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221 - 240 of 242 Comments Last updated Mar 13, 2014

Since: May 10

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#223
Jan 21, 2014
 
Donna Snead wrote:
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Yeah WILL lol maybe instead of divorcing my drunk husband who beats me I should plant him 6 foot under then I can be forgiven and remarry. What a hoot you are Just Christian. What if a person is a sinner when they married in so called non scriptual way but later were saved? Some CoC say they can stay married but other CoC say they cant. Love that PATTERN you CoC have. Then you have some CoC say once a spouce dies who was involved in non scriptual divorce then the living person can marry. Yeah but other CoC say no you cant. I just love the CoC pattern lol. What a hoot
one ignorant argument you state here. I notice you or WIL did not answer when a sin is forgiven.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

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#224
Jan 21, 2014
 
Perhaps the question deserves a more complex answer.

We know Acts 2:38, that repentance and baptism for the unsaved lead to forgiveness of sins.

Acts 9:22- "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you."

For a believer, repentance and prayer here are involved.

John said that if we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us. Repentance, prayer, confession.

*The real question here is, is RESTITUTION of a situation required for forgiveness? And what if restitution is impossible- is there room for grace, or do we have an unforgiveable sin?

Since: May 10

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#225
Jan 22, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
Perhaps the question deserves a more complex answer.
We know Acts 2:38, that repentance and baptism for the unsaved lead to forgiveness of sins.
Acts 9:22- "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you."
For a believer, repentance and prayer here are involved.
John said that if we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us. Repentance, prayer, confession.
*The real question here is, is RESTITUTION of a situation required for forgiveness? And what if restitution is impossible- is there room for grace, or do we have an unforgiveable sin?
4 they *said to Him,“Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them,“He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her,“Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11 She said,“No one,[a]Lord.” And Jesus said,“I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”]

What was Christ command to this woman concerning the adultery sin in question?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#226
Jan 23, 2014
 

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JC, where do you see the word "forgiveness" at in His response? He simply said He didn't condemn her, go and sin no more. Was she forgiven yet? Did He wait until she confessed her adultery to her husband? How could she make "restitution" for her adultery? At what point was she forgiven for remaining "adultery free"? We know none of the answers to those questions.

There's a lot more to this whole idea than this one passage of scripture. Many use Zacchaeus as an example. He followed the OT law of restitution. Yet aren't we quick to say we aren't under law?

Could Paul make restitution for killing Christians?
How about Peter for denying the Lord?
How do we make restitution for looking at other women? After all, we've committed adultery.

And, where do we find "adulterous relationship" in the Bible?
Jerry Taylor

Martinsville, VA

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#227
Jan 24, 2014
 
This is a great question by Dave

"The real question here is, is RESTITUTION of a situation required for forgiveness? And what if restitution is impossible- is there room for grace, or do we have an unforgiveable sin? "
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#228
Jan 24, 2014
 

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Jerry Taylor wrote:
This is a great question by Dave
"The real question here is, is RESTITUTION of a situation required for forgiveness? And what if restitution is impossible- is there room for grace, or do we have an unforgiveable sin? "
And that's why that question went unexplored and we went back down the rabbit trail of the woman brought before Jesus. That question gets down to the brass tacks of the traditional MDR teaching.

Since: May 10

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#229
Jan 28, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
JC, where do you see the word "forgiveness" at in His response? He simply said He didn't condemn her, go and sin no more. Was she forgiven yet? Did He wait until she confessed her adultery to her husband? How could she make "restitution" for her adultery? At what point was she forgiven for remaining "adultery free"? We know none of the answers to those questions.
There's a lot more to this whole idea than this one passage of scripture. Many use Zacchaeus as an example. He followed the OT law of restitution. Yet aren't we quick to say we aren't under law?
Could Paul make restitution for killing Christians?
How about Peter for denying the Lord?
How do we make restitution for looking at other women? After all, we've committed adultery.
And, where do we find "adulterous relationship" in the Bible?
My comment said nothing of forgiveness of the lady. My question was what did Jesus command concerning sin in this situation.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#230
Jan 30, 2014
 

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Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Makes her commit adultery, so if I divorce my wife and it is not for adultery I make her commit adultery???
I have to wonder how this can be, but in reading the Old Testament I have to wonder since the contact states the husband is divorcing over false reasons and because of that he makes his wife to appear the adulterer is this in reality defaming her character and because of that Deuteronomy
Deuteronomy 22:19
and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
So in the context that marriage was to a virgin, by declaring her to be an adulterer the husband is lying about her as the husband in Deut 22 is doing about his wife and because of that he can NEVER divorce her and because he can NEVER divorce her and this is why the second marriage causes the new husband to commit adultery with her.
If not then please explain how a husband who divorces his wife for reasons other then adultery makes her commit adultery?

