Bubber supporter

Bronx, NY

#24 Mar 2, 2013
Very nicely put bubber! Perfect arguments and unlike the responses you will get from union scum members...yours includes all truth. Latrobe would be in much better shape if we could get rid of the union jerkoffs.
Redneck

Latrobe, PA

#25 Mar 2, 2013
Bubber supporter wrote:
Very nicely put bubber! Perfect arguments and unlike the responses you will get from union scum members...yours includes all truth. Latrobe would be in much better shape if we could get rid of the union jerkoffs.
Sure, Latrobe would look like the southern plantations before the Civil War. You company ass-kissers make me laugh. You'll critisize and bemoan the guy next door to you because he has the guts to fight for a decent wage but adore and idolize owners and management that would put 3 and 6 year olds back in the mines and mills.

I can understand the anti-union sentiment coming from an owner or a person in upper management, but when it comes from a supposed hourly employee, I have to shake my head and doff my hat to the powers-that-be that have done such a great job convincing the commoner that he/she is much better off trusting the government and company owner with their future standard of living.

What's next...lending them your wives and daughters for a fun night out with them so you can keep your wonderful job? I hope I live to see the day when all unions are gone and then hear the opinion of workers with no rights, protection, or bargaining power. Try going on your own to the boss to get a raise...see how far you get before you hear the laughter. Then consider when your 65, too broke to retire and too old to keep up with a 25 year old...see if they keep you on the same job. By your own criteria, you no longer deserve the job if you can't keep up.

So long sucker...been nice exploiting you all these years. People like you can't see down the road because you're too close to the boss's behind.
Bubber

Slickville, PA

#26 Mar 2, 2013
Redneck, your a tool. Plantations? My wife and daughter? Are you really serious? I'm 38 and had MANY jobs when I was younger. I've worked for "unions". Guess what, the few "union" jobs I've had did nothing. I watched the union reps cozy up with the bosses to avert any disruption and guess what? None of the employees ever saw any benefits from it. To be quite honest, I've gone up to a few bosses to get a raise...and I actually got them. I did it a few months back. And a few years before that. My work ethic and performance far exceeded that of a union rep speaking my case. Maybe you should try WORKING! Unions might work for the uneducated and lazy but in the grand scheme of things, they basically sap any real productivity out of business. You sound like you're playing the liberal "class warfare" bullshit. Yes, companies are always looking at the bottom line and people will be treated unfairly. But you have to live in the REAL world. You're only as valuable as you make yourself...guess that much says it for you, huh? Take care of yourself instead of having someone else take care of you. But I guess that seems to be a MAJOR problem with our country today...too many people wanting the proverbial "mommy and daddy" taking care of you and tucking you in every night...and day...
pro union

Pittsburgh, PA

#27 Mar 2, 2013
Bubber wrote:
Redneck, your a tool. Plantations? My wife and daughter? Are you really serious? I'm 38 and had MANY jobs when I was younger. I've worked for "unions". Guess what, the few "union" jobs I've had did nothing. I watched the union reps cozy up with the bosses to avert any disruption and guess what? None of the employees ever saw any benefits from it. To be quite honest, I've gone up to a few bosses to get a raise...and I actually got them. I did it a few months back. And a few years before that. My work ethic and performance far exceeded that of a union rep speaking my case. Maybe you should try WORKING! Unions might work for the uneducated and lazy but in the grand scheme of things, they basically sap any real productivity out of business. You sound like you're playing the liberal "class warfare" bullshit. Yes, companies are always looking at the bottom line and people will be treated unfairly. But you have to live in the REAL world. You're only as valuable as you make yourself...guess that much says it for you, huh? Take care of yourself instead of having someone else take care of you. But I guess that seems to be a MAJOR problem with our country today...too many people wanting the proverbial "mommy and daddy" taking care of you and tucking you in every night...and day...
I worked in a shop that started cutting back. By the time the lay offs were done I was the only person left to do my job. I worked hard and it showed, started asking for raises, the money was never there for it. But all the owners and bosses showed up with new cars. I now work in a union shop, make a fair wage, and still work as hard as I did at the other job. Not every union shop is full of lazy workers. If I didn't leave the other job I would probably still be making the same wage.
Redneck

Latrobe, PA

#29 Mar 2, 2013
Hey Bubber,

Do you really think that unions were started solely for the sake of better pay? Workers organized to bring some notion of dignity to their lives without being denigrated in order to earn enough to support their families. I guess you think that foreman who picked men from muster lines at the docks never approached workers’ wives for special favors...or else the men didn't get picked for work and got paid nothing. I guess you never heard of workers having to pay a boss part of his earnings or being replaced after years on the job because of injury, illness, or some bosses brother-in-law needed a job. I guess you never heard of entire families living in company houses being thrown out in the street because the husband who worked in the mines got killed on the job.

