Standoff ends peacefully; 2-year-old safe

Full story: WOOD-TV Grand Rapids and Michigan

A two-year-old is reunited with his mother after a man surrendered to police following a six-hour standoff at a home.

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Reflex

Bellevue, WA

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#21
Apr 29, 2008
 
Wendy - Some explanations:

- He was not drinking early in the morning, re-read the article, it was 11PM, not AM.

- While it is true that he potentially could be a danger to the child, that could be said of anyone at any time. Thats why one has to go by a person's track record, namely the fact that at no point ever in his personal history had he harmed or threatened to harm his child. We can play the 'what if' game all day, but going by the facts there was no reason to suspect him as being capable of harming his child. Thats a HUGE leap to make from 'angry at his wife' to 'harming his child who is sleeping away from it all'.

- She has not dismissed it cavialierly, there will be charges filed. You try talking to the media after a night of no sleep after something like this in a coherant fashion.

- He is currently locked in jail and cannot post bail. He will likely be facing time, and hopefully psychiatric help.

Any other concerns that you have that I have not addressed?
Margo

United States

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#22
Apr 29, 2008
 
Come on rebate checks--get here already. No excuses he had money for alcohol. THIS is sad I hope the little one was sleeping.
Commentator

Chatfield, MN

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#23
Apr 29, 2008
 
Rval2: 1.) You do not know this family. 2.) The limited information you have regarding this event is second-hand via the media, with the exception of the information given by Reflex.

I think we can all agree that this man's actions were criminal. However, that's as far as we can go with our judgements based on the facts presented to us. He may be a train wreck waiting to happen, or he may be a basically decent person who made a really bad decision. We have no way of knowing, nor is it our job to make that assessment. However, the fact that he had the means to hurt or kill several people, but eventually chose to surrender peacefully indicates he may not be some antisocial lunatic. Again, who knows? Not us, because we don't have enough information to make that call. Your need to condemn him rather than his actions leads me to wonder if you have felt unjustly judged in your life.

The fact that you continue to insult and badger Reflex says much about your motivations in this blog. The overall tone of your statements, especially those made toward or in response to Reflex, paint you as somewhat narcisstic and less than insightful. Intelligence is often demonstrated by the ability to say, "You make a good point. Let me consider that."

Reflex - my unsolicited advice to you is to allow Rval2 to say whatever s/he wishes. You do not need to respond to insults. Your comments have been respectful, and I'm sure most people recognize maturity or a lack thereof when they see it.
Lunchbox

Plainwell, MI

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#24
Apr 29, 2008
 
I think everyone who posts here is just stupid. None of you make any sense. One person says something, another refutes it, person one continues EVEN THOUGH IT'S BEEN PROVEN WRONG, then person 2 goes on a rant about how wrong person one is even though everyone KNOWS THEY ARE WRONG. Fudge!

“...all but 6...UNLESS”

Since: Mar 08

The Merry Ol Land Of Oz

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#25
Apr 29, 2008
 
Commentator~you've given yourself away...be more careful
jane

Mount Pleasant, MI

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#26
Apr 29, 2008
 
I don't believe anyone knows what they would do in this situation. The situation was obviously out of control and she did the best she could. Yes, she left her child in the home, but he was sleeping. Would it have been better for her to have been shot and possibly killed leaving the child without a mother? Maybe everyone should quit judging her for her decision and support her for trying to do the right thing in an extremely stressful situation.
Sarah in Jenison

Novi, MI

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#27
Apr 29, 2008
 
Commentator wrote:
Rval2: 1.) You do not know this family. 2.) The limited information you have regarding this event is second-hand via the media, with the exception of the information given by Reflex.
I think we can all agree that this man's actions were criminal. However, that's as far as we can go with our judgements based on the facts presented to us. He may be a train wreck waiting to happen, or he may be a basically decent person who made a really bad decision. We have no way of knowing, nor is it our job to make that assessment. However, the fact that he had the means to hurt or kill several people, but eventually chose to surrender peacefully indicates he may not be some antisocial lunatic. Again, who knows? Not us, because we don't have enough information to make that call. Your need to condemn him rather than his actions leads me to wonder if you have felt unjustly judged in your life.
The fact that you continue to insult and badger Reflex says much about your motivations in this blog. The overall tone of your statements, especially those made toward or in response to Reflex, paint you as somewhat narcisstic and less than insightful. Intelligence is often demonstrated by the ability to say, "You make a good point. Let me consider that."
Reflex - my unsolicited advice to you is to allow Rval2 to say whatever s/he wishes. You do not need to respond to insults. Your comments have been respectful, and I'm sure most people recognize maturity or a lack thereof when they see it.
Wha?! Do we finally have a "forum psychologist" in our midst? Where have you been?! Or let me guess...this is Rob? OK joke is up! Nice try...LOL
Sarah in Jenison

Novi, MI

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#28
Apr 29, 2008
 
rval2 wrote:
Commentator~you've given yourself away...be more careful
Rval2 - Who is the "ALL POWERFUL" Commentator? I say Rob or GR Teacher.

