think clearly

Marcellus, NY

#102 Feb 6, 2010
Sick of MSF Partial Facts wrote:
Big M is not going to lose any more business than its already lost.
MSF is NOT Big M. Get that thru your skull. It's important. Big M might not be the grocery store that winds up in the new downtown mall. Who knows? Business is business.

As for the point above, you MUST think clearly here.

Lots of people in LF shop at Walmart, because they want silly low made-by-Chinese-child-slave prices. Okay then.

Lots of people in LF shop at Hannaford because they want the deep selection of Hannaford. Okay then.

Lots of people in LF shop at Big M because they want the convenience of a grocery store a couple of blocks away from home. Okay then.

That's THREE DIFFERENT stores with THREE DIFFERENT value propositions.

Build another grocery store at the quarry, and whatever else it is, it is as convenient as Big M. Little Falls can support ONE grocery store, and only ONE. That is the numbers. That is the demographics.

We build a new grocery store, we lose the old one. The jobs are a wash.
Think Bigger

Marcellus, NY

#103 Feb 6, 2010
Sick of MSF Partial Facts wrote:
And why does rebuilding Shoppers Square mean that there will be more jobs than if the quarry project goes through. Again unsupported baseless BS in my opinion. Where's MSF's economic analysis of the rebuild?
That's easy. The quarry mall is currently pegged at two stores: a smallish Price Chopper and a Tractor Supply. That is not many jobs, AND you would LOSE the jobs currently at Shopper's Square. That's a NET LOSS of jobs. The new downtown mall would preserve the current jobs and maybe expand them a bit on the retail side, but you also have to consider the OFFICE JOBS they are looking to get in there. Think big. Think ... say ... call center. It's NOT official yet, though. So take it with a big grain of salt. But no matter what, think big and don't settle for too little. Little Falls deserves better than that.
Private Money

Marcellus, NY

#104 Feb 6, 2010
Used to live there wrote:
And, it is being done totally behind closed doors !?
At this point, it's all private money. And plenty of it. If and when there is a request for incentives, I should certainly hope it is done in public. And the stuff the city did with Sphere was mostly above board ... a few missteps here and there, sure. And Sphere played the city a bit, sure. But the city and county have played this all out in good faith, iyam.
Barking Up Wrong Tree

Marcellus, NY

#105 Feb 6, 2010
Jones Gang wrote:
<quoted text> Who is really trying to make people drink the Koolaid? You people have an all out onslaught trying to brainwash everyone with your so called research on everything. You beat that "blight" word to death.And leave Yogi Berra out of it!
Yogi Berra rocks. Who is YOU PEOPLE? Guess what, pal. You are behind the power curve here. This has moved way past MSF and their whining complaints.
fedupresident

Syracuse, NY

#106 Feb 6, 2010
WHO is going to rebuild shoppers square? the owners of shoppers square or our fine saviors MSF? thats what i want to know.
Paint it

Tully, NY

#107 Feb 6, 2010
Shoppers Square is already urban blight.
The only thing in town any worse are the bombed-out-windowless-paint-pe eling empty warehouses next to Feldmiers.
That whole area is visible from the Wind Bridge and it's the first thing people see when coming from the East. Those building make the whole area look run down. Can't we use our IDA "new sign @ Industrial Park money", and hire a couple guys to paint those buildings? It doesn't even need to be a pro job. It's just got to look good from a quarter mile.

Since: Dec 09

Mohawk

#108 Feb 6, 2010
So there is scuttlebut that Price Chopper is in negotiations with the owners of the Lowe's complex in Herkimer for a store. The water and utilities are there. The property is already developed. The traffic pattern with a light is in place. This sure makes a hell of a lot more sense then dealing with a thoroughly undeveloped quarry and a very inexperienced "developer"
Rumor Has It

Constableville, NY

#109 Feb 6, 2010
SilverRAV4 wrote:
So there is scuttlebut that Price Chopper is in negotiations with the owners of the Lowe's complex in Herkimer for a store. The water and utilities are there. The property is already developed. The traffic pattern with a light is in place. This sure makes a hell of a lot more sense then dealing with a thoroughly undeveloped quarry and a very inexperienced "developer"
It would be nice to see that happen,then the Main Street First people can put their plan into effect.The only thing is I wonder who would come here when everything is in Herkimer?But yes,I too have heard these rumblings and it would not surprise me with all that is going on in LF.
there it is

Gap, PA

#110 Feb 6, 2010
so basically the lesson here is - whine in public, stomp your feet and have a tantrum and you'll get what you want? too bad... this town really needs something like price chopper and I highly doubt all these MSF losers will actually revitalize anything. They should be renamed the roadblock and red tape society since all they seem to want to do is get in the way of good ideas and say no just for the sake of saying no.
Used to live there

Charlotte, NC

#111 Feb 6, 2010
I think the mayor's goals have been laudable.
From my distant vantage point it seems he has attempted to:
Preserve what LF has..........swimming pool)
Reduce municipal expenses.........(garbage)
Increase the tax base..........develop quarry)

It is fashionable to believe that
competition is a great elixir.
It seems MSF doesn't want anything to do with it.
not

Marcellus, NY

#112 Feb 7, 2010
Paint it wrote:
Shoppers Square is already urban blight.
Shoppers Square may be ugly.
Shoppers Square may be obsolete.
But Shoppers Square is working. It has tenants. It pays its taxes.
Shoppers Square is NOT urban blight.
Know what you are talking about before you throw loaded terms around.
Or you look stupid and risk being ignored.
Not So

