Warren rally Tuesday for Big Three co...

Warren rally Tuesday for Big Three coincides with auto show - The Macomb Daily News

There are 60 comments on the macombdaily.com story from Jan 12, 2009, titled Warren rally Tuesday for Big Three coincides with auto show - The Macomb Daily News. In it, macombdaily.com reports that:

A rally supporting General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and their employees will be held at 3 p.m. Tuesday inside the Warren City Hall atrium.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at macombdaily.com.

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dylan

Kalamazoo, MI

#46 Jan 18, 2009
If you'd read it you'd see that I'm not missing a thing. Re-read it a few times.

"Because of its enormousness and impact on our Economy, we must, reluctantly, with ambivalence, care. We must care for the millions of families that directly and indirectly are affected. You and I are affected. The interconnections with countless suppliers make it imperative that we care and respond."
Mike34

Kalamazoo, MI

#47 Jan 18, 2009
dabam,
That's exactly what dylan said. Did you even read his comment. If so, I'd call Evelyn Wood and get a refund!

“It's Time for Change!”

Since: Sep 08

St. Clair Shores, MI

#48 Jan 18, 2009
dylan wrote:
If you'd read it you'd see that I'm not missing a thing. Re-read it a few times.
"Because of its enormousness and impact on our Economy, we must, reluctantly, with ambivalence, care. We must care for the millions of families that directly and indirectly are affected. You and I are affected. The interconnections with countless suppliers make it imperative that we care and respond."
Dylan I apologize, but in my defense your point was rather buried in your post.
Chris Vitale

United States

#49 Jan 18, 2009
dylan wrote:
You weren't too concerned when Sony and Matsushita inherited the electronics market in the 50's and 60's.
It didn't bother you that many manufacturing jobs have gone overseas since then. Did you even notice when our auto makers out sourced hundreds of our jobs to Mexico?
[snip]
You may say,“Why reluctantly?"
It's reluctantly because the auto companies and unions have taken advantage of the citizenry for 60 years. They have done a miserable job managing their industry. They figured the oligopoly was such that they could be as inefficient and aloof as they wished without recourse. It astounded me that every 3 years the union would request and get whatever contract they desired. There they were, shaking hands across the board room table, grinning, thick as thieves. They just passed the added cost on to us: their captive audience.
I believe, initially, that the unions helped create the middle class. But their unconstrained influence on the industry has largely contributed to this situation.
I'd like to answer a few of these points with an injection of facts...

Who are you to say "I/we" ignored the destruction of our electronics industry? The electronics industry "won" its dumping lawsuit against Japanese builders, but by the time our US court system acted, most except Zenith and RCA had already declared bankruptcy.

Incidentally, Sony was never included in this lawsuit because Sony won its market share by delivering a quality product. The lawsuit was against companies like Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, NEC, etc. who sold sets below the cost of production (making up the losses on the Japanese consumer) and who also did not respect international patent law, much like China today.
My family specifically sought out Zenith television sets in the 70s/80s because it was the last company to design and manufacture them in the US. If you came to my home today, you'd not see a single television set that wasn't built and designed in the US. As a consequence, the newest set I own is old enough to drink in Canada.
BTW, we gave nothing up in quality. All of them have been in use for decades without repair, and are still delivering sharp pictures. But I digress...

I never let price be the sole dictator of any purchase that offers an alternative made in a nation without trade policies that discriminate against the US, which is basically North America, and if I rule out nations with "maximum wage" policies, it pretty much leaves just the US and Canada.

Domestic auto companies didn't build Mexican factories overnight after NAFTA passed. In fact, all of the Chrysler facilities in Mexico are at least 30-years old, and have been in continuous operation. At one time, the Mexican government required auto companies to manufacture a high percentage of their products within the Mexican border in order to access the market. After the passage of NAFTA, those factories shifted from building "duplicate versions" of products, to simply becoming the exclusive source of a product (and American factories became exclusive sources for products now "allowed" to be sold in Mexico).
I won't dispute some of the poor business decisions made by US auto companies over the past 50-years. By the same token, you should give up the idea that these mistakes are somehow unique to American companies. Do you know how many Mitsubishi executives are in (Japanese) jail for covering safety defects over a 20-year period? How wise were Toyota and Nissan to begin building full-size trucks that deliver WORSE fuel economy than any American offering, in the face of an oil economy that has been unstable since at least 9-11-2001?
Chris Vitale

