Breathe Out

Louisville, KY

#353 Jun 17, 2010
Could someone shed some light on what happened at Icthus last year?
Hurt

United States

#354 Jun 17, 2010
One of my closest friends who has been with me through thick and thin over the years, helped further my walk with Christ, been an encouragement through victory and a sharpening iron through times of struggle, hasn`t spoken to me in almost a year... Ever since she found Jesus for the first time. She believed she wasn`t in Christ before this time. Of course, only God can determine the condition of ones heart, but she was saved before. She confessed with her mouth and believed in her heart that Cjrist was raised from the dead... And even if I`m wrong, even if she was saved for the first time at quest, why is she avoiding me? It breaks my heart every time I think about it. Can one man really make a person doubt their salvation all because they haven`t had a gnostic religious experience?
Breathe Out

Louisville, KY

#355 Jun 18, 2010
[QUOTE who="Hurt"And even if I`m wrong, even if she was saved for the first time at quest, why is she avoiding me? It breaks my heart every time I think about it. Can one man really make a person doubt their salvation all because they haven`t had a gnostic religious experience?[/QUOTE]
I'm so sorry you're friend is being sold this error choked theology. No matter how much you may hear "Questers" try to explain this away, this is a common experience. The sheperding that should follow for her will merely consist your friend will be assigned a Lifegroup "leader" who will serve to regurgitate Pete's take on what the "deal" is, from his "talks", instill an emotional dependance on Quest and question her independant life,thought etc. and an immediate push to "serve" the organization.Your friend is not meaning to avoid you, but she is so wrapped up and busy in keeping the big boat floating in spite of water seeping over the hull, she can't have time for you.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#356 Jun 19, 2010
Another Ex-Quester wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, discussions evolve. This one started with a question about what kind of church Quest is and has gone off in a number of different directions, all of which tie into that original question. In response to a comment by sicko, you claimed that this discussion is speficially about the redemption of Quest, which it is not, and imperiously dismissed sicko's observations of Quest as irrelevant, which they are not.
Your straw-man argument about me wanting the discussion to remain focused on harping about Quest's faults is absurd. I never asserted any such desire: my desire is that people can express themselves without someone trollishly labeling their experiences and feelings as "garbage."
And my desire is that Quest be restored to a position where it truly can fulfill its mission statement, not that it be needlessly injured and ultimately destroyed. Even if what Sicko wrote is true, it reflects the actions, in secret, of a single member (a wife of a leader, not a leadership policy), and as such is an individual sin, not a sin of Quest's corporate body via policy. Every church == hell, every human organization and institution -- has its wayward members; that truth does not mean every organization needs to be smeared by those frailties.

I've cited several times the issues that I'm convinced Quest needs to address in order to fulfill its self-proclaimed mission: a real system of governance to ensure leadership accountability, including a revamping of the board of elders; a re-evaluation of some of its approaches to evangelism, including repentance from taking verses out of context; a true program of discipleship that includes formal opportunities for Bible study; financial transparency that makes its full, item-by-item budget available to Questers; an acknowledgement from Pete and Sharon of their hypocrisy (either intentional or inadvertent) regarding their advocacy of Questers to downsize their lifestyles while Pete and Sharon both built $300K houses (during the start of I2); etc.

These discussion boards can be of great value by airing important issues and generating conversation that can achieve results. They can also do great harm, injuries that are inflicted accidentally or intentionally. The kind of statement made by Sicko can be interpreted, by those unfamiliar with Quest, as reflecting a major malady at Quest, rather than an isolated situation. Sicko's remarks would be best aired out of an open forum. These statements also provide Quest's leaders with excuses for disregarding the relevance of this entire discussion, giving them the impetus to continue down their path of error, injury and unbiblical community.

If you view that as "imperious," well, so be it. I view it as a responsible approach to conversation.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#357 Jun 19, 2010
Breathe Out wrote:
Could someone shed some light on what happened at Icthus last year?
Sure. Last year, Pete Hise was tapped by Ichthus to give the final talk of the festival, during which he would lead communion and offer an altar call. At the end of the talk, a large number of people responded and gave their lives to Christ. It truly was awesome.

However, Pete and the Quest worship band and worship arts team pretty much performed a "coup de tat" (spelling?) during his time on the stage. They were allotted a certain timeframe; they ran far over and disrupted the festival organizers' schedules, affecting whether booked bands could perform.