Any guesses?
mom of three

United States

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#29
Apr 30, 2008
 
o.k so he has no history of harming the child buttttttttttttt he could have does he have a history of harming the mom hmmmmmmmmmmmmm must be she felt the need to leave
Wendy

Greenville, MI

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#30
Apr 30, 2008
 
Reflex wrote:
Wendy - Some explanations:
- He was not drinking early in the morning, re-read the article, it was 11PM, not AM.
- While it is true that he potentially could be a danger to the child, that could be said of anyone at any time. Thats why one has to go by a person's track record, namely the fact that at no point ever in his personal history had he harmed or threatened to harm his child. We can play the 'what if' game all day, but going by the facts there was no reason to suspect him as being capable of harming his child. Thats a HUGE leap to make from 'angry at his wife' to 'harming his child who is sleeping away from it all'.
- She has not dismissed it cavialierly, there will be charges filed. You try talking to the media after a night of no sleep after something like this in a coherant fashion.
- He is currently locked in jail and cannot post bail. He will likely be facing time, and hopefully psychiatric help.
Any other concerns that you have that I have not addressed?
Nope, you addressed them all thanks =) When I first read this story I was really po'd at the Mother for not taking her child out of the house. But after I sat and pondered that...I realized that would have been an even worse thing to do. I hope the man gets serious psychiatric help, and probably some AA help too. Anyone is capable of hurting themselves or others when alcohol and depression mix together. Good luck to the Mom trying to talk through this with her child also. It would be a hard thing to explain.
Reflex

Seattle, WA

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#31
Apr 30, 2008
 
Wendy - Thanks for being rational about it. Its easy to jump to conclusions on things like this but when it comes down to it nobody really knows what they would do. I do not think the smart thing when he had a firearm pointed at her would have been to insist on retrieving her child, that would be a 'control' attempt there and if he had been as irrational as it seemed, we might be reading about a mother shot dead. I think she did the right thing, especially knowing what she does about him and his issues.

And yes, alcohol is a very bad thing when one is depressed. I also am hoping he gets the help he needs. I'm also hoping she gets the help she needs as well.
Sarah in Jenison

Novi, MI

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#32
May 1, 2008
 
Reflex wrote:
Wendy - Thanks for being rational about it. Its easy to jump to conclusions on things like this but when it comes down to it nobody really knows what they would do. I do not think the smart thing when he had a firearm pointed at her would have been to insist on retrieving her child, that would be a 'control' attempt there and if he had been as irrational as it seemed, we might be reading about a mother shot dead. I think she did the right thing, especially knowing what she does about him and his issues.
And yes, alcohol is a very bad thing when one is depressed. I also am hoping he gets the help he needs. I'm also hoping she gets the help she needs as well.
I too had to really think about this. It is true - even if she went to get the child and came back downstairs to leave, he would have been MORE upset and heated and take it out on the child.

“...all but 6...UNLESS”

Since: Mar 08

The Merry Ol Land Of Oz

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#33
May 1, 2008
 
Sarah in Jenison wrote:
<quoted text>
Rval2 - Who is the "ALL POWERFUL" Commentator? I say Rob or GR Teacher.
Any guesses?
Well Sarah....let me answer you this way....I haven't seen "Sarah in Jenison" on any threads, yet you seem to know enough about Rob's and GR Teacher's posting techniques to suspect one of them is posting under a different name......Therefore, I must ask, who are you....Exactly???
Grandma

United States

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#34
May 1, 2008
 
You obviously can't tell time. It was 11:30 PM. I should know...I was there at 12AM., and stayed there all night to support her. We all were upset, I couldn't do anything to fix the situation. We also have never dealt with anyone with this type of disorder, so now we are all learning at the expense of his mental health. You obviously probably know my first thoughts as a mother, but now that I've had time to sort things out, there is more here than meets the eye. We have to get him help, and are in the process of doing so.
Wendy wrote:
<quoted text>
Even though the man is the child's father...does not mean there is no imminent danger. Parents do things to hurt their children all the time. The man was drunk and wouldn't let his wife through to get their son. This woman should also be held accountable for the child's danger because she just shrugs it off like it's no big deal. The husband needs to get some serious help. I understand money is tight (lost my job from Electrolux), but no one should be drinking THAT early in the morning! After calling the Police I would have had my husband thrown in jail until he agreed to get some much needed help! My children are MUCH more important to me than a spouse who chooses to drink and could eventually be harmful to one of my children or myself.
Grandma