Just where do you think all the labor laws that protect both children and workers came from...the company?...the government?...God?

What do you think bought about the standard of living that made this country the envy of the world a half century ago...and what has faded away that correlates with the drop in the standard of living today? Any light bulbs coming on...Bubber? If it wasn't for organized labor and collective bargaining, this country would be like a plantation today...and don't think it can't turn back into one. All it takes is for the door to open for one employer to take away worker’s rights that you take for granted...and the rest will follow like falling dominos if they realize a bigger profit can be made. For stockholding companies, they have to follow because it’s their fiduciary responsibility to maximize shareholder value.

I’d like to see the atmosphere in a place that gives more pay to an individual who asks for it because he/she thinks they are better than the rest. Did you do it in private or were you up front with your fellow employees about your self-assessment and reward? Yah…I thought so. You’re 38 now, but you got a long way to go. Do you think you will be so valuable 30 years from now…or will some younger stud go after the boss for some of your pay? Unless you are in business for yourself…you work at the whim of the person who pays you. Let’s see what happens to your pay and workload when the times get tough or the owners want a bigger cut. Let’s see if you are as secure as I am when you get to be my age. And yes, it was a union that got me this standard of living for the work I did. I didn’t sit on my ass either. But I got paid a lot better than you in wages and dignity on the job. I didn’t have to go hat in hand behind other workers to beg for more. If your boss was that good and your work that much better…you shouldn’t have had to ask on your own…should you?
union plus

Irwin, PA

#30 Mar 3, 2013
Bubber wrote:
And while I'm on the subject, "vethead" this is one of the reasons why I can't stand unions...besides the fact that they clog up any semblance of productivity...I have a buddy that started at Verizon right before they went on strike. He had a friend that already had a job there. Well, they went on strike and he had a wife and 2 kids that he had to support. Being a rational human being that had to support his family, he crossed the picket line to actually work, so he could get a paycheck. He was subsequently kicked out of the union but guess what? They still take dues out of his paycheck. For what?! He's no longer a union member. You guys suck the life out of anything that works. This isn't the 1900's anymore. My kids aren't in sweatshops. If you don't like your job, go get another one. I'm BARELY classified by our wonderful government as lower middle class but I know how a business should be run. You people are leeches on society. As long as you get what you feel you deserve, you're happy...f#*@$ng sheep!
You're totally classified as KISSASS
union plus

Irwin, PA

#31 Mar 3, 2013
Bubber wrote:
Redneck, your a tool. Plantations? My wife and daughter? Are you really serious? I'm 38 and had MANY jobs when I was younger. I've worked for "unions". Guess what, the few "union" jobs I've had did nothing. I watched the union reps cozy up with the bosses to avert any disruption and guess what? None of the employees ever saw any benefits from it. To be quite honest, I've gone up to a few bosses to get a raise...and I actually got them. I did it a few months back. And a few years before that. My work ethic and performance far exceeded that of a union rep speaking my case. Maybe you should try WORKING! Unions might work for the uneducated and lazy but in the grand scheme of things, they basically sap any real productivity out of business. You sound like you're playing the liberal "class warfare" bullshit. Yes, companies are always looking at the bottom line and people will be treated unfairly. But you have to live in the REAL world. You're only as valuable as you make yourself...guess that much says it for you, huh? Take care of yourself instead of having someone else take care of you. But I guess that seems to be a MAJOR problem with our country today...too many people wanting the proverbial "mommy and daddy" taking care of you and tucking you in every night...and day...
You"re also a conceited KISSASS!!!!!!!!!!
patch towns company store

Carlisle, PA

#32 Mar 3, 2013
Unions came about to stop child labor, kids working in mines and steel mills, instead fo going to school.

Men who worked in coal mines, lived in company provided (for a rental fee of course), housing, and their families had to shop, on credit, at the too-high priced company store, creating a cycle of debt that the coal miners never got out of.

