
New Guy

Lexington, KY

#9 Jan 9, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy, I understand where you are coming from, but are you aware that this stuff is not even brought up in most churches, it is the product of legalism. There is no peace, comfort or joy found in legalistic churches. You will however find a power structure designed to condemn others while trying to make themselves better than others.
Somebody slap me. Agreeing with Bobby again.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#10 Jan 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
lol bring up invitation song as to compare to whether the apostles worship with the instrument. Great argument.
Not an argument. Just a point from silience ;-) Show me where you have approval for the invitation song? Did Peter do this when Peter were commanded to repent and be baptized? Nope. I'm not saying its wrong. I'm merely taking your 'Great argument' about music and showing you how silly it is.
New Guy

Lexington, KY

#11 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet I can find that next to the scripture where they sang the invitation song, served welches on silver platters. Lol. Again, silence is foundation for your position and that’s just weak, at best. Paul said they were to sing Psalms. At that time, they knew Psalms cold be sang with musical aids because that was their practice. God approved of this and you cannot show where He lifted His approval. I’m waiting on you to show me this. Point me to the verse where God changed His mind.
Randy "we" don't care about invitation songs, silver platters for communion, Sunday school, hymn books, one cup or multiple cups, pews or even church buildings. Instruments are the only thing "we" care about whether or not there's authority for it. Ok, maybe a kitchen or fellowship hall once in a while. I understand why Bobby tires of premillenial discussions. This issue does the same to me. Nothing more than a division in the body of Christ. Satan is happy.

Since: Dec 12

Royse City, TX

#12 Jan 9, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Randy "we" don't care about invitation songs, silver platters for communion, Sunday school, hymn books, one cup or multiple cups, pews or even church buildings. Instruments are the only thing "we" care about whether or not there's authority for it. Ok, maybe a kitchen or fellowship hall once in a while. I understand why Bobby tires of premillenial discussions. This issue does the same to me. Nothing more than a division in the body of Christ. Satan is happy.
I agree. I don't think it should be an issue that results in division either - sadly however, many brethern in the church of Christ pick this over other non-issues.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#13 Jan 9, 2013
Yeah, how is it they imagine pertended non instrumentals and then some exclude half the promise of God that is clear and given for all today?

Great opening post Randy:-)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#14 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, are you going to side with YOUR historical writers on every issue? And, how many of those historical writers are from the church of Christ? Still waiting for you to show where God changed His mind.
My Historical writers? Not sure I understand that comment unless you have some historical writers that say the music in the first century church was with the instrument if so just show them. It no big deal either you do or you dont.

Did or did not the Apostle worship with the instrument?
Larry

Axton, VA

#15 Jan 9, 2013
_Randy_ wrote:
The Bible is ‘silent’ regarding ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that musical instruments are wrong; therefore ‘THE PROPOSITION’ that says "musical instruments are wrong" must be prohibited if this so-called law of silence stands. The Bible is ‘silent’ on the fact that silence is prohibitive. The "silence hermeneutic" is self-refuting. Any argument from the ‘Law of Silence’ refutes itself because the Bible is SILENT regarding the "silence hermeneutic."
Invitation songs, song leaders, two services on Sunday and one on Wednesday, business meetings, preaching schools and other standbys aren't clearly authorized either (The Bible is silent on these) but as far as I can see the church of Christ isn't ceasing with those. I guess the Law of Silence only applies when its convenient.
A typical reply to what I just said will be: "What about adding pizza and coke to the Lord's Supper? They then will ask,“is there any New Testament command that directly forbids such? Then, why would it be wrong to add pizza and Coke to the Lord’s Supper?"
This is quite simple, actually. The bread and wine have ‘specific’ associations with the body and blood of Christ; Pizza and Coke would have no link at all.
Oh, let’s not forget this one:“What about Gopher wood and the ark”, some will ask. God specified Gopher wood they will say and thus His silence demands only Gopher wood. God obviously specified Gopher wood for some particular reason - perhaps it was plentiful and solid enough to build an Ark.
I know, I know –“the Bible says SING thus God specified SINGING.” Yes, SINGING is specified and let’s not forget about SINGING THE PSALMS which clearly at that time would have been understood to have musical aids. Furthermore, the word SING doesn’t mean SING ‘ONLY’ no more than the word ‘FAITH’ means FAITH ‘ONLY.’
If I ask someone to SING me a song and they played the Piano while SINGING, the command to SING me a song still occurs. If I ask,“did you hear that person on the radio SINGING”, does this mean they were SINGING without any musical aids? No, it doesn’t. In fact, most of the time, it means musical aids were accompanying the SINGING. It’s no need to say,“did you hear that person SINGING and hear their music too?” Even on Billboard signs you will read: SINGING tonight at 7pm. Does this mean ONLY singing with no musical aids? The fact is, the word SING does not mean SING ‘ONLY.’ To argue from silence or specificity simply will not suffice because the word SING doesn’t exclude musical aids. It can mean with or without musical accompaniment.
Does your God want us to suffer in hell? If so, then he is a sadist, a monster who takes pleasure in the suffering of others, but your Bible says he doesn't take pleasure in such suffering.(Ezekiel 18:24) And if it is the case that God hates it when the wicked suffer, then why has he constructed it so that the wicked suffer eternally? It makes not a lick of sense.