United States

#50 Jan 18, 2009
Domestic auto companies didn't build Mexican factories overnight after NAFTA passed. In fact, all of the Chrysler facilities in Mexico are at least 30-years old, and have been in continuous operation. At one time, the Mexican government required auto companies to manufacture a high percentage of their products within the Mexican border in order to access the market. After the passage of NAFTA, those factories shifted from building "duplicate versions" of products, to simply becoming the exclusive source of a product (and American factories became exclusive sources for products now "allowed" to be sold in Mexico).

I won't dispute some of the poor business decisions made by US auto companies over the past 50-years. By the same token, you should give up the idea that these mistakes are somehow unique to American companies. Do you know how many Mitsubishi executives are in (Japanese) jail for covering safety defects over a 20-year period? How wise were Toyota and Nissan to begin building full-size trucks that deliver WORSE fuel economy than any American offering, in the face of an oil economy that has been unstable since at least 9-11-2001?

I'd be quite willing to bet that those who play the "union served its purpose" song have very little knowledge of what goes on inside a UAW plant in the modern-era. One person standing against the contract-house supervisor looking to make a name doesn't stand a chance without third party representation.

I myself was brought in for disciplinary action because I turned in a vacation form for the 08/09 calendar year, rather than 07/08... Basically a clerical error, made by the person who handed out the form. The supervisor bringing the action was basically laughed out of the conference room; but I wonder if that would have been the case without UAW representation?

As I have stated before, and will state again... I am not a protectionist. I see the value in fair trade. I also see the effects of limiting the potential exports of this country due to the protectionist trade policies of other nations that continue to this day.

The fact that Warren's Mayor Fouts decided to focus his message on "Buy American" was in fact against my pleas, but his heart was in the right place by hosting ANY type of rally that allowed some of these truths to get out into the media.
I urge you to read the content of quotes I made in the Warren speech in this article from the Washington Times:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/...
"Auto workers here continue to fight what they say is a false public perception they are overpaid and make low-quality vehicles. Chris Vitale, a rally speaker and Chrysler employee, spoke out against the industry's "national inferiority complex."

"Detroit has allowed itself to be painted as a dinosaur," he said before touting its development of key auto technology over the years including the catalytic converter along with other emissions and safety standards. "Ford was testing airbags here when the Beatles were still together," he said.

"If it's important and comes from a car, it was probably invented within 100 miles from where I stand," said Mr. Vitale, noting the GM [tech center] plant that was literally within walking distance from Warren's government complex.
Mr. Vitale called on Congress to update foreign trade policies that he said have harmed U.S. manufacturers. He described bankruptcy as a bad plan that breaks the nation's trust, even as some Southern lawmakers have suggested it as an auto industry option.

"I see the value of fair trade, but what I'm asking for is a level field."

I'd say getting that many lines in the Washington Times, as well as an interview with ABC, was a worthwhile effort, despite what some "topix" critics might think.
Chris Vitale

United States

#51 Jan 18, 2009
(Pardon the earlier re-post, inability to edit is yet another topix flaw.)

Picking up at "digress"...

I never let price be the sole dictator of any purchase that offers an alternative made in a nation without trade policies that discriminate against the US, which is basically North America, and if I rule out nations with "maximum wage" policies, it pretty much leaves just the US and Canada.

Domestic auto companies didn't build Mexican factories overnight after NAFTA passed. In fact, all of the Chrysler facilities in Mexico are at least 30-years old, and have been in continuous operation. At one time, the Mexican government required auto companies to manufacture a high percentage of their products within the Mexican border in order to access the market. After the passage of NAFTA, those factories shifted from building "duplicate versions" of products, to simply becoming the exclusive source of a product (and American factories became exclusive sources for products now "allowed" to be sold in Mexico).