Unions created a reasonable length of a work day, 8-hours. Do any of you think that men worked only 8-hours a day before unions? that they worked five days a week, before unions?

And, yes, when a man became disabled from an actual injury, he lost his job, he and his family lost their housing and there was nothing for them.

My own grandfather, a coal miner who lived in Dorothy Patch, comittied suicide by hanging, because he was losing his sight and could no longer work, and he didn't want to be a burden to his family.

This coal miner's suicide by hanging was 1935. He had no options to support his family, as a blind disabled men, so he took his own life so that his family did not have the burden of supporting him.

The history of unions is that they began as worthwhile, life-saving, health-saving, childhood saving organizations which created a retirement system and a system of pay so that men could work and earn enough to support their families -- without being dependent on "the company store" and the company-owned housing.

Do any of you know what a serf was, in Europe?

A serf was a slave, bascially, who was permitted a chance to live on a wealthy "noble's" land, and farm and only was permitted to keep enough to barely subsist.

A serf had it better off in mnay ways than pre-union coal miners and steel workers, because at least a serf family had the proise of land for a long period of time.

Entire college-level courses are taught on the hisotry of unions. There are endless academic, scholarly articles to read to learn about unions and their evolution.

I guess, some of you writing are too young to have had a grandparent explain their life story to you, or a great-grandparent explain what their emmigration to the USA was like, and how they lived, dependent, for decades without owning anything, and without having savings.
vethead

Latrobe, PA

#33 Mar 3, 2013
thank you REDNECK& PATCHTOWN COMPANY STORE , for shutting bubber up!!!! or maybe he had to go to work on sunday
union plus

Pittsburgh, PA

#34 Mar 3, 2013
patch towns company store wrote:
Unions came about to stop child labor, kids working in mines and steel mills, instead fo going to school.
Men who worked in coal mines, lived in company provided (for a rental fee of course), housing, and their families had to shop, on credit, at the too-high priced company store, creating a cycle of debt that the coal miners never got out of.
Unions created a reasonable length of a work day, 8-hours. Do any of you think that men worked only 8-hours a day before unions? that they worked five days a week, before unions?
And, yes, when a man became disabled from an actual injury, he lost his job, he and his family lost their housing and there was nothing for them.
My own grandfather, a coal miner who lived in Dorothy Patch, comittied suicide by hanging, because he was losing his sight and could no longer work, and he didn't want to be a burden to his family.
This coal miner's suicide by hanging was 1935. He had no options to support his family, as a blind disabled men, so he took his own life so that his family did not have the burden of supporting him.
The history of unions is that they began as worthwhile, life-saving, health-saving, childhood saving organizations which created a retirement system and a system of pay so that men could work and earn enough to support their families -- without being dependent on "the company store" and the company-owned housing.
Do any of you know what a serf was, in Europe?
A serf was a slave, bascially, who was permitted a chance to live on a wealthy "noble's" land, and farm and only was permitted to keep enough to barely subsist.
A serf had it better off in mnay ways than pre-union coal miners and steel workers, because at least a serf family had the proise of land for a long period of time.
Entire college-level courses are taught on the hisotry of unions. There are endless academic, scholarly articles to read to learn about unions and their evolution.
I guess, some of you writing are too young to have had a grandparent explain their life story to you, or a great-grandparent explain what their emmigration to the USA was like, and how they lived, dependent, for decades without owning anything, and without having savings.
I grew up in a patch town,& still called our store the company store.Pap told me i think he made 16cents a day at one point. can't really remember.Grandparents told me of the hard work & times they had.How they fought for the union.The scabs & bosses
Redneck

Latrobe, PA

#35 Mar 3, 2013
union plus wrote:
<quoted text>I grew up in a patch town,& still called our store the company store.Pap told me i think he made 16cents a day at one point. can't really remember.Grandparents told me of the hard work & times they had.How they fought for the union.The scabs & bosses
Make sure you retell it to your children and their friends. You'll never read about why unions were formed in any textbook or classroom material. All that will be told is that they were corrupt and made the US uncompetitive, just like Bubber tells it. You might also want to explain what a living wage is and how unions made them possible for hourly workers. Even Bubber will never experience one in his lifetime...even with his raises.