United States

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#35
May 1, 2008
 
So, to all who think they know it all...shut up until you know the WHOLE story.
Grandpa

Grand Rapids, MI

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#36
May 1, 2008
 
Grandma...Get your fat a.ss back to the basement
iagreeWith Grandma

Warren, MI

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#37
May 1, 2008
 
I agree 1000% Grandma a have seen lisa in action .. She is the one that made him like that but i am not trying to make it sound like i agree with what he did to her. see what Iraq does to people!!!! Thank Bush
Reflex

Bellevue, WA

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#38
May 1, 2008
 
iagreeWithGrandma - If your blaming the victim your crazy. I can't get into specifics, but it certainly has not been her fault.
Schmooze

Amelia Court House, VA

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#39
May 1, 2008
 
Reflex wrote:
No one felt the child was in danger, not the police, not the mother, not the family.
Quote from the WOOD story:
----------
Kent County Sheriff Larry Stelma spoke to 24 Hour News 8 about the decision to bring in so many police in a domestic situation.

"Whenever a weapon is used and whenever there is a child involved and the child remained in the house, this after his mother fled the house, that certainly heightens the concern of the seriousness of the event," he said.
----------
The police most certainly were concerned about the safety of the child. Anyone with any experience in dealing with people who are depressed and on the edge knows how unpredictable these situations can be. There was absolutely no way to know what would have happened that night. He smashed the phones, he had a gun, he was drunk and he was depressed. Was he there for cake and ice cream? This is a classic textbook example of a murder-suicide waiting to happen.
Reflex wrote:
[quote]If No One felt that the child was in danger, Why were the POlice called??? hmmmmmmm[/quote]
Because, as per the article, he had already assaulted the mother and threatened her with a firearm after damaging property. That is a crime, when that occurs you call the police.
If she was afraid of him for her own safety then she should have also been afraid for her child's safety. Why can't you see that if he could do harm to her then there was nothing stopping him from following up with the child as well?
Reflex wrote:
While it is true that he potentially could be a danger to the child, that could be said of anyone at any time. Thats why one has to go by a person's track record, namely the fact that at no point ever in his personal history had he harmed or threatened to harm his child.
There is a first time for everything. Track records mean nothing when it comes to these scenarios where the suspect is behaving in an irrational and unpredictable manner. Nothing.
Commentator wrote:
However, the fact that he had the means to hurt or kill several people, but eventually chose to surrender peacefully indicates he may not be some antisocial lunatic.
Or the positive outcome of this case may be an indication of the distinguished ability of the officer in charge of negotiating with the gunman.
Schmooze

Amelia Court House, VA

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#40
May 1, 2008
 
Commentator wrote:
Your need to condemn him rather than his actions leads me to wonder if you have felt unjustly judged in your life.
Interesting tactic. However, I do not believe that rval was condemning the man in the standoff. She was rather pointing out the mother's poor judgment when she decided to leave her child in the hands of this man who was most certainly unstable at best and homicidal or suicidal at worst.
Commentator wrote:
The fact that you continue to insult and badger Reflex says much about your motivations in this blog. The overall tone of your statements, especially those made toward or in response to Reflex, paint you as somewhat narcisstic and less than insightful.
The fact that Reflex continues to deny that the child was in any danger despite the fact that there was a dangerous man in the home and that the police are quoted as saying that the reason that they called in multiple forces was because there was a child involved is preposterous and that is what has so many on these message boards incredulous and appalled.
jane wrote:
Yes, she left her child in the home, but he was sleeping.
And what would have happened had the child woke up and started crying? That's all that scenario needed. The man was depressed about losing his job, running out of unemployment, has had to adjust to civilian life, was drunk and upset with his child's mother, had smashed the phones, and had a gun and was seriously considering using it. So let's pile on top of that a crying kid. You tell me what the most likely outcome is.

Oh, wait. I know. He had no history of abuse toward the child. The child was in no danger.
Wendy wrote:
Anyone is capable of hurting themselves or others when alcohol and depression mix together.
"Others" must not include the child. At least, that is what I am getting from this stupid forum.

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