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LiberTEA

Hopkinsville, KY

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#63
Mar 21, 2013
 

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2Independent wrote:
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You have no stats to back that up.
I don't need "stats" in the form of a bunch of cooked up numbers that nobody understands to back up what I say. Nobody needs them. All they have to do to see it is read the old newspapers. They are available online:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

They don't have the Murray papers, but they do have Paducah, Hopkinsville, Clarksville, and Nashville. Read those newspapers and you'll see the real world of that time, not the false socialist inspired image of it that is in high school history books today.

Since: Feb 13

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#64
Mar 21, 2013
 

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LiberTEA wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't need "stats" in the form of a bunch of cooked up numbers that nobody understands to back up what I say. Nobody needs them. All they have to do to see it is read the old newspapers. They are available online:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/
They don't have the Murray papers, but they do have Paducah, Hopkinsville, Clarksville, and Nashville. Read those newspapers and you'll see the real world of that time, not the false socialist inspired image of it that is in high school history books today.
You are referring to anecdotal evidence, which is not really evidence at all. Anywhere you read you will discover that the middle class did not exist in any significant numbers until after WWII. That was not an accident. You have no statistics for your opinion. I do.
Retired Coal Miner

Gilbertsville, KY

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#65
Mar 21, 2013
 
2Independent wrote:
<quoted text>
You are referring to anecdotal evidence, which is not really evidence at all. Anywhere you read you will discover that the middle class did not exist in any significant numbers until after WWII. That was not an accident. You have no statistics for your opinion. I do.
You may as well give it up. With the Tea Party crowd ideology trumps statistics and facts.

A friend of mine, an old UMW official, told me that the Tea Party are "Bolsheviks in reverse."

Since: Oct 09

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#66
Mar 21, 2013
 
libertarian Lizzie wrote:
<quoted text>
You are mixing apples and pears here. Income taxes are federal, sales taxes are state or locally imposed and in Kentucky neither the factory owner nor the single mom pays income taxes on their groceries.
I wasn't aware of anywhere where they pay income tax on groceries.:-)
Assuming you meant sales tax, I did originally have "if Susie lived in Tennessee" but I deleted it because it was rather arbitrary and distracting to the point. Perhaps, I should have left it in.
libertarian Lizzie wrote:
<quoted text>
You also are mistaken about the lower wage earners not "having the opportunity" to invest their income. Why not? I started out making $.80/hr back in the '70s as a waitress in high school. A percentage of every paycheck I got was saved and invested.
I said they didn't "really" have the opportunity to take advantage of things like the more favorable capital gains rate, as opposed to income tax rates, not that they were incapable of saving or shouldn't be thrifty. It is one thing to save money and invest, but for most folks, even the non-poor, it is a pretty passive enterprise, mostly consisting of buying securities and holding them for long periods.
Most low wage earners that we are talking about who do so will do so inside of a retirement account, and transactions within those accounts are not subject to capital gains taxes. If they do so in a taxable account, they will most likely rarely sell a security and thus rarely incur a capital gain from that. They might get distributed one if they own mutual funds, but that may happen because the fund sold holdings, regardless of whether the investor actually profited from it.
libertarian Lizzie wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a matter of discipline and budgeting to live within your means. It's a matter of believing the old saw, "The borrower is slave to the lender" and not falling into the debt trap and making a slave of yourself because you must have the latest gadget or newest vehicle.
...
It's not that lower income earners have no opportunity, it's that they choose not to take advantage of those opportunities because they choose to go into debt for something they want rather than living within their means. They make decisions to spend rather than save and invest.
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We've got to start teaching people to fish rather than giving them fish---our children included.
I agree with your sentiments and I too have read The Total Money Makeover (and would be on step 6 if step 3 had been a little more adequate recently). ;-)
However, I disagree with your blanket generalization that lower wage earners cannot save because they have to have the latest gadget or vehicle. Sure, those people exist and when I see someone in that situation I just want to shake some sense into them.
But there are lots of people who work hard and "don't have the latest gadgets and they drive an old beater" but then they have a medical emergency, a car wreck, a layoff, that beater breaks down, etc. Sometimes the best discipline and budgeting in the world can't make up for a mess of bad luck.
Fact Check

