Alexander Campbell, Rebaptism & Secta...

Alexander Campbell, Rebaptism & Sectarianism

Posted in the Martinsville Forum

Since: Jul 11

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#1 Feb 15, 2013
Interesting post from Bobby -

http://speakwherethebiblespeaks.wordpress.com...
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#2 Feb 15, 2013
“If we make baptism depend upon what man understands about it, its purposes and meaning, he will never know when he is baptized. It has been told of Dr. John Thomas, who when he started out to be baptized that when he learned a new truth about the purposes of baptism, that he was baptized over twenty times... but what we understand of the purpose of baptism is not the proper ground for being baptized. But the ground is, God has required it as an act of fealty to him, and we do it to obey him; and when we do this, we enter into him, that in him we may enjoy all the blessings and favors he gives”[14].

In a day or so I play on posting a few thoughts on how and where Walter Scott fits into all of this …
"

I'll have to disagree, for Scriptural reasons.

The rocords say understanding is important, as is the reason, as is the work of God in the process of our salvation, as is the work of God the source of the call to eternal life and life in and through the Son.

Repeatedly people we told 'what they must do to be saved', and the core revelation is the sermon of Peter at Pentecost. His words convicted the hearts of those who were saved. His words turned them from lives of initquity to lives that were rightfully spent to turn back to do the will of God as taught by His Son, in complete fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets and Psalms.

The only 'man' we need to really pay attention to is the Son of Man, and as Campbell, Stone, Lipscomb, or others agree with the truth - what matters is the truth - not debate skills akin to a lawyer who makes wrong seem right.

Those in the NT days had to be told what to do to be saved - and immersion had certain purpose - if we believe the Holy Spirit inspired true words from Peters mouth, only about ten days from when the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#3 Feb 15, 2013
Telling the truth, hearing the truth - both matter.

Such example to note is those who had not heard of the Spirit didn't receive it or even know about it - furhter action was required to make them whole.

Was the gospel according to Paul the 'this gospel' that Jesus said would be preached to the whole world? I don't think so.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#4 Feb 15, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Telling the truth, hearing the truth - both matter.
Such example to note is those who had not heard of the Spirit didn't receive it or even know about it - furhter action was required to make them whole.
Was the gospel according to Paul the 'this gospel' that Jesus said would be preached to the whole world? I don't think so.
The scripture clearly describes Jesus as the gospel not water baptism. If water baptism is the gospel then we could say that water baptism is the savior. Or that the gospel is both water baptism and Jesus-thus having two saviors. The scripture clearly does not teach that. Jesus alone is the Savior! The only way that water baptism can save is by becoming the savior.

Or we could take another route and say that water baptism was given a special power by Jesus that when obeyed with special understanding imparts life. I describe this as obedience regeneration which places the power of salvation in the hands of men. This sounds more like what Barnsweb is saying.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#5 Feb 15, 2013
As I was thinking about Pauls words concerning the teaching of another gospel, it seems to fit this discussion "of ascribing to water baptism the power of salvation and/or ascribing the power of the gospel to men".
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#6 Feb 15, 2013
This is the gospel of your salvation:

Eph 1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Jesus being the living word is both Lord and Savior!
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#7 Feb 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The scripture clearly describes Jesus as the gospel not water baptism. If water baptism is the gospel then we could say that water baptism is the savior. Or that the gospel is both water baptism and Jesus-thus having two saviors. The scripture clearly does not teach that. Jesus alone is the Savior! The only way that water baptism can save is by becoming the savior.
Or we could take another route and say that water baptism was given a special power by Jesus that when obeyed with special understanding imparts life. I describe this as obedience regeneration which places the power of salvation in the hands of men. This sounds more like what Barnsweb is saying.
Water immersion into His name is in the center of it, but before is discipleship to Jesus and afterwards is abiding in His word, so immersion is not the end, it is a vital link between coming to the Lord and then maturing and living as He directed to... I never said baptism is the end or sum of the whole. It's about learning of Him and belief that what He said is true and needful to do - being a hearer and doer of His word in our lives - being a light and salt on the earth until His return.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#8 Feb 15, 2013
What did John the baptist say in John 3 about Jesus Christ and how we should consider Him?

What did Moses prophecy?(Acts 3:22,23)

Did either agree that the gospel is merely the death, buriel and resurrection of Jesus? If that's all it is you had just as well totally ignore any teaching of Jesus - but that isn't what He taught, and is not what Paul was trying to say in the original letter that said this saying. But if Jesus didn't fulfill the Scriptures there isn't much reason to listen to what He taught - is there?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#9 Feb 15, 2013
Yes, He is Lord and Savior, Redeemer and King, Brother and Friend, the Word incarnate and the best way God could tell us about what is good in His eyes.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#10 Feb 15, 2013
That the King of Glory thought of us with such love, mercy and grace cannot be denied, and must certainly be at the very core of the gospel of God.