Marcellus, NY

#115 Feb 7, 2010
Used to live there wrote:
I think the mayor's goals have been laudable.
...
It is fashionable to believe that
competition is a great elixir.
It seems MSF doesn't want anything to do with it.
The mayor's goals have been laudable.
His execution has been spotty.
Free and unchecked competition did so well for us in the 1990s and 2000s: it brought us a tech bubble, a real estate bubble, a credit bubble, wild speculation by banks in derivatives, and the greatest recession since 1932.
But that aside, there is room for ONE grocery store in Little Falls. So it is not a matter of competition. You get one or the other, not both.
With the exception of Moose L., the people in MSF are concerned about preserving the quality of life in Little Falls, and could care less about which grocery store we have in Little Falls. Which ever grocery store YOU want, THEY want to make sure it is located downtown.
And then there is the whole issue of corporate welfare. But everyone has lost sight of that.
Land of the Free

Marcellus, NY

#116 Feb 7, 2010
there it is wrote:
so basically the lesson here is - whine in public, stomp your feet and have a tantrum and you'll get what you want?
The lesson here is that we live in a free country. We have a political system. We have means of seeking redress of perceived wrongs. If you think so poorly of our precious freedoms of association and of speech, may I kindly suggest that you move to an Islamic-fascist nation, where they keep politics a little more tidy and in a neat box? You might like it better.
Another view

United States

#117 Feb 7, 2010
SilverRAV4 wrote:
So there is scuttlebut that Price Chopper is in negotiations with the owners of the Lowe's complex in Herkimer for a store. The water and utilities are there. The property is already developed. The traffic pattern with a light is in place. This sure makes a hell of a lot more sense then dealing with a thoroughly undeveloped quarry and a very inexperienced "developer"
Not in negotiations but certainly have been approach by the Mayor of Herkimer.There's more than one store that wants to come to the Quarry project and the location is a better for them.
Another Side

Constableville, NY

#118 Feb 7, 2010
Another view wrote:
<quoted text>
Not in negotiations but certainly have been approach by the Mayor of Herkimer.There's more than one store that wants to come to the Quarry project and the location is a better for them.
I have heard(been told)that Price Chopper and Lowe's disagree at this point on where to put the store,but everyone seems to like the idea(mayor,political bigwigs,etc).Too bad Little Falls cannot do something.The Sav-a-Lot company may be an option in Shoppers Square,they don't seem to need that big a store.Maybe where the Family Dollar store was.Check it out Mr. Peters and staff,they might come here.
Another thought

United States

#119 Feb 7, 2010
Another Side wrote:
<quoted text> I have heard(been told)that Price Chopper and Lowe's disagree at this point on where to put the store,but everyone seems to like the idea(mayor,political bigwigs,etc).Too bad Little Falls cannot do something.The Sav-a-Lot company may be an option in Shoppers Square,they don't seem to need that big a store.Maybe where the Family Dollar store was.Check it out Mr. Peters and staff,they might come here.
Great idea but Big M would not allowed another grocery store in the plaza. Kelly's wanted to go in the plaza and Bim M said no to the landlord when he suggested it.The city does not own SS's.
I think you are missing the point MSF feels that the city can only accommodate one grocery store and two of them next to each other is not what they are looking for.
No need for the city to look for a grocery to go into SS as we already for now have one in there. If and when Bim M is no longer open I'm sure the landlord will look at many options available to him, for now not necessary.

Since: Jan 10

ishmael.org

#120 Feb 7, 2010
SilverRAV4 wrote:
So there is scuttlebut that Price Chopper is in negotiations with the owners of the Lowe's complex in Herkimer for a store. The water and utilities are there. The property is already developed. The traffic pattern with a light is in place. This sure makes a hell of a lot more sense then dealing with a thoroughly undeveloped quarry and a very inexperienced "developer"
You would put a Price Chopper there to compete with Wallyworld and Hannaford? If you were spending your own money would you do that and what would you hope to gain?
I doubt it.

Since: Jan 10

ishmael.org

#121 Feb 7, 2010
not wrote:
<quoted text>
Shoppers Square may be ugly.
Shoppers Square may be obsolete.
But Shoppers Square is working. It has tenants. It pays its taxes.
Shoppers Square is NOT urban blight.
Know what you are talking about before you throw loaded terms around.
Or you look stupid and risk being ignored.
www.deadmalls.com
It meets this definition of a dead mall.
Not Dead

Marcellus, NY

#122 Feb 7, 2010
lshmaeI wrote:
www.deadmalls.com
It meets this definition of a dead mall.
That is factually incorrect.
Your web-site (which is just some hobbyist's site by the way) defines a deal mall as one having an occupancy rate of 70% or less.
SS has an occupancy rate in the 80s right now.
We know you don't like Shoppers Square. But don't try to bury it because it ain't dead yet. In fact, it was dead in the 1990s, but it came back to life.
Not Quite

Marcellus, NY

#123 Feb 7, 2010
Another thought wrote:
I think you are missing the point MSF feels that the city can only accommodate one grocery store and two of them next to each other is not what they are looking for.
No need for the city to look for a grocery to go into SS as we already for now have one in there. If and when Bim M is no longer open I'm sure the landlord will look at many options available to him, for now not necessary.
Not quite the case.
MSF (and most people who have looked at the numbers) realize the city can support only one grocery store.
MSF is open-minded about which grocery store that is to be. Business is business, after all.
MSF does in fact want the grocery store to be downtown.
If the new mall is built at the quarry, then there is a very good chance that a downtown mall of any sort will be commercially nonviable.
That means that the owner of SS has fewer options.
That means SS probably gets boarded-up.
That means urban blight.
That means a loss of tax revenues.
That means lower property values in the center of the city.
That means damage to the quality of life in LF.
That is why MSF is opposed to the quarry mall.
It's quite simple, really, if you think about it.

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