Your God is a hypocrite. He tells us to always love those who hate us because if we love only those who love us, we are no better than sinners who do the same (Luke 6:38), but God doesn't practice what he preaches; his enduring love abides only to those who love him and will receive his invitation to come to the wedding feast of heaven. But once the rest of us (the unsaved) die, his love for us is extinguished, as is his mercy. He lets us exist in hell only for the purpose of suffering, but with no hope of redemption, with nothing to look forward to ever again.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#16 Jan 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>My Historical writers? Not sure I understand that comment unless you have some historical writers that say the music in the first century church was with the instrument if so just show them. It no big deal either you do or you dont.
Did or did not the Apostle worship with the instrument?
Even among Jews, some use instruments and others forbid it.

Where did God say it was only one or only the other?:-)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 Jan 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Even among Jews, some use instruments and others forbid it.
Where did God say it was only one or only the other?:-)
I would say that when Christ was shown as the one to listen to at the transfiguration, being a Jew those watching now started to come to a knowledge that Christ words now was the authority. Not Moses, Not Elijah But Christ. That being said Christ still gave the Holy Spirit to bring to a rememberance all that Christ had taught and would teach to the Apostles that then they wrote the revealed and completed truth. The Old law faded and the New covenant came into being which brought a new worship for the christian (History is clear on this) Jewish people that did not convert remained following the old law and tradition yet the New Law and worship was now determined by the Truth given through the apostles. That being said not once in the NT is authority given to play the instrument. The New Testament mentions instruments (12 times) and never as acts of praise to God, although it was listed several times in the OT as praise to God. Just because some Jews used it and others didnt makes no difference. It really boils down to a question of whose Authority you follow the Old Law or Christ.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#18 Jan 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I would say that when Christ was shown as the one to listen to at the transfiguration, being a Jew those watching now started to come to a knowledge that Christ words now was the authority. Not Moses, Not Elijah But Christ. That being said Christ still gave the Holy Spirit to bring to a rememberance all that Christ had taught and would teach to the Apostles that then they wrote the revealed and completed truth. The Old law faded and the New covenant came into being which brought a new worship for the christian (History is clear on this) Jewish people that did not convert remained following the old law and tradition yet the New Law and worship was now determined by the Truth given through the apostles. That being said not once in the NT is authority given to play the instrument. The New Testament mentions instruments (12 times) and never as acts of praise to God, although it was listed several times in the OT as praise to God. Just because some Jews used it and others didnt makes no difference. It really boils down to a question of whose Authority you follow the Old Law or Christ.
There is no commandment to wipe your butt either, nut I bet you do.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#19 Jan 10, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no commandment to wipe your butt either, nut I bet you do.
Im not sure I understand your attempt at something here. We are taught by authority of parents to cleanse ourselves.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#20 Jan 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Im not sure I understand your attempt at something here. We are taught by authority of parents to cleanse ourselves.
Let me see if I can get this right. There is no command for pews, songbooks, kitchens, water fountains or toilets. Sometimes all we need is some good common sense.

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