As bad was what happened later. In a desire to identify how many people came to Christ that night, Quest staffers counted the number of people standing (in photographs taken from the stage) as those who were saved.(If you're familiar with Ichthus, you know that a large number of people are generally standing through talks and performances, so Quest's numbers were doomed to be distortions.) Worse, it's my understanding that the staffers presumed more people, not shown in the photos, were standing out of camera range and extrapolated that, in all, 4,000 people were saved as a result of Pete's talk.

4,000 people. That means that more than 20 percent of the people who attended the festival were saved. Come on.

Quest then added those numbers to the number Quest's leaders say have been saved at Quest since 1999, when the church opened. It claimed that "10,000 people have been brought to Christ through the ministry of QCC." Quest has been effective in much of its ministry; there's no need for it to exaggerate its impact. Yet it does, and Quest -- which has advertised its annual festival Questapalooza at Ichthus in 2008 and 2009 -- has been virtually invisible at the festival this year. Word is Ichthus's organizers were amazed and disenchanted by Quest's actions both at and after the 2009 festival.
Another Ex-Quester

New Richmond, OH

#358 Jun 19, 2010
Ex-Quester wrote:
<quoted text>
...

If you view that as "imperious," well, so be it. I view it as a responsible approach to conversation.
I honestly can't tell if misrepresenting other people's comments comes naturally to you or if you go out of your way to twist what people say. You called sicko's comments "garbage" because you didn't like what this person wrote, and because you felt it shouldn't have been done in a public forum. Whether a public forum was the appropriate place for what sicko had to say is debatable, but your response was uncivil and insulting. Moreover, you declared that the discussion is specifically "aimed at bringing a church to repentance," which it is not. It's actually a public forum where people can discuss what kind of church they feel Quest is: what they've experienced, witnessed, and felt, good or bad. It's open and diverse, and can go in any number of directions. I do think it's imperious to pass judgment on the validity of other people's experiences and to try to act as if what you want to discuss is what the discussion is actually focused upon. That's what I was referring to as imperious, and I think you know that.

On a previous page, you were sarcastic and condescending towards Lost because that person appeared to have been posting from out of state and you didn't like what that person had to say: "Wow, Lost! I'm really sorry you're not going to commute from Anderson, South Carolina, to this church (or any church) in Lexington, Kentucky! Maybe you should just go to Perry Noble's church there in Anderson..." When fyi called you out on giving Lost a hard time, you wrote, "fyi, I've just gone back and looked at the 'hard time' I'd given someone else -- or you -- when they posted from Anderson, SC. This is what I said:'Welcome to the discussion. It's nice to see someone from Perry Noble's area showing interest...'." It's obvious fyi was referring to your recent, belligerent post. You knew that but tried to play innocent.

This is a tiresome pattern.

You've sometimes displayed a tendency to be rude to people when you don't like what they post. Then if anyone calls you out on your behavior, you misrepresent their criticisms and snidely dismiss them with a phony "Who, me?" attitude. It's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and deeply ironic coming from someone who wants to preach about repentance and salvation.