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

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#231
Jan 30, 2014
 
Jerry Taylor

Martinsville, VA

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#232
Jan 31, 2014
 

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that didnt answer anything heath.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#233
Jan 31, 2014
 

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One of Heaths traits is like the computer software used to track subs in the movie Red October, he runs home to a quote because he has been taken to far outside the things he has been taught.

I personally don't even follow his links anymore because I rarely find anything that actually engages what I have brought up.

In effect he has issued a "That does not compute" LOL
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#234
Feb 4, 2014
 
Wow I must have really rattled some cages to shut this thread down over linking Matthew 5 and Deut 22 not allowing divorce ever.

All things considered it makes sense this would be the case as making the innocent victim since per Matthew 5 she does not appear to have done anything wrong to justify divorce. Since Jesus continues to talk about the divorce making her to commit adultery when she is divorced for something other then adultery.

Jesus was very subtle at times with his speech examples like the above, statements like eat my flesh and drink my blood seem to carry a double meaning, of course the blood and flesh are the passover bread and wine.

So if the above linkage holds under the testing of it against the rest of the word what effect does it have on the MDR debate?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#235
Feb 4, 2014
 
HEATH - 72 wrote:
http://roysecitycoc.org/divorc e_remarriage
Reality
Reality... really? No OT scriptures to give any kind of background knowledge? Not even one verse from 1 Corinthians 7? I wonder why.

Reality, yeah right.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#236
Feb 4, 2014
 
JustChristian said- Please tell us WIL when an adulterous relationship becomes not sinful? What was Pauls advice to those who desired to follow both Christ and Moses? Tell us when a murder is forgiven? Tell us when any sin is forgiven of and what the person response is to that forgiveness.

I notice you or WIL did not answer when a sin is forgiven.

******JustChristian posted both of the above. Notice he desired an answer about when was a sin is forgiven. I answered......

Dave P-Perhaps the question deserves a more complex answer.

We know Acts 2:38, that repentance and baptism for the unsaved lead to forgiveness of sins.

Acts 9:22- "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you."

For a believer, repentance and prayer here are involved.

John said that if we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us. Repentance, prayer, confession.

*The real question here is, is RESTITUTION of a situation required for forgiveness? And what if restitution is impossible- is there room for grace, or do we have an unforgiveable sin?

***** I mentioned restitution because that is the heart of COC teaching on MDR. Notice then how the conversation changed....

JustChristian- What was Christ command to this woman concerning the adultery sin in question? My comment said nothing of forgiveness of the lady. My question was what did Jesus command concerning sin in this situation.

*****JC quoted from John 8, the woman caught in adultery. Ray Charles can see where this was going. Jesus said go and sin no more; which JC would then say that people today who have been married and divorced should break up. But dodged the question I asked about restitution.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#237
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Not too sure what the big fuss is all about with you Protesters about marriage.
The Bible is not talking about a civil marriage like you participate in. It is just a civil marriage and civil laws apply . You can get married and divorced as many times as you want. Just because the place you were married might have been in your "Church" building doesnt mean anything.
Jesus was talking about Jewish weddings and laws, not civil marriages.
In the Church, marriage is a sacrament. I have Marriage License from the State to be legal, and a Certificate of Marriage from God's Church. That are 2 separate things.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#238
Feb 6, 2014
 
Mike, the fuss is because the COC have basically made their own laws about MDR that doesn't bear up to God's revelation.

On your other points, not even in the Bible do I find a difference between civil marriage and any other type of marriage. I see no difference in Jewish weddings and any other types. I see nothing calling marriage a sacrament except in later traditions. I see no marriage ceremony with a priest in the scriptures. Our buddy Mark showed us the catholic marriage ceremonies here and the language used.

Marriage is simply a covenant made between two people. Whether made before civil authorities or a preacher in a church indeed makes no difference. Remember most of us do not buy into catholic ideas of a marriage sacrament.

