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New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#41 Jan 17, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
<quoted text>
If one must be 100% right in doctrine and practice before they are saved, then when is the exact date when “we” reached that “restoration” stage? Was it in 1860? 1890? 1930? 1950? 2010? When?
What if we have been wrong on a number of things and because of our “misunderstanding” have taught and practiced error for several generations? What if we have been wrong about the subject of “grace” during all those past generations? Will grace cover us, as it covered the misunderstandings of the Jerusalem church for a generation?
Is it okay to have some error after we are saved but none at all before we are saved? I contend if one be baptized, no matter what he understands, he is my brother. He has done as God ask. If God will overlook ignorance after we have been saved, why will he not before we are saved?
Because the word says that God no longer winks at ignorance but commands all men everywhere to repent. BTW, I'm with you on the restoration thing. Jesus said the gates of help shall not prevail against the church. It never needed to be restored, its always been here. And who said 100 % accurate? Not me.

By the way, the Jerusalem church did not have the completed revelation about the gentiles until after the events of Cornelius. After that, the issue of circumcision came up before the Jerusalem council. Yes, some did believe that circumcision was necessary before the council. But how about after? Do you think that the doctrine they held was to be tolerated afterward? Could they still personally teach circumcision and law keeping as necessary for salvation, and be in good standing with God after they received that knowledge?

You seem to be saying that God will accept our baptism no matter what we believe about it. Maybe we really should be baptismal regenerationists then. If it doesn't matter WHAT we believe, it then doesn't matter IF we believe.
Full Circle

Axton, VA

#42 Jan 17, 2013
Let me be clear I understand you. You are saying that the only way one can be saved is if he understands that baptism is unto forgiveness. Any failure in this regard will result in damnation? Yes, it matters IF we believe. I thought I was clear on that. If one believes the good news and is baptized, yet lacks the revelation that baptism is unto forgiveness of sins, I believe such a one will be saved.
Full Circle

Axton, VA

#43 Jan 17, 2013
In essence, what you are saying, is that salvation hinges upon ones understanding of baptism. No matter that he repented and was baptized, he must know fully the doctrine of baptism before God will shine His mercy on his soul? For if one is baptized lacking an understanding that baptism is unto forgiveness of sins, he will face eternal hell, no matter if he submitted to immersion as one who wishes to follow the ensample of Christ.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#44 Jan 17, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
Let me be clear I understand you. You are saying that the only way one can be saved is if he understands that baptism is unto forgiveness. Any failure in this regard will result in damnation? Yes, it matters IF we believe. I thought I was clear on that. If one believes the good news and is baptized, yet lacks the revelation that baptism is unto forgiveness of sins, I believe such a one will be saved.
That's what was preached in the first century. Why would today be any different? Can I ask- does God have specific purposes for what He has told us, or does He just want us to get the "general idea" of His will? Again, your basic premise is that it doesn't matter what exactly one believes as long as they do believe something. The Bible doesn't teach that. Does the Bible specifically tell us the purposes of baptism? If so, why should it be that hard to understand? Unless one has "professional help" :)
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#45 Jan 17, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
In essence, what you are saying, is that salvation hinges upon ones understanding of baptism. No matter that he repented and was baptized, he must know fully the doctrine of baptism before God will shine His mercy on his soul? For if one is baptized lacking an understanding that baptism is unto forgiveness of sins, he will face eternal hell, no matter if he submitted to immersion as one who wishes to follow the ensample of Christ.
Nowhere are we told to be baptized to follow the example of Christ. He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, begin His ministry, etc. We aren't Christ, and we're not baptized for the same reasons as He was.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#46 Jan 17, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what was preached in the first century. Why would today be any different? Can I ask- does God have specific purposes for what He has told us, or does He just want us to get the "general idea" of His will? Again, your basic premise is that it doesn't matter what exactly one believes as long as they do believe something. The Bible doesn't teach that. Does the Bible specifically tell us the purposes of baptism? If so, why should it be that hard to understand? Unless one has "professional help" :)
What I hear you saying is that after baptismal regeneration occurs, then it is ok to misunderstand other things. In other words one act of obedience triggers regeneration and from there we can make practically any mistake or be in all kinds of error and still be saved.