Working 80 hours a week at part-time jobs for minimum wage won't get people out of poverty let alone close to a living wage standard of living. But hey...the bosses and owners are doing great because they deserve it...right Bubber?
union plus

Pittsburgh, PA

#36 Mar 3, 2013
Redneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Make sure you retell it to your children and their friends. You'll never read about why unions were formed in any textbook or classroom material. All that will be told is that they were corrupt and made the US uncompetitive, just like Bubber tells it. You might also want to explain what a living wage is and how unions made them possible for hourly workers. Even Bubber will never experience one in his lifetime...even with his raises.
Working 80 hours a week at part-time jobs for minimum wage won't get people out of poverty let alone close to a living wage standard of living. But hey...the bosses and owners are doing great because they deserve it...right Bubber?
All those who fought for the unions gave bubber his REAL WORLD. I think FLUBBER fits him better.
patch towns company store

Carlisle, PA

#37 Mar 3, 2013
[QUOTE who="Redneck] Make sure you retell it to your children and their friends. You'll never read about why unions were formed in any textbook or classroom material. All that will be told is that they were corrupt and made the US uncompetitive, just like Bubber tells it.[/QUOTE]

Redneck, I disagree. Historians will teach the history of unions, accurately. A good history of unions will include a robust beginning, a beginning filled with bloodshed and fear and some deaths -- because men were willing to fight and picket to get what they needed.

Those were the days...

Those were the days -- 100-years-ago.

I also remember my mother telling me about the coal miners strike of roughly 1921, when she and her parents and a few siblings were ousted from Brenizer Patch and were forced to live in tents on the low ground along the river on the way to Blairsville.

Waterr ran through the tents, the tents were cold, and there were guards -- some with bloodied rags on their heads -- and the children were told to behave themsevles, or else the guards would disciplaine them.

After this strike, my maternal grandmother told my maternal grnadother that she "wasn't going to clean one more house owned by another person!(a coal patch home), and somehow they borrowed from a Ukranian Society in Derry and bought their littel farmette in Millwood. Here, they lived a remarkably healthy life with livestock and gardens and orchards...

This grandfather died of Black Lung from working in the poor conditions of the coal mines. He was young when he died at the hospital in Cresson, PA, wehere the coal miners went for evaluation and treatment, Thehy didn't have a chance for recovoery...
Redneck

Latrobe, PA

#38 Mar 4, 2013
patch towns company store wrote:
<quoted text>
Redneck, I disagree. Historians will teach the history of unions, accurately. A good history of unions will include a robust beginning, a beginning filled with bloodshed and fear and some deaths -- because men were willing to fight and picket to get what they needed.
Those were the days...
Those were the days -- 100-years-ago.
I also remember my mother telling me about the coal miners strike of roughly 1921, when she and her parents and a few siblings were ousted from Brenizer Patch and were forced to live in tents on the low ground along the river on the way to Blairsville.
Waterr ran through the tents, the tents were cold, and there were guards -- some with bloodied rags on their heads -- and the children were told to behave themsevles, or else the guards would disciplaine them.
After this strike, my maternal grandmother told my maternal grnadother that she "wasn't going to clean one more house owned by another person!(a coal patch home), and somehow they borrowed from a Ukranian Society in Derry and bought their littel farmette in Millwood. Here, they lived a remarkably healthy life with livestock and gardens and orchards...
This grandfather died of Black Lung from working in the poor conditions of the coal mines. He was young when he died at the hospital in Cresson, PA, wehere the coal miners went for evaluation and treatment, Thehy didn't have a chance for recovoery...
Some unbiased historians might teach it to those wanting to learn about them in a college...but you'll never see a true representation of the reasons for and ultimate influence on workers rights in regular K-12 classes.
patch towns company store

Carlisle, PA

#40 Mar 4, 2013
Redneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Some unbiased historians might teach it to those wanting to learn about them in a college...but you'll never see a true representation of the reasons for and ultimate influence on workers rights in regular K-12 classes.
Well, we all know that those with the lowest SAT scores entering universities graduate with teaching credentials.

Good hisotrians -- look for the good and bad.

Good historians -- look for whose "voice" is missing.

Good historians -- don't try to pretty up or clean up the history; they write the ugly, they tell as many perspectives as they can collect. Then, they can impose their analysis onto those varied tales, but once those tales are told -- the historian's anaylsis becomes the thing to be scrutinized, not the tales -- the hisotry -- themselves.

Are teachers today reporting that unions ruined the American economy? If yes, I'm shocked. That's wrong.

In those same classes, the Walton family should be given equal time for ruining the American economy.