Bobby, I know you don't deny this, and I hope you know that I don't either.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/MBDwpLLXMTA
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#11 Feb 15, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
What did John the baptist say in John 3 about Jesus Christ and how we should consider Him?
What did Moses prophecy?(Acts 3:22,23)
Did either agree that the gospel is merely the death, buriel and resurrection of Jesus? If that's all it is you had just as well totally ignore any teaching of Jesus - but that isn't what He taught, and is not what Paul was trying to say in the original letter that said this saying. But if Jesus didn't fulfill the Scriptures there isn't much reason to listen to what He taught - is there?
The gospel is plainly the description of the cross, without which Jesus could not be our savior. The power of our salvation is in his death burial and most importantly his resurrection where he came back to life-death could not hold him. This was for the purpose of redeeming those who are/were lost until our sin debt was paid. Jesus being the second Adam earned the right to be both our brother and our king.

No cross and no resurrection=no power to save. We should do what we can to live faithfully for Christ but we have been released from the chains of the Law.

7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I know up front you are not going to like this because of you dislike for Paul and your doctrinal positions which need the support of law keeping. We have been set free from the law of sin and death.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#12 Feb 15, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
That the King of Glory thought of us with such love, mercy and grace cannot be denied, and must certainly be at the very core of the gospel of God.
Bobby, I know you don't deny this, and I hope you know that I don't either.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/MBDwpLLXMTA
Beautiful song and a great description of the grace of God-I love it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#13 Feb 15, 2013
Love is the greatest, but it needs to be married to the truth Jesus taught... that we be hearers and doers - because we love Him, not because of the letter of the law, but the spirit of life within everything He said.

It isn't the letter of the law, it is the spirit and truth of the goodness God has told us to believe and do as we have opportunity. I don't look at His doctrines as letters Law - do you?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#14 Feb 15, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Love is the greatest, but it needs to be married to the truth Jesus taught... that we be hearers and doers - because we love Him, not because of the letter of the law, but the spirit of life within everything He said.
It isn't the letter of the law, it is the spirit and truth of the goodness God has told us to believe and do as we have opportunity. I don't look at His doctrines as letters Law - do you?
We have spent so much time opposing each other, I think it makes us a bit gun shy, to the point we are afraid to agree with the other. So, I am somewhat reluctant to say this but I think I agree with your message above.

I think we all need some sort of ministry to be involved in. That can be in our neighborhood, our church, where we work, where we shop, etc.

For instance I live near a walmart and shop there at least 3 times a week. I make it a point to get to know the people who work there and ask them how they are doing, how they like their job and sometimes ask them if they have anything they need prayer for. It is amazing how much this helps open up deeper conversation.

We need to surround ourselves with other Christians like we do in our home group. If any of us need help we always have a brother or sister nearby. We stay connected on email and we have a meal together at least every two weeks. We seek places/people in our community where we can serve others together. Every year we prepare christmas boxes for children around the world. We sometimes work in soup kitchens or nursing homes or the local pregnancy centers. We even have a lot of people involved in working with the local schools-I personally am not involved in that but many do. My wife works in the children's nursery and I have been known to help her.

My point is that I believe we are called to serve others with what we can do, this is loving and serving others. It's like the good Samaritan who did not pass by on the other side, but he did what he could with the resources God had given him.

As for the the great commission, it is obvious we cannot all go into other nations with the gospel. So if we can't go we should be willing to send others who can. Our church is a very mission minded church.

I believe we should live the gospel so that others will see Jesus living in us. This is the most difficult part for me because I see my own weakness and feel so inadequate at times. So, what I think I am trying to say is that we may be the only way some may ever see or hear the living gospel. Doctrine is important but not so much when we fail to meet people at that critical point in their lives.

If you want to pray for me, pray that I might overcome my weaknesses and that God would empower me to seek and serve those who need Jesus in their lives. I want others to see Jesus living in me!
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#15 Feb 16, 2013
Yes. I've seen your heart through what you've said over time and can tell that you do what the Lord, through His Spirit, leads you do do, as you've noted above. Each of us is unique, and He has prepared work for each of us to do. So mine is to point out what Y'shua said is the doctrine of God, in hope that people might consider, that they also pay attention to those things - as He said they are important. The local Church here is also very active in collecting food and clothes for those in need, and helping meet the needs of others is really a blessing to both the giver and the receiver - and when God gets the glory - it's all that much better:-)

You can pray for me anytime too:-) I'm likely no stronger than you, but we must arise and walk in the light of His word and life. Believe it or not, I do find the web site thing to be fufilling, but somewhat difficult to consider, being the subject matter so important. In a way, I'm getting out to the world with His words of life, as over a thousand visit per month from around the world. There are visitors from every continent and nearly every country on earth, and I do get a little feedback and some web sites have linked to mine because they see it as a good resource for others.

We may not agree in all things, but I hope that we can both grow closer to the Lord each day, with the hope of spending eternity together with Him after our sojourn here is done.

'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' And we both believe He is the true bread that came down from heaven that we might have life and the power to become sons of God:-) If God upholds His word higher than His name, shouldn't we also consider this important?:-) Of course we should.

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