Now, you must know that the legalist coc will completely disagree with you, while at the same time they actually do the same thing only they will deny that they do. This is at the very root of the restoration issues-why they can never seem to fellowship.

For example, full circle lives in Martinsville and drives 20 miles to Rocky Mount to a different coc. All of the coc's in that area are small.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#47 Jan 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
What I hear you saying is that after baptismal regeneration occurs, then it is ok to misunderstand other things. In other words one act of obedience triggers regeneration and from there we can make practically any mistake or be in all kinds of error and still be saved.
Now, you must know that the legalist coc will completely disagree with you, while at the same time they actually do the same thing only they will deny that they do. This is at the very root of the restoration issues-why they can never seem to fellowship.
For example, full circle lives in Martinsville and drives 20 miles to Rocky Mount to a different coc. All of the coc's in that area are small.
After conversion, we are expected to learn and grow in the faith. Will we make mistakes- yes, and that is what learning, repentance, and forgiveness is for. One act of obedience? Hardly. You know what I believe makes up faith, and one act of obedience isn't it. But do you completely understand everything? No you don't, and neither do I. Should we strive to? Yes. And we need to understand that we can't stay in sin and think we're ok either.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#48 Jan 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
What I hear you saying is that after baptismal regeneration occurs, then it is ok to misunderstand other things. In other words one act of obedience triggers regeneration and from there we can make practically any mistake or be in all kinds of error and still be saved.
Now, you must know that the legalist coc will completely disagree with you, while at the same time they actually do the same thing only they will deny that they do. This is at the very root of the restoration issues-why they can never seem to fellowship.
For example, full circle lives in Martinsville and drives 20 miles to Rocky Mount to a different coc. All of the coc's in that area are small.
Of course they probably won't. Used to that by now. Like I said before, I actually agree with a lot of full circles ideas, bit disagree with others fc has. Again I must ask a question- why does everyone rag on the coc when evry other denom we know does the exact same things? You'he got people in every group that does the same thing.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#49 Jan 17, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course they probably won't. Used to that by now. Like I said before, I actually agree with a lot of full circles ideas, bit disagree with others fc has. Again I must ask a question- why does everyone rag on the coc when evry other denom we know does the exact same things? You'he got people in every group that does the same thing.
I am glad you ask that question. The coc has the tendency to teach and believe they are the only ones saved. You see, our one major difference has to do with you accepting me as a brother even though I have obeyed in water baptism.

Let me show you something, we have a distant family member who is gay. He is a lawyer and has a good way with words. He does not want others to just accept him as a friend but he requires that we believe that his being gay is of God, it's natural. I believe that is a much larger issue than you and I have.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#50 Jan 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am glad you ask that question. The coc has the tendency to teach and believe they are the only ones saved. You see, our one major difference has to do with you accepting me as a brother even though I have obeyed in water baptism.
Let me show you something, we have a distant family member who is gay. He is a lawyer and has a good way with words. He does not want others to just accept him as a friend but he requires that we believe that his being gay is of God, it's natural. I believe that is a much larger issue than you and I have.
As for you and I, our issue isn't about you being baptized. Think I've said before that I don't know why you were baptized or your mind at that point. Only you and God knows. Our issue is what you believe now, and it is at odds with what I believe. Other groups do the same as the coc does that was my main point there.
I would agree that your family member has a big issue there. He is fighting against God, and unfortunately he loses that battle.
I will say this. If what either you or I believe leads others astray, then we're in big trouble. We better make sure we're correct, or we become stumbling blocks. That's serious business.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#51 Jan 18, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
As for you and I, our issue isn't about you being baptized. Think I've said before that I don't know why you were baptized or your mind at that point. Only you and God knows. Our issue is what you believe now, and it is at odds with what I believe. Other groups do the same as the coc does that was my main point there.
I would agree that your family member has a big issue there. He is fighting against God, and unfortunately he loses that battle.
I will say this. If what either you or I believe leads others astray, then we're in big trouble. We better make sure we're correct, or we become stumbling blocks. That's serious business.
Well, there we go, you just proved what you believe. You believe that water baptism saves and that it does not matter that others are obeying the command for water baptism, they must also believe that it saves-if there is no water involved there can be no salvation.