I won't dispute some of the poor business decisions made by US auto companies over the past 50-years. By the same token, you should give up the idea that these mistakes are somehow unique to American companies. Do you know how many Mitsubishi executives are in (Japanese) jail for covering safety defects over a 20-year period? How wise were Toyota and Nissan to begin building full-size trucks that deliver WORSE fuel economy than any American offering, in the face of an oil economy that has been unstable since at least 9-11-2001?

I'd be quite willing to bet that those who play the "union served its purpose" song have very little knowledge of what goes on inside a UAW plant in the modern-era. One person standing against the contract-house supervisor looking to make a name doesn't stand a chance without third party representation.

I myself was brought in for disciplinary action because I turned in a vacation form for the 08/09 calendar year, rather than 07/08... Basically a clerical error, made by the person who handed out the form. The supervisor bringing the action was basically laughed out of the conference room; but I wonder if that would have been the case without UAW representation?
Mike34

Kalamazoo, MI

#52 Jan 19, 2009
Chris Vitale wrote:
I never let price be the sole dictator of any purchase that offers an alternative made in a nation without trade policies that discriminate against the US, which is basically North America, and if I rule out nations with "maximum wage" policies, it pretty much leaves just the US and Canada.

I'd be quite willing to bet that those who play the "union served its purpose" song have very little knowledge of what goes on inside a UAW plant in the modern-era. One person standing against the contract-house supervisor looking to make a name doesn't stand a chance without third party representation.
I myself was brought in for disciplinary action because I turned in a vacation form for the 08/09 calendar year, rather than 07/08... Basically a clerical error, made by the person who handed out the form. The supervisor bringing the action was basically laughed out of the conference room; but I wonder if that would have been the case without UAW representation?
I’d like to answer your reply on a few points with an interjection of unbiased facts…
You wrote…
“Who are you to say "I/we" ignored the destruction of our electronics industry?”
The fact is that, we the citizenry, didn’t care about losing those jobs because they were scattered throughout many small companies. The trend was, in the 50’s, that our Government was helping rebuild Japan and Asia. We thought that those losses were insignificant.
You wrote…
“If you came to my home today, you'd not see a single television set that wasn't built and designed in the US.“
You are truly a unique individual! That was truly laughable. Apart from being irrelevant, it’s totally ludicrous. 100% of your fellow workers own foreign electronics. I’m sure you’re reading this on a Zenith Z-100 and Z-29.
You wrote…
“I never let price be the sole dictator of any purchase that offers an alternative made in a nation without trade policies that discriminate against the US”
Again, you are truly unique! You crack me up! You’re the solution, not the problem. Are you running for office? I guess Walmart is an apparition?
The fact is as I wrote. When I offered customers a Ridgid brand 18” Pipe wrench (made in U.S.A.) for $39.95, I sold zero compared to the $16.99 foreign ones that sell out.
You wrote…
“I'd be quite willing to bet that those who play the "union served its purpose" song have very little knowledge of what goes on inside a UAW plant in the modern-era.“
The key words here are “modern-era”. The UAW had to improve its standards. My father-in-law would tell me stories of the Chrysler St. Jean plant that were outrageous.
As I wrote…
“I believe, initially, that the unions helped create the middle class. But their unconstrained influence on the industry has largely contributed to this situation.”
Your personal experiences are interesting but not counterpoint.
So, before you set yourself as gospel, study the real world. The, the, oh yeah, facts!
dylan

Kalamazoo, MI

#53 Jan 19, 2009
Sorry about that! My friend Mike had posted and his name defaulted to the name field.

The previous post was by dylan.

Sorry.
No More

United States

#54 Jan 19, 2009
I disagree, while it would be a loss for the area. It would not be any bigger than the loss of the Steel Worker in Pennsylvania or the Railroad worker in Ohio.

In our diverse economy manufacturing makes 11%, autos are around 4%. You know what else is 4%? Automobile accidents, the defense budget. The defense budget effects about 15 times the number of people the auto industry does(and that is including the dealers who make up over 50% of the auto related jobs) yet we hear all the time about cutting the defense budget or even better national health care, these all employ millions of Americans.

The problem is "they" are only worried about themselves once again and can not understand why the public doesn't care, because "they" didn't care about the rest of the world.

