5 Acts of Worship: The error of The C...

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#61 Jan 18, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>Where do you get the permission to use multiple cups and even though Jesus used wine you use grape juice. You are not playing with a full deck...
The word "wine" is never used for the Lord's supper in the Bible.

Would you like to try again?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#62 Jan 19, 2013
Well, Heath, that's why you need to include the OT record in your reading. Read about the Passover in the OT - Moses wrote about it:-)
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#63 Jan 19, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Well, Heath, that's why you need to include the OT record in your reading. Read about the Passover in the OT - Moses wrote about it:-)
From what I read in the books of Moses, wine is not connected with the passover at all. Other feasts yes but not passover.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#64 Jan 19, 2013
What meal did Jesus institute the memorial for His blood and body?

Look to more than one accounting....
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#65 Jan 19, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
What meal did Jesus institute the memorial for His blood and body?
Look to more than one accounting....
What I see when I examine the OT Passover regulations is that no wine is mentioned, except that there was a wine offering given on the day of firstfruits, or "Resurrection Day". I see from Edersheim that the mishnah said that "red wine" was to be used. At that point we get into the ideas of fermentation, leaven, and how no leaven was to be found in the house then. He gets into the ideas of the different cups and those factors. He said that the "wine" was mixed with water. Again, two things to remember. One- this is all extra-Biblical oral tradition, andc two, Biblical wine in those days were nowhere near as alcoholic as what we se today. Plus, typologically speaking, for the sinless Savior to shed His blood, but a symbol of that to be tainted with a type of sin, seems unreasonable to me.
Full Circle

Earlysville, VA

#66 Jan 19, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
What I see when I examine the OT Passover regulations is that no wine is mentioned, except that there was a wine offering given on the day of firstfruits, or "Resurrection Day". I see from Edersheim that the mishnah said that "red wine" was to be used. At that point we get into the ideas of fermentation, leaven, and how no leaven was to be found in the house then. He gets into the ideas of the different cups and those factors. He said that the "wine" was mixed with water. Again, two things to remember. One- this is all extra-Biblical oral tradition, andc two, Biblical wine in those days were nowhere near as alcoholic as what we se today. Plus, typologically speaking, for the sinless Savior to shed His blood, but a symbol of that to be tainted with a type of sin, seems unreasonable to me.
The Corinthian church had turned the practice of Communion into a mockery of the Gospel by using The Lordís Supper to partake in drunkeness and favoritism, with little or no focus on Jesus Christ Himself. I would think it would take real wine to accomplish drunkenness.
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#67 Jan 19, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
<quoted text>
The Corinthian church had turned the practice of Communion into a mockery of the Gospel by using The Lordís Supper to partake in drunkeness and favoritism, with little or no focus on Jesus Christ Himself. I would think it would take real wine to accomplish drunkenness.
While that is true, does that prove that they were getting drunk on "sacramental wine"? Or does it simply prove they had access to alcohol there? Reckon its possible they had access to both wine and "the fruit of the vine"?

How about the typological concerns? Would the substance symbolic of His sinless blood have anything in it that symbolized sin?
Full Circle

Earlysville, VA

#68 Jan 19, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
While that is true, does that prove that they were getting drunk on "sacramental wine"? Or does it simply prove they had access to alcohol there? Reckon its possible they had access to both wine and "the fruit of the vine"?
How about the typological concerns? Would the substance symbolic of His sinless blood have anything in it that symbolized sin?
That is true and a point I will not debate. There are other scriptures that suggest real wine was used by Christians. Worth noting too, is that Paul addressed them as Saints, spite them acting up. Yes, he set them straight though. Another thing too, some Church of Christ use real wine, do you consider this a fatal error, a sin unto spiritual death?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#69 Jan 20, 2013
"Real wine"? How deluded can we make ourselves from common sense of reality, rather than obvious facts? The Passover Feast was celebrated in the Spring and grapes are harvested in the fall. They didn't have refrigeration. Grapes harvested in the Fall would have gone through the natural fermentation process - 100% of them that were not processed into rasins:-) The wine at the wedding feast that Jesus created from water - was it rasin juice??:-)

One CoC in Stockton had a gospel meeting that featured 'The Difficult Teachings of Jesus', and the Sunday morning featured speaker told us how Jesus had to turn the water into grape juice instead of alcohol containing wine, as if He turned it into wine, that would have caused those attending the wedding to sin, as getting drunk is a sin, and thereby disqualifying Himself from being perfect and elegible to be our Savior...

Yup, nothing like being so self righteous that you feel free to judge God Himself! Even Job and his friends knew that no man can correct God! But not those closed minded CoCer's!
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#70 Jan 20, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
What I see when I examine the OT Passover regulations is that no wine is mentioned, except that there was a wine offering given on the day of firstfruits, or "Resurrection Day". I see from Edersheim that the mishnah said that "red wine" was to be used. At that point we get into the ideas of fermentation, leaven, and how no leaven was to be found in the house then. He gets into the ideas of the different cups and those factors. He said that the "wine" was mixed with water. Again, two things to remember. One- this is all extra-Biblical oral tradition, andc two, Biblical wine in those days were nowhere near as alcoholic as what we se today. Plus, typologically speaking, for the sinless Savior to shed His blood, but a symbol of that to be tainted with a type of sin, seems unreasonable to me.
OK, maybe I need to repent of the sureness of those CoC sermons:-) I've heard all my life. Doing some follow-up, there was a lot of focus on no leaven, the lamb and it's blood, but the Scriptural support for a command that wine is used seems lacking? Looking at a Kosher site, they even sell cherry wine for passover?