Faith in God + faith in the act of water baptism + preformed correctly + saying the right words over the candidate = salvation-maybe, because we never know for sure.

So what i see you and the coc doing is judging on a salvation level the thoughts and intents of other peoples relationship with God. And, then you wonder why other denominations have a dislike for the coc.

Having said that I still consider you a brother in Christ. However on the other hand we have Randy who believes the same as you do on water baptism who says he is not a christian-should we consider him to be a brother?
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#52 Jan 18, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, there we go, you just proved what you believe. You believe that water baptism saves and that it does not matter that others are obeying the command for water baptism, they must also believe that it saves-if there is no water involved there can be no salvation.
Faith in God + faith in the act of water baptism + preformed correctly + saying the right words over the candidate = salvation-maybe, because we never know for sure.
So what i see you and the coc doing is judging on a salvation level the thoughts and intents of other peoples relationship with God. And, then you wonder why other denominations have a dislike for the coc.
Having said that I still consider you a brother in Christ. However on the other hand we have Randy who believes the same as you do on water baptism who says he is not a christian-should we consider him to be a brother?
Sorry, but when Jesus said that those who believe and are baptized would be saved, and Peter preached baptism for forgiveness of sin, and Paul said the same thing, I take them at their word. What they said goes, not what any of us necessarily believe. If those are the standards for having a relationship with God, and He set those standards, why does anyone get angry when we believe all people need to believe in those standards?

The math problem you presented is our main problem. You say "faith" + anything is wrong. I think the Bible says faith =belief, repentance, baptism. Anything less is not faith.

The real issue is, at what point does one have a relationship with God? At "faith", or at responding in faith due to belief? I say the latter. I know why other demons hate the coc. I asked that with a purpose, because many other groups do the same thing and never get called on the carpet for it. Where's the anger at those Baptists, Pentecostal, and others doing it?

If Randy feels he's not a Christian, then he needs to do something to remedy that. What I think about his status is not important. What God thinks does matter.
Full Circle

Axton, VA

#53 Jan 18, 2013
The first congregation established was not perfect. In fact, by our standards today, it would be an apostate church. Yes, I am speaking about the Jerusalem congregation. Some will excuse it because they were in the process of receiving revelation, in the dark about the Gentiles and so forth, as new guy made the point. Without the full revelation, how could they be a perfect model for us? Yet, in spite of that revelation, they still did not get right what had already been revealed to them. They did not get it right for quite some time. I am not speaking about weeks or months, but years. Year after year. Year after year in spite of being inspired. Year after year in spite of having within their membership the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ.

If it was possible for inspired individuals to misunderstand the inspired instruction they were giving to others, the same can happen today with the uninspired person misunderstanding the inspired word. If the apostles, prophets and Jerusalem church were not condemned for their refusal to obey the word given, then we can see God’s patience, love, and grace imparted upon us in like manner as He bestowed it upon them.

If that is not the case, then all twelve apostles, all inspired prophets, teachers, elders, deacons, and members of the Jewish churches were apostate, lost, condemned, and guilty of refusing to follow the pattern of sound words for 9 to 11 years over the Gentile question. Since they were not following the pattern, they could not, in the thinking of brethren in their applications today, be the true New Testament church. Either those brethren are right and the Jerusalem church was not the true church of Christ for 9-11 years, or they are themselves wrong and need to wake up to their own error and discover the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ
Full Circle