---

The union worthiness is like the marcellus shale problem.

In the past, steel magnates were making more than enough money (up to the 1970s), but they wanted to make more, so they took production oveseas.

Currently, our country has more than enough natural gas and the utility companies are making record high profits; but the desire to make even more money is there, so let's tear up the environment and destroy it, so that the drillers and utitlies can make ridiculous amounts more.

Once the system is destroyed it does not recover: one the steel mill production left the USA, it could not recover. Once the land is polluted, and wildlife killed, etc, there will be no recovery -- and all for a product that we didn't need, because we already had enough of it and at prices that suppliers were profitting wildly from, already.
absent grandfathers

Carlisle, PA

#41 Mar 4, 2013
For those of you too young to know real immigrant coal-miners and steel workers, to to hear their stories, because so much time has pased...

Both my grandfathers were coal miners, who died long before I was born -- because working conditions in the mines was so bad, and their lungs became so damaged.

I bet all of you have had a chance to meet your grandfathers, who've had jobs above ground (at least, eh?), who've had clean work conditions, health care, and a chance to work in healthy conditions.

Unions brought about the improvement in work conditions.

"Out of this Furnace" is a novel aboutu three-generations of Steel Workers, in mills, in the Pittsbrugh area.

For those of you who never had a chance to talk to a grandparent, or an older man in the SW PA area, about working in the mines or mills -- or to the widows of these men -- I suggest that you read the text above.

"Out of this Furnace" is not too long, and it depicts the unhealth, the injuries, the early deaths, the fear, the mindset of the mill workers, and the eventual hopes for the new generation to leave the mills, to have better lives.
Redneck

Latrobe, PA

#42 Mar 4, 2013
An exerpt from Wikipedia: The last line is important to note. Such working conditions and wages will become more likely to be repeated as unions weaken.

Life of a miner

Miners were often dependent upon the company store, a store that miners had to use because they were often paid only in company scrip, redeemable at the store, which often charged higher prices than other stores. Many miner's homes were also owned by the mines. Although there were company towns that raised the prices of all goods and made eviction a constant threat, these conditions were not the norm for all coal towns. But for the towns that did use the currency to their advantage, mining families often faced hardships in living conditions.

Safety and health in the mines

Being a miner in the 19th century meant long hours of continuous hard labor. For many workers, it was not unusual to be accustomed to long hours in the dark mines. Since miners were paid per ton of coal they produced each day workers would arrive as early as possible and stay till they physically were exhausted. Because of working in the mines, many health issues arose. One problem was that a majority of the areas being mined were on average 3–5 feet high. This meant that most miners worked all day unable to stand upright. Because a lot of the coal mines were hard to access by an average man, the demand for young boys to work in the mines grew. More inexperienced miners led to more accidents. Another health concern was the amount of dust that a miner breathed in each day. Now we know that it causes the disease black lung, but then, few miners knew what effects that this job would have on their bodies. Safety was also a big concern, most coal companies wanted to produce the cheapest coal, so in return they would not update or replace old existing tools and carts.] This led to miners becoming injured on a daily basis. However, most companies did not get into conflict over the deaths because miners would typically work alone or in pairs, meaning that an accident would only harm two people and not a large quantity. As mining became more of a demand, the workers started to understand that something could be done to improve the working conditions, and that something must be done soon before any more lives were lost. The health and safety concerns of miners in the early 19th century were what prompted the labor movements to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Work...
coal mining website

Carlisle, PA

#43 Mar 4, 2013
Here's a website that lists almost all of the coal miners, from the first wave of immigration (1880-1920), who worked in mines.

Note that many of the miners are listed as "injured" or "killed" and that type of think.

Search for your grandfather's name, it will probably be there. Although my maternal grandfather is listed for Brenizer, my paternal grandfather, the one who committed suicide by hanging (to keep from being blind and dependent on his family), is not listed for the Dorothy Patch/St. Viccent Shaft mine.

So, even though this is a nice and extensive account of the miners in Westmoreland county, it is not complete.

http://patheoldminer.rootsweb.ancestry.com/in...
Always

Greensburg, PA

#44 Mar 4, 2013
I am taking it that this meeting never happened?
gee

Irwin, PA

#45 Mar 4, 2013
Always wrote:
I am taking it that this meeting never happened?
Meeting over,spouse said they talked production,numbers & other company business.No closings or layoffs.So bubber don't need to start his mouth.

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