What can I say, but maybe I'm not as right as I thought, but I'll still hold out to trust what the word of God says on the topic:-) Checking some sites for Messianic Christians discuss some for and against wine use for Passover, and also discusses how 'grape juice' could be preserved in ancient times...

I stand corrected!:-)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#71 Jan 20, 2013
Another added note, regarding wine and 'new wine'. The AENT has them accusing the apostles of drinking new wine and getting drunk - so that's another point to question the Greek translations and if we are accepting what 'new wine' is. Seems 'new wine' is 'last years vintage', not grape juice, as grape juice would not have made them drunk....???
Full Circle

Earlysville, VA

#72 Jan 20, 2013
I agree with Barnsweb, Getting drunk is the sin not drinking a mere drink of wine. The wine, however, was much weaker than that of today.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#73 Jan 20, 2013
This has been an interesting weekend. There is this man who is in my church/homegroup who always amazes and encourages me.

He was born in France to American Missionaries who soon moved to Africa to minister there. They returned to America after he became an adult. He has since been involved in missionary work here in the states involved in fairs and rodeos. His health/age has caused him to turn the work over to others.

Friday he had a heart attack and was rushed to the hospital.They did a stint on him to open a blocked artery. While he was there he kept talking about faith in God. His surgeon told him "you need to thank me for saving your life". He said "I do-I thank God that you were available to help me".

I found from others at the Hospital that he was praying for some of the staff there. Everyone was so amazed at how he cares for others while his own life is on the line. This is the kind of faith we all need. I prayed for him while we were there and he turned to prayer back to me-he is always thinking of others more than himself. I am blessed to have a man like this in my life...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#74 Jan 20, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
I agree with Barnsweb, Getting drunk is the sin not drinking a mere drink of wine. The wine, however, was much weaker than that of today.
I find it interesting how hard it is for coc'ers to agree with me on anything even if I might be right. Being from the wrong side of town in the "perceived" wrong church has it's disadvantages on these threads where correct church doctrine is often in held in higher esteem than truth and common sense. Often they don't seek truth as much as they seek to prove the coc doctrine. Yes, we are all sometimes guilty of that!
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#75 Jan 20, 2013
Wonderful note on your friend Bobby. For all our differences, hopefully we can agree to believe what the Lord has said - rather than 'pet' doctrines that are not well founded in His word. No matter how much we know, it can't do us much good if we don't speak the truth in love - for God and His word first, and for each other as well. I'm still constantly reminded that even when undergoing crucifiction that He asked God to forgive their sin of ignorance. They should have known, but obviously didn't know what they thought they knew:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#76 Jan 20, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Wonderful note on your friend Bobby. For all our differences, hopefully we can agree to believe what the Lord has said - rather than 'pet' doctrines that are not well founded in His word. No matter how much we know, it can't do us much good if we don't speak the truth in love - for God and His word first, and for each other as well. I'm still constantly reminded that even when undergoing crucifiction that He asked God to forgive their sin of ignorance. They should have known, but obviously didn't know what they thought they knew:-)
Could you explain or unpack this scripture for me?

Phil 1:9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christóto the glory and praise of God.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#77 Jan 20, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>Could you explain or unpack this scripture for me?

Phil 1:9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ¬óto the glory and praise of God.
Well, it does not teach wine in the Lord's Supper or earned rewards. ;)

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#78 Jan 20, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>I find it interesting how hard it is for coc'ers to agree with me on anything even if I might be right. Being from the wrong side of town in the "perceived" wrong church has it's disadvantages on these threads where correct church doctrine is often in held in higher esteem than truth and common sense. Often they don't seek truth as much as they seek to prove the coc doctrine. Yes, we are all sometimes guilty of that!
So you're striving for incorrect church doctrine?

Hhhmmm
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#79 Jan 20, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Could you explain or unpack this scripture for me?
Phil 1:9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christóto the glory and praise of God.
Paul knew that love as Jesus defined it - seems he did anyway, that we show our love by abiding in His word and being doers of it. That by knowing and doing the love He taught, that would bring more discernment, that knowing the truth, one is set free to know the will of God personally, not just taking the word of some preacher or teacher, as we come to know the insights and depths it brings. And as we come to know and do more of those things that please God, we know we are blameless in doing them and are filled with Christ = we imitate Him that we know pleased God, and Christ in us is our hope of glory.

That's how I take it, from the perspective of what I've studied so far...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#80 Jan 20, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul knew that love as Jesus defined it - seems he did anyway, that we show our love by abiding in His word and being doers of it. That by knowing and doing the love He taught, that would bring more discernment, that knowing the truth, one is set free to know the will of God personally, not just taking the word of some preacher or teacher, as we come to know the insights and depths it brings. And as we come to know and do more of those things that please God, we know we are blameless in doing them and are filled with Christ = we imitate Him that we know pleased God, and Christ in us is our hope of glory.
That's how I take it, from the perspective of what I've studied so far...
I think you are on the right track. Verse 10 starts out this way: "10 so that you may be able to discern what is best": I think we might look at it this way. If we are seeking to do good (love)towards others we could give them everything they ask for, but if we are seeking what is best for them, it may mean that that if we love them we must allow them to go through some hardship to help them develop character, rather than to do everything for them. I think this sometimes is a higher form of love that requires discernment.

My take is that the passage has more to do with fellowship and relationship rather than rules based doctrine. Christ's gospel is based on love toward God and as an extension toward others.

Then in verse 11 he says"filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ". This means we received our righteousness from Jesus and the fruit of our righteousness comes from the basis of a relationship with him.

We can bear no fruit without Jesus. We abide in the greatest commandment based on the love shown to us through the events of the cross/gospel.

http://www.gotquestions.org/abide-in-Christ.h...

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