Axton, VA

#54 Jan 18, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text> The real issue is, at what point does one have a relationship with God? At "faith", or at responding in faith due to belief?
For what purpose were the Ephesians baptized again, according to Paul?“Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed”
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#55 Jan 19, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
The first congregation established was not perfect. In fact, by our standards today, it would be an apostate church. Yes, I am speaking about the Jerusalem congregation. Some will excuse it because they were in the process of receiving revelation, in the dark about the Gentiles and so forth, as new guy made the point. Without the full revelation, how could they be a perfect model for us? Yet, in spite of that revelation, they still did not get right what had already been revealed to them. They did not get it right for quite some time. I am not speaking about weeks or months, but years. Year after year. Year after year in spite of being inspired. Year after year in spite of having within their membership the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ.
If it was possible for inspired individuals to misunderstand the inspired instruction they were giving to others, the same can happen today with the uninspired person misunderstanding the inspired word. If the apostles, prophets and Jerusalem church were not condemned for their refusal to obey the word given, then we can see God’s patience, love, and grace imparted upon us in like manner as He bestowed it upon them.
If that is not the case, then all twelve apostles, all inspired prophets, teachers, elders, deacons, and members of the Jewish churches were apostate, lost, condemned, and guilty of refusing to follow the pattern of sound words for 9 to 11 years over the Gentile question. Since they were not following the pattern, they could not, in the thinking of brethren in their applications today, be the true New Testament church. Either those brethren are right and the Jerusalem church was not the true church of Christ for 9-11 years, or they are themselves wrong and need to wake up to their own error and discover the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ
How did you arrive at this judgment of the Jerusalem Church? What did they do or understand wrongly? Please do show where they rejected the word of God or the word of the Holy Apostles? The record has them meeting together and sharing in great joy and abiding in whatever the Apostles told them. A great many of them were also actual eye-witnesses of Jesus preaching and teaching in the area and in the Synagoges, so it wasn't as though they didn't know what Jesus taught until the Gospels were written - they were there!

The gospel was to the Jews first. How long was it until Peter had his vision about the Gentiles? That was the order of God, and not the Apostles rejecting some element of the truth.

What was the Jerusalem Church deficient in? Do tell...
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#56 Jan 19, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text> The real issue is, at what point does one have a relationship with God? At "faith", or at responding in faith due to belief?....

For what purpose were the Ephesians baptized again, according to Paul?“Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed”

What point does a relationship with God begin? At what point is one adopted into the family of God? At what point of our faith are we 'born from above'?

Jesus said the Spirit would work with the Word to convict and convert - to condemn or bring life - to the resurrection of condemnation, or the resurrection of the just. The word of God will not return to Him void, and I'm sure it was written to cause division among men who take only parts of it, and those who seek the fullness of the will of God as taught by the Son.

We show what we are by what we approve of - and God has told us what is good and acceptable - yet many reject those things and pretend otherwise as they show how ashamed they are of His word that they cannot accept - because they are not of God.

Those of Master YHWH Y'shua hear His voice and respond with faith that loves as He said love for Him will do.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#57 Jan 19, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
How did you arrive at this judgment of the Jerusalem Church? What did they do or understand wrongly? Please do show where they rejected the word of God or the word of the Holy Apostles? The record has them meeting together and sharing in great joy and abiding in whatever the Apostles told them. A great many of them were also actual eye-witnesses of Jesus preaching and teaching in the area and in the Synagoges, so it wasn't as though they didn't know what Jesus taught until the Gospels were written - they were there!
The gospel was to the Jews first. How long was it until Peter had his vision about the Gentiles? That was the order of God, and not the Apostles rejecting some element of the truth.
What was the Jerusalem Church deficient in? Do tell...
Have to agree with you on this. The Jerusalem church was faithful to what they knew from all accounts we have, and they did have the apostles there with them. One must take into account the fact that several years passed before the gentile issue arose, and the church appeared to be compliant for the most part with God's decision.