Paducah, KY

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#67
Mar 21, 2013
 
Anonymous Keyboard Tapper wrote:
<quoted text>
I wasn't aware of anywhere where they pay income tax on groceries.:-)
Assuming you meant sales tax, I did originally have "if Susie lived in Tennessee" but I deleted it because it was rather arbitrary and distracting to the point. Perhaps, I should have left it in.
<quoted text>
I said they didn't "really" have the opportunity to take advantage of things like the more favorable capital gains rate, as opposed to income tax rates, not that they were incapable of saving or shouldn't be thrifty. It is one thing to save money and invest, but for most folks, even the non-poor, it is a pretty passive enterprise, mostly consisting of buying securities and holding them for long periods.
Most low wage earners that we are talking about who do so will do so inside of a retirement account, and transactions within those accounts are not subject to capital gains taxes. If they do so in a taxable account, they will most likely rarely sell a security and thus rarely incur a capital gain from that. They might get distributed one if they own mutual funds, but that may happen because the fund sold holdings, regardless of whether the investor actually profited from it.
<quoted text>
I agree with your sentiments and I too have read The Total Money Makeover (and would be on step 6 if step 3 had been a little more adequate recently). ;-)
However, I disagree with your blanket generalization that lower wage earners cannot save because they have to have the latest gadget or vehicle. Sure, those people exist and when I see someone in that situation I just want to shake some sense into them.
But there are lots of people who work hard and "don't have the latest gadgets and they drive an old beater" but then they have a medical emergency, a car wreck, a layoff, that beater breaks down, etc. Sometimes the best discipline and budgeting in the world can't make up for a mess of bad luck.
Groceries are taxed in 19 states. Here is a link to the info:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/...

There is a move now underway in North Carolina to do away with the state's income tax and replace it with a tax on food. The express reason behind that move is that poor people do not pay anything in taxes, whereas they do buy food and would therefore pay the sales tax.

Since: Feb 13

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#68
Mar 21, 2013
 
Kentucky's income tax is punishing to poor people. When I was in college and working for little of nothing and living on it on my own, my federal income tax was nearly nothing, but the state income tax was uncompromising. It hasn't changed. Ever since, I have had a good stream of income and I think my state income tax is too low compared to what people pay who are dirt poor.

Since: Oct 09

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#69
Mar 21, 2013
 
Fact Check wrote:
<quoted text>
Groceries are taxed in 19 states. Here is a link to the info:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/...
There is a move now underway in North Carolina to do away with the state's income tax and replace it with a tax on food. The express reason behind that move is that poor people do not pay anything in taxes, whereas they do buy food and would therefore pay the sales tax.
But how many of them have INCOME tax on groceries?

They talked about doing it here too, but the tax reform panel rejected the proposal last year.

Since: Oct 09

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#70
Mar 21, 2013
 
2Independent wrote:
Kentucky's income tax is punishing to poor people. When I was in college and working for little of nothing and living on it on my own, my federal income tax was nearly nothing, but the state income tax was uncompromising. It hasn't changed. Ever since, I have had a good stream of income and I think my state income tax is too low compared to what people pay who are dirt poor.
That just means they are more fair, because they are flatter, only 4% between the high and low.
Fact Check

Paducah, KY

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#71
Mar 22, 2013
 
Anonymous Keyboard Tapper wrote:
<quoted text>
But how many of them have INCOME tax on groceries?
They talked about doing it here too, but the tax reform panel rejected the proposal last year.
There is no way that you could have income tax on groceries. Income tax is on money that you make. You spend money for groceries, so any tax that consumers pay on groceries is and must be a sales tax.

Since: Oct 09

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#72
Mar 22, 2013
 
Fact Check wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no way that you could have income tax on groceries. Income tax is on money that you make. You spend money for groceries, so any tax that consumers pay on groceries is and must be a sales tax.
Sorry, you aren't getting the joke from previous posts. libertarian Lizzie had said this:
libertarian Lizzie wrote:
<quoted text>
You are mixing apples and pears here. Income taxes are federal, sales taxes are state or locally imposed and in Kentucky neither the factory owner nor the single mom pays INCOME taxes on their groceries.
To which I said:
Anonymous Keyboard Tapper wrote:
<quoted text>
I wasn't aware of anywhere where they pay income tax on groceries.:-)
...
Which you quoted in your Fact Check with the link to the states that charge sales tax. Which is why I asked the question I did, not because I have a complete misunderstanding of the difference between income tax and sales tax. Just playing around.

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