I would say this. If you think that non catholic marriages are invalid or less "authentic" in God's judgment because it isn't in the catholic church, then you definitely have to find your reasoning in post Biblical tradition, because scripture assuredly does not make any such claim.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#239
Feb 6, 2014
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
Wow I must have really rattled some cages to shut this thread down over linking Matthew 5 and Deut 22 not allowing divorce ever.
All things considered it makes sense this would be the case as making the innocent victim since per Matthew 5 she does not appear to have done anything wrong to justify divorce. Since Jesus continues to talk about the divorce making her to commit adultery when she is divorced for something other then adultery.
Jesus was very subtle at times with his speech examples like the above, statements like eat my flesh and drink my blood seem to carry a double meaning, of course the blood and flesh are the passover bread and wine.
So if the above linkage holds under the testing of it against the rest of the word what effect does it have on the MDR debate?
I don't really see much linkage between the two. In the Deuteronomy 22 case, it is very specific in mentioning that he brings a bad name upon the woman, claiming she had not been chaste before marriage. He is defaming her, her family's name, and virgins in Israel. If he was wrong, and the father of the bride brought proof, then he may not divorce her. This isn't what was at play in the first century when Jesus spoke. Most acknowledge it was the practice of simply getting tired of the spouse, desiring someone else, and serial divorce that the Jewish rabbis debated.
Deuteronomy 24 mentions nothing about a charge of not being a virgin at marriage in the divorce section.
I believe Jesus is simply saying that they cause the spouse to commit adultery because the marriage covenant between the two hadn't been broken just because she burned the food, didn't look as pretty as before, put on some baby weight, etc.
Matthew 19- recall they asked if it was lawful to put away the spouse "for any reason". And in His answer, He said "Whoever divorces his wife, save for sexual immorality, AND MARRIES ANOTHER..." Is it possible that He is acknowledging that the real problem is that they have already desired and decided to marry someone else? Are they getting divorced simply to marry another person?
You do bring up very interesting points however, and have done more homework than most so-called "experts" out there. Heath didn't have one OT quote on his church website on the issue. By all means, let's continue this thought. Deuteronomy 22:28 also mentions a man who forces a virgin who isn't betrothed is to be forced to pay her father money, take her as wife, and not divorce her all his days because he humbled her.
One point all the COC types and others should remember- we are not dealing with American laws and customs in the 21st century.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#240
Feb 6, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
Mike, the fuss is because the COC have basically made their own laws about MDR that doesn't bear up to God's revelation.
On your other points, not even in the Bible do I find a difference between civil marriage and any other type of marriage. I see no difference in Jewish weddings and any other types. I see nothing calling marriage a sacrament except in later traditions. I see no marriage ceremony with a priest in the scriptures. Our buddy Mark showed us the catholic marriage ceremonies here and the language used.
Marriage is simply a covenant made between two people. Whether made before civil authorities or a preacher in a church indeed makes no difference. Remember most of us do not buy into catholic ideas of a marriage sacrament.
I would say this. If you think that non catholic marriages are invalid or less "authentic" in God's judgment because it isn't in the catholic church, then you definitely have to find your reasoning in post Biblical tradition, because scripture assuredly does not make any such claim.
Marriage for most people is a legal contract that is guided by state laws.

Sacred Scripture begins with the creation and union of man and woman and ends with "the wedding feast of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7, 9). Scripture often refers to marriage, its origin and purpose, the meaning God gave to it, and its renewal in the covenant made by Jesus with his Church.

God created man and woman out of love and commanded them to imitate his love in their relations with each other. Man and woman were created for each other. "It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.... The two of them become one body" (Gn 2:18; 24). Woman and man are equal in human dignity, and in marriage both are united in an unbreakable bond.

Jesus brought to full awareness the divine plan for marriage. In John’s Gospel, Christ’s first miracle occurs at the wedding in Cana.“The Church attaches great importance to Jesus’ presence at the wedding at Cana. She sees in it the confirmation of the goodness of marriage and the proclamation that thenceforth marriage will be an efficacious sign of Christ’s presence”(CCC, no. 1613).

By their marriage, the couple witnesses Christ's spousal love for the Church. One of the Nuptial Blessings in the liturgical celebration of marriage refers to this in saying, "Father, you have made the union of man and wife so holy a mystery that it symbolizes the marriage of Christ and his Church."

The Sacrament of Marriage is a covenant, which is more than a contract. Covenant always expresses a relationship between persons. The marriage covenant refers to the relationship between the husband and wife, a permanent union of persons capable of knowing and loving each other and God"
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#241
Mar 12, 2014
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe Jesus is simply saying that they cause the spouse to commit adultery because the marriage covenant between the two hadn't been broken just because she burned the food, didn't look as pretty as before, put on some baby weight, etc
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

...makes her commit adultery, how? How is she being made to commit adultery by the divorce? if one considers marriage a covenant with God then the breaking of that covenant by divorce would cause her to commit adultery against God because the covenant was broken.

When you introduce Spiritual Adultery into the thought process it is easy to understand Jesus statement, otherwise....

how is she being forced to commit adultery? She is not guilty of adultery against her husband, he is the one breaking covenant. She is the victim yet the statement says she commits adultery by force. How?
Mike Peterson

United States

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#242
Mar 12, 2014
 

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Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
...makes her commit adultery, how? How is she being made to commit adultery by the divorce? if one considers marriage a covenant with God then the breaking of that covenant by divorce would cause her to commit adultery against God because the covenant was broken.
When you introduce Spiritual Adultery into the thought process it is easy to understand Jesus statement, otherwise....
how is she being forced to commit adultery? She is not guilty of adultery against her husband, he is the one breaking covenant. She is the victim yet the statement says she commits adultery by force. How?
Do you really believe divorce = adultery???

Who gave you the authority to interpret and teach the Word of God? The Bible didn't . Name the person who gave you that authority?

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