Did the teamsters care about the Kroger employees making $7-$20 and hour when they pushed for a boycott after Kroger returned work back to its home state in Ohio.

I applaud you Chris for not backing Fouts with "buy american" slogans which would create more harm then these people realize.

Having tunnel vision is ignoring the world around you, where as the autoworkers are once again only worried about themselves without regard to the area around them.
No More

United States

#55 Jan 19, 2009
dylan wrote:
I believe, initially, that the unions helped create the middle class.
This is another thing that has bothered me throughout this whole thing. The unions did not create the middle class.

The middle class in this country started in its infancy where the common man was allowed to own land. We then progressed to the Farmers, the industrial age and then the technology. We need to find the next middle class not revel in the middle class of in its 3rd iteration, we need to find the fifth.

Wasn't it Jimma Hoffa who credit the unions with allowing the common working man to join the middle class. If they created it they wouldn't have to join it.
Chris Vitale

Ormond Beach, FL

#56 Jan 19, 2009
Dylan: Your points about what I choose to do individually are noted. I never said it was the "norm", obviously it's far from it. It angers me to no end that more of my peers don't care about job losses in other industries. I lay much of this blame at the feet of UAW leadership.

On this day honoring Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, I think we should acknowledge that some blacks DID ride buses during the Montgomery bus boycott, and most all of them did previously. I'm sure there were many who said "this won't matter". That boycott lasted over a year.

Do you mock their efforts? Do you deny that this movement helped to change long-entrenched attitudes? I'm certainly not comparing myself to Dr. King, but I am always puzzled at the people who will make an "extra" effort to mock the efforts of others.

Is it more important to be part of the crowd Dylan, or more important to stand up for what you believe in? I think it's obvious that I'm doing something besides voting with my wallet, or posting on topix. In fact, in a couple hours I plant to meet with other like-minded people and discuss further action plans.

Beats wasting time on the internet.

No more: On a similar note, don't assume that "no one cares" just because you aren't aware of every effort. It's EXTREMELY hard to interest the media in anything outside the norm. It becomes a chicken vs. egg problem... People don't turn out unless they see others doing it, media won't report until they see a large crowd.

Sorry I can't dedicate more time to this reply, but other matters vie for my time...
No More

United States

#57 Jan 19, 2009
I don't believe they are "mocking" the efforts of others. People get very tired very quickly by people who like to shape someone elses life especially when they do not live the lifestyle they would like to enforce.

I just guess I have seen the other side too many times. Autoworkers choosing non-union labor for jobs. Autoworkers shopping at non-union grocery stores or frequenting Wal-Mart and CostCo. But when the Detroit Three are in trouble they want everyone else to fall in line.

“It's Time for Change!”

Since: Sep 08

St. Clair Shores, MI

#58 Jan 19, 2009
No More wrote:
I don't believe they are "mocking" the efforts of others. People get very tired very quickly by people who like to shape someone elses life especially when they do not live the lifestyle they would like to enforce.
I just guess I have seen the other side too many times. Autoworkers choosing non-union labor for jobs. Autoworkers shopping at non-union grocery stores or frequenting Wal-Mart and CostCo. But when the Detroit Three are in trouble they want everyone else to fall in line.
So are you saying that union workers should only shop at retailers that have unions. I'm a non-union employed person, so therefore I should only shop at non-union retailers. That's what your argument is saying. Could you clarify this a little better for me?
No More

United States

#59 Jan 19, 2009
Sure, I can clarify.

When you criticize someone else for their buying choices you damn well better make sure that you are doing the same.

For example, don't drive around with a Buy American, Buy Union bumper sticker and then shop at Wal-Mart. Do not criticize others for their purchasing decisions when you are doing the exact same thing and not supporting the causes you demand of others.

And no, that is not what may argument is saying. My argument is saying is that the UAW are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to calling out others for eating their own dogfood.

You should be able to shop where ever you choose without people attempting to make you feel guilty.

“It's Time for Change!”