There's nothing responsible about your tactics.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#359 Jun 20, 2010
Another Ex-Quester wrote:
<quoted text>
I honestly can't tell if misrepresenting other people's comments comes naturally to you or if you go out of your way to twist what people say. You called sicko's comments "garbage" because you didn't like what this person wrote, and because you felt it shouldn't have been done in a public forum. Whether a public forum was the appropriate place for what sicko had to say is debatable, but your response was uncivil and insulting. Moreover, you declared that the discussion is specifically "aimed at bringing a church to repentance," which it is not. It's actually a public forum where people can discuss what kind of church they feel Quest is: what they've experienced, witnessed, and felt, good or bad. It's open and diverse, and can go in any number of directions. I do think it's imperious to pass judgment on the validity of other people's experiences and to try to act as if what you want to discuss is what the discussion is actually focused upon. That's what I was referring to as imperious, and I think you know that.
On a previous page, you were sarcastic and condescending towards Lost because that person appeared to have been posting from out of state and you didn't like what that person had to say: "Wow, Lost! I'm really sorry you're not going to commute from Anderson, South Carolina, to this church (or any church) in Lexington, Kentucky! Maybe you should just go to Perry Noble's church there in Anderson..." When fyi called you out on giving Lost a hard time, you wrote, "fyi, I've just gone back and looked at the 'hard time' I'd given someone else -- or you -- when they posted from Anderson, SC. This is what I said:'Welcome to the discussion. It's nice to see someone from Perry Noble's area showing interest...'." It's obvious fyi was referring to your recent, belligerent post. You knew that but tried to play innocent.
This is a tiresome pattern.
You've sometimes displayed a tendency to be rude to people when you don't like what they post. Then if anyone calls you out on your behavior, you misrepresent their criticisms and snidely dismiss them with a phony "Who, me?" attitude. It's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and deeply ironic coming from someone who wants to preach about repentance and salvation.
There's nothing responsible about your tactics.
Speaking of tiresome: Your entire post misrepresents me. You also don't understand the context of that conversation (the one with fyi). I'll explain: The post from Anderson, S.C., came during the period a few weeks before Quest's Uprising conference, when Quest was attempting to attract people to the conference. Perry Noble, whose church is in Anderson, was a speaker at the conference, and is known to be a friend of Pete's. In the run-up to The Uprising, Questers and Quest leaders had taken note of the discussion and were attempting to mitigate the criticisms herein. I cannot prove what suddenly spurred interest from Anderson; I can make inferences; but I'll choose not to express those inferences here, for precisely the reasons I've cited before: it would be gossip to do so. The same thing, I feel, was going on with Lost, another non-area poster in this discussion but who was attempting to devalue the criticism offered by those of us who live here and who have attended Quest.
Go back and read the post that I referenced to fyi; you'll see that I quoted it exactly as I wrote it.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#360 Jun 20, 2010
More response to Another Ex-Quester: I find it interesting that you want to pull this discussion into an area involving whether or not you find my personality to be agreeable. You don't refer to the substance of my criticisms of Quest and my suggested approaches to correct the church's issues. You simply make ad hominem attacks.(My description of the post that prompted this sidetrip was "garbage." It did not refer to the poster. Then again, I apologize to Sicko if he/she considered my description of her post as hurtful."

Another Ex-Quester, do you have any ideas on ways to help Quest overcome the issues that keep forcing people to leave? Or perhaps you're not so much "Another Ex-Quester" so much as a Quester attempting to subvert this discussion. No matter.

So, from now on, when you criticize me, my response will be simple: to repeat the list of issues I've cited several times before. In fact, it's time to post them again in order to keep them fresh in the minds of Quest's leaders...
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#361 Jun 20, 2010
&#61550; The financial integrity of the church: In November 2009 – 18 months into Imagine 2 and two months after the new building opened – Quest’s leaders announced to the congregation that the church had obtained the loan it needed. The pastors did not announce the amount of the loan. Fayette County Clerk’s Office records show the loan was for $13.5 million. At that same time, Quest was saying it had collected between 31 to 33 percent of the pledges; that would be about $4.2 million of $12.6 million. If they had paid on the building costs, that would mean there was about $8 million still outstanding. Why was the loan for $5.5 million more?(There may be legitimate answers to these questions, but, as exemplified by truthinlight’s post above, there’s no need for Questers to ask the questions.)
&#61550; The secrecy in the church: Why does Quest’s leadership hold the church’s budget and financial statements so close to their vest? Quest is not a private business, but it conducts itself as though it is. Questers are not permitted to know how much the pastoral staff and regular staff are paid in salaries and bonuses. They are not permitted to know how much money is being disbursed for individual ministries and missions support. Questers have not been told the exact cost of the new building – either the original estimate or the final costs, and how the final cost was influenced by design and construction changes (or how those design and construction changes differed from the original design). They don’t even know the monthly cost of maintaining the building.

This is important because while Quest’s leaders encourage Questers to trust them, several New Testament passages (that are never mentioned from the pulpit) tell us that believers must hold their leaders accountable. The church’s current structure guarantees there will be no leadership-to-Quester accountability.