The point being made really is about ignorance. How much can one be in error and ignorant and be ok. Jesus threatened to take away the lampstand of the Ephesian church unless they repented. He gave the Jewish nation 40 years to come out of the old system before it was destroyed. He gives us a lifetime, however long that is, to do His will. Can we really ever plead ignorance? Will we be able to say "I'm sorry Lord- I didn't know, I was misled" when we stand before Him?
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#58 Jan 19, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text> The real issue is, at what point does one have a relationship with God? At "faith", or at responding in faith due to belief?....
For what purpose were the Ephesians baptized again, according to Paul?“Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed”
What point does a relationship with God begin? At what point is one adopted into the family of God? At what point of our faith are we 'born from above'?
Jesus said the Spirit would work with the Word to convict and convert - to condemn or bring life - to the resurrection of condemnation, or the resurrection of the just. The word of God will not return to Him void, and I'm sure it was written to cause division among men who take only parts of it, and those who seek the fullness of the will of God as taught by the Son.
We show what we are by what we approve of - and God has told us what is good and acceptable - yet many reject those things and pretend otherwise as they show how ashamed they are of His word that they cannot accept - because they are not of God.
Those of Master YHWH Y'shua hear His voice and respond with faith that loves as He said love for Him will do.
Agree.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#59 Jan 19, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Have to agree with you on this. The Jerusalem church was faithful to what they knew from all accounts we have, and they did have the apostles there with them. One must take into account the fact that several years passed before the gentile issue arose, and the church appeared to be compliant for the most part with God's decision.
The point being made really is about ignorance. How much can one be in error and ignorant and be ok. Jesus threatened to take away the lampstand of the Ephesian church unless they repented. He gave the Jewish nation 40 years to come out of the old system before it was destroyed. He gives us a lifetime, however long that is, to do His will. Can we really ever plead ignorance? Will we be able to say "I'm sorry Lord- I didn't know, I was misled" when we stand before Him?
Maybe you haven't gone over this premise before, as noted on the web site below, but he makes several good points to consider. He expressed interest in the AENT, as it largely resolves some of the things said, but those were based from the Greek translations vs the Aramaic, which clears some of the issue up. But then we come back to what Paul told the Ephesians, that the wall seperating Jew and Gentile was abolished - which is not the same thing as the veil to the Holy of Holies being wrent in two. The wall partition in the Temple between Jew and Gentile didn't fall down. So the Apostles were confused by Paul is my take on it, and it's just a historical record for the most part (Acts), but it does contain many important records, such as Acts 1-3.

His point is very interesting to show that Peter and the other apostles didn't say Paul was an apostle in the same sense they were - we only find that record from Paul and Luke, who was Paul's close associate... If Paul taught against any teaching of Jesus Christ, that's where I must take the words of Jesus over the words of Paul. Paul was often guilty of not taking his own advice and doctrine to heart. One is about taking the command to not eat food sacrificed to idols to the point of conscience and denial of the heart of the matter of the Jerusalem Decree to the Gentiles.

The issue was about circumcision, and Paul answers correctly in I Cor. 7:19, but then other places seems to say otherwise. Will the real Paul please stand up?>?:-) We can know the truth that sets us free by abiding in the teachings of Jesus Christ - that much we should know and believe. And therein is the issue.... was Paul mistranslated, or was Paul driven mad by his much learning and trying to incorporate much teaching and thus going beyond or selling short, the Doctrine and Commandments of God?

The only way to know is through abiding in the Word of life, as Paul was too inconsistant - he pretty much incorporated situational ethics to the direct commandments of God. As we can see, at least he was humble enough to sometimes say some things were his own opinion. Peter was right on target with his comments about the teachings of Paul and how some misuse them.

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/index.ht... Mark
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#60 Jan 19, 2013
How much ignorance is allowed?:-) Some will claim prejudice caused their ignorance. Some will claim regard for the faith of their fathers cause the ignorance. God has said the day will be when each will be responsible for their own sin.

Anyone can see that even in the Church of Christ, who likely study the word as deep, or deeper, than other denominations, will stick with what has been approved before and refuse to hear new information. Like we see they are just jumping to adopt the AENT as a reference, even when it solidifies much of their doctrine better than any other translation from Greek.

I gave Wayne Jackson a copy before moving from Ca, but to my knowledge he isn't reading it, or if his is, it may be more with a mind to disprove it? That's on him.

God has said that we are to do as He said, not what our fathers did wrong in following their hearts or perverting true worship and faith as God has given it.

How many actually study their Bible Class lessons? I'm sure only a smidgen of those who do study will take the time to do independent study to ensure what they believe is the truth. I can't really blame them, as it took a lot for me to just lay it all aside and go back to study what Jesus DID teach - and it took some time to realize how important that is.

onediscipletoanother.org

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