Since: Sep 08

St. Clair Shores, MI

#60 Jan 19, 2009
No More wrote:
Sure, I can clarify.
When you criticize someone else for their buying choices you damn well better make sure that you are doing the same.
For example, don't drive around with a Buy American, Buy Union bumper sticker and then shop at Wal-Mart. Do not criticize others for their purchasing decisions when you are doing the exact same thing and not supporting the causes you demand of others.
And no, that is not what may argument is saying. My argument is saying is that the UAW are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to calling out others for eating their own dogfood.
You should be able to shop where ever you choose without people attempting to make you feel guilty.
Thanks for the clarifying that.
Chris Vitale

Ann Arbor, MI

#61 Jan 19, 2009
No More wrote:
Sure, I can clarify.
When you criticize someone else for their buying choices you damn well better make sure that you are doing the same.
For example, don't drive around with a Buy American, Buy Union bumper sticker and then shop at Wal-Mart. Do not criticize others for their purchasing decisions when you are doing the exact same thing and not supporting the causes you demand of others.
And no, that is not what may argument is saying. My argument is saying is that the UAW are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to calling out others for eating their own dogfood.
You should be able to shop where ever you choose without people attempting to make you feel guilty.
So is this an argument about the UAW, or trade policies and government policies that make my employer less competitive?
For me it has zero to do with unions. The UAW is a red herring in this debate.
No More

Wixom, MI

#62 Jan 19, 2009
IMO none of those made them less competitive, they made themselves less competitive. They are just excuses that continue to run ramapant around and the union halls instead of accepting the same blame that they all deserve. The consumers are the not problem.
Tina

Farmington, MI

#63 Jan 20, 2009
Chris Vitale wrote:
Dylan: Your points about what I choose to do individually are noted. I never said it was the "norm", obviously it's far from it. It angers me to no end that more of my peers don't care about job losses in other industries. I lay much of this blame at the feet of UAW leadership.
On this day honoring Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, I think we should acknowledge that some blacks DID ride buses during the Montgomery bus boycott, and most all of them did previously. I'm sure there were many who said "this won't matter". That boycott lasted over a year.
Do you mock their efforts? Do you deny that this movement helped to change long-entrenched attitudes? I'm certainly not comparing myself to Dr. King, but I am always puzzled at the people who will make an "extra" effort to mock the efforts of others.
Is it more important to be part of the crowd Dylan, or more important to stand up for what you believe in? I think it's obvious that I'm doing something besides voting with my wallet, or posting on topix. In fact, in a couple hours I plant to meet with other like-minded people and discuss further action plans.
Beats wasting time on the internet.
No more: On a similar note, don't assume that "no one cares" just because you aren't aware of every effort. It's EXTREMELY hard to interest the media in anything outside the norm. It becomes a chicken vs. egg problem... People don't turn out unless they see others doing it, media won't report until they see a large crowd.
Sorry I can't dedicate more time to this reply, but other matters vie for my time...
Thats OK, go take care of your other matters that vie for your time.
thisplaceisgreat

Charleston, SC

#64 Jan 20, 2009
I bet your employer was thrilled at the thought of getting rid of you and your little man issues. To bad the union had to mess that one up.
Mark

Troy, MI

#65 Jan 21, 2009
No More wrote:
Mark, I understand your point. However, you are missing the bigger picture. The US has enjoyed selling goods overseas for decades. Especially after the War. These sales provided revenue for operations. If you close off this lucrative market to other countries they will issue a response. If they close off their market to the US then GM for example is out over 60% of its sales. That number is too large to be made up just by the US consumer.
We can sell goods over the sea and collect the money. We sell cars, we sell tanks, guns etc.
But, we are selling perfect marchendise, but we are selling here China, India, Taiwan poor quality here in USA and loosing work place.
Please check the Wall Mart, mejers stores - they sell tootpaste made in China mixed with ethynol.
On the cover box is printed - Distributed in USA by ...... Inside the box - Made in China.
You are buying this for $ 1.39.
You know what is ETHYNOL?
Our Gov. do not care about people, just the money and profit. It is worth place our kids, our self in sick China pruduct?
Nothing is wrong to make a money, but do not kill me and others, we do not sell junks over sea.
We are losing oue self for money, for few dollars.
AMERICA - wake up.
Stand up
mark

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