(Update: Quest is now attempting to issue bonds to raise $9+ million, apparently to make up for the shortfall in I2 commitment payments. I'm not sure how Pete expects people to afford the bonds when they apparently are unable to meet their I2 payments.)
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#362 Jun 20, 2010
Ex-Quester wrote:
More response to Another Ex-Quester:...
So, from now on, when you criticize me, my response will be simple: to repeat the list of issues I've cited several times before. In fact, it's time to post them again in order to keep them fresh in the minds of Quest's leaders...
The reason I'll respond in this way is because I'm not going to allow Another Ex-Quester to distract me for the reasons I'm posting here. He/she is free to criticize me as much as he/she wishes. I am also free to choose not to become defensive. I'll maintain my focus on what I regard as the issues that confront Quest.
Another Ex-Quester

New Richmond, OH

#363 Jun 21, 2010
Ex-Quester, I've been grateful for your observations about the financial issues at Quest. I've appreciated your thoroughness with all of that and in fact my choice of screen name was inspired by yours because I appreciated so many of your earlier comments.

At no point have I engaged in ad hominem attacks on you. I have not attacked you personally so as to suggest your previous observations have been invalid. I've been critical of some of your behavior towards other posters, of the tone you have taken and how you react when people object, but not of you as a person. You're certainly not obliged to do anything about what I've pointed out or change how you relate to people, but it was something I had to get off my chest because of my own frustration and disappointment.

I stand by my comments about the incident with fyi. You didn't like Lost's remarks so you were snide and sarcastic towards that person. fyi called you out on your sarcastic post. You pretended like that had never happened and quoted an older post of yours with a completely different tone. You're trying that again. I've actually read this entire thread, so I know the context and I knew it when I wrote my previous post. Even if someone tries to devalue or undermine the discussion, it's no reason to be rude and there was no reason to ignore the substance of fyi's critique.

You've made a lot of great contributions to this thread but being rude and sarcastic to other posters is not helpful and undermines the good ideas you have.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#364 Jun 21, 2010
Another Ex-Quester wrote:
I stand by my comments about the incident with fyi. You didn't like Lost's remarks so you were snide and sarcastic towards that person. fyi called you out on your sarcastic post. You pretended like that had never happened and quoted an older post of yours with a completely different tone. You're trying that again.
And I stand by my comments to Lost and FYI. And I reassert the explanation for why I made them.

But, to anyone in this discussion who feels that I have insulted or belittled them, I sincerely apologize.
Ex-Quester

Jeffersonville, IN

#365 Jun 21, 2010
Another Ex-Quester, I ask a favor: Please tell me the page numbers and post numbers of my offending posts. I'll review and consider.

Thanks.
Wtf

Franklin, OH

#366 Jun 21, 2010
Breathe Out wrote:
Could someone shed some light on what happened at Icthus last year?
it rained really hard
Give Jesus a Shot

Helena, AL

#367 Jun 23, 2010
Wow. I've been a Christ-follower for almost 30 years and it saddens me to read this thread. The body of Christ attacking itself...and in an anonymous forum. It's as if this is a grace-free zone. It breaks my heart for people to discover so much venom here from people who call themselves by His name.

If you're a seeker or someone trying to find their way back to God, please give Jesus a shot. Heck, give Quest a shot. It's not perfect, but it's the most Jesus-centric place I've ever known.(Try listening to one of Quest's talks on Days & Nights with Jesus to see what I mean.)

Christians - we can do better. Peter (who made his share of mistakes along the way) had this to say in 1 Peter 1:22 - "Now you can have sincere love for each other as brothers and sisters because you were cleansed from your sins when you accepted the truth of the Good News. So see to it that you really do love each other intensely with all your hearts."

I gotta say - from what I see, this forum is pretty intense, but most of it isn't on the side of loving each other intensely.

Grace in Christ.
sicko

Morehead, KY

#368 Jun 23, 2010
I'm sorry that Quest is the most Jesus-centric place you've ever known. That saddens my heart.

Prayers for all.(including me)
Give Jesus a Shot wrote:
Wow. I've been a Christ-follower for almost 30 years and it saddens me to read this thread. The body of Christ attacking itself...and in an anonymous forum. It's as if this is a grace-free zone. It breaks my heart for people to discover so much venom here from people who call themselves by His name.
If you're a seeker or someone trying to find their way back to God, please give Jesus a shot. Heck, give Quest a shot. It's not perfect, but it's the most Jesus-centric place I've ever known.(Try listening to one of Quest's talks on Days & Nights with Jesus to see what I mean.)
Christians - we can do better. Peter (who made his share of mistakes along the way) had this to say in 1 Peter 1:22 - "Now you can have sincere love for each other as brothers and sisters because you were cleansed from your sins when you accepted the truth of the Good News. So see to it that you really do love each other intensely with all your hearts."
I gotta say - from what I see, this forum is pretty intense, but most of it isn't on the side of loving each other intensely.
Grace in Christ.
Questaloozer

Lexington, KY

#369 Jun 24, 2010
"Give Jesus a Shot" wrote:

"Wow. I've been a Christ-follower for almost 30 years and it saddens me to read this thread. The body of Christ attacking itself...and in an anonymous forum. It's as if this is a grace-free zone. It breaks my heart for people to discover so much venom here from people who call themselves by His name."

I agree it also breaks my heart to discover so much venom in this forum. Might give one pause to try and understand where all that venom (some might call it anger) comes from.

Many posting here are people who have been hurt by Quest and our anger (my word for venom) comes from what we have experienced inside Quest; many times at the hands of those we were asked to trust without question. Others have attended and found that it is a place of secrets (mostly with money), a controlling environment, and a ‘my way or the highway’ leadership style. Still others have a friend that attends or has attended.

When I left, I found that my story is not unique, far from it. Many others have the same story with Quest and it is eerily similar. If you question a leader or a leadership decision and you are branded as someone in ‘disunity’(let the guilt begin!). Your Life Group is not your Life Group it belongs to “The Curriculum” and one must have permission to deviate from that. There is anger and hurt that follows that type of treatment, and it takes a while to heal.

Many of us can’t afford a therapist to talk with and to cope with alcohol or drugs does not seem to be the road I want to go down… again. So we post on the net… because almost a year ago ‘Waffle’ asked “I was wondering what kind of church Quest is? I'm thinking of going.” And apparently 355+ people decided to answer that question... be careful what you ask for!
Breathe Out

Louisville, KY

#370 Jun 28, 2010
Questaloozer (although you write with intelligence and are certainly not a loser ; ): thanks for an excellent wrap-up of many many posts on this forum. There is much frustration and anger from many folks, because of sadness to see what damage a part of Quest leadership has done to such a unique and special place for some of Christ's body to worship and celebrate. It's a waste of time to argue semantics between posters..that takes the attention off the main issue. It IS time to get together and pray for this part of the body..putting main leaders in God's hands ( let God handle the chips when they fall- as I believe they will )and for the true freedom from Quester "thought slavery"for the innocent folks still there..just a thought
Friend of Quester

Lawrenceburg, KY

#371 Jun 28, 2010
Very interesting thread... I've enjoyed reading.

I don't have much to add to what has already been said; I just want to give my own thoughts. I attended a Quest service about a month ago, with a friend from work who is a member and who had been asking me to attend with her. I found the service entertaining and that is just about all I got out of it. Overall, I can't bring myself to trust such a large, commercial appearing church that has its own bookstore and coffee shop. It just screams "PROFIT FOR US!!! Woohoo!!! We're making lots of money!"

In addition, I swear I've never met a more brainwashed-appearing person, as my coworker. She is full of the latest Quest-isms, as you call them. Her facebook statuses are constant "I love Jesus! Jesus is my healer! Hooray for Jesus! I am all yours, Jesus! I am broken hearted for Jesus!" Really? How about "I rotated my tires today", or something halfway down to earth?

Okay, I'm not saying that Quest has anything to do with my friends' fanaticism; I've met plenty in my life who are like her and I know better. I've also met plenty of good, wonderful, God-fearing Christians who don't feel like they have to constantly wear it on their sleeves and then subsequently shove it down your throat.

But... back to my own personal opinion of Quest. I found the service that I attended to be horribly devoid of any type of biblical teaching, of any type of theological intelligence... I found it to be full of "We accept everyone! Bring your friends to Quest! Woo hoo! We're having a party here and we want everyone to come and celebrate Jesus with us!" Very shallow. I strongly agree with the person who said that Quest may be a good starting point for someone who does not know Jesus at all... it's a "beginners" church. For someone who wants a deeper knowledge and relationship of both Christ and the Bible... move on.
Friend of Quester

Lawrenceburg, KY

#372 Jun 28, 2010
Wanted to add something else...

The church that I grew up attending, a Baptist church, had weekly Budget meetings and actually passed out sheets of paper with the churches' budget and what it was spending on what, spelled out right there for everyone to read.

I thought every church did this, until now? I thought that it was every church members' right to know where the money that they are giving, is going.

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