Calif. School Sued Over 'Intelligent Design'

Full story: WCCO 101
FRESNO, Calif. A rural high school teaching a religion-based alternative to evolution was sued Tuesday by a group of parents who said the class should be stopped because it violates the U.S. Constitution. Full Story
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Stacey Light

United States

#1 Jan 14, 2006
I find your school district honorable to offer this "ELECTIVE" course to your students. I had NO CHOICE in high school, as Darwinism was CRAMMED into my head. The fact that a few find this offensive should be reminded, if they do not believe in God, they should then be expected to work on Sunday, not have an Easter Break, not have a Christmas break, and should voice their opinions in the windows of their offices and business, so that those of us who have EVOLVED past their ignorance can choose to pass by and not contribute to their livelihood. Please remind them, they too, are free to Home Schooling and the private school of DARWINISM, if one exists. I certainly can see the resemblence of the opponents to elective and how they resemble the thoughts of an ape. Another thing, perhaps they should use their own currency, because mine doesn't say "In DARWIN we trust"
Tate Donovan

United States

#2 Jan 15, 2006
I could not agree with Stacey more. This country was founded on God, you are simply offering an elective. With the majority of California's demographics is Hispanic, it would be like making English an elective right along with Spanish, French, German, etc.
Bucephalas

Saint Paul, MN

#3 Jan 30, 2006
That's funny, I thought this country was founded on religious freedom. Shoving your jesus crap up my a** doesn't seem to be in keeping with this. Keep it to yourself, and out of my classroom. All of this ID crap is simply a means of getting religion into science classrooms through an unguarded backdoor (which I guess again brings to mind the image of shoving .... forget it.....)
Tate Donovan wrote:
I could not agree with Stacey more. This country was founded on God, you are simply offering an elective. With the majority of California's demographics is Hispanic, it would be like making English an elective right along with Spanish, French, German, etc.
parent of four

Somerville, MA

#4 Jan 31, 2006
No one ever said you or your children had to take the class, that's why it is called an ELECTIVE.

If everyone thought like you, we would be living in the pre-civil war era.

Everyone has the right to their beliefs and some children have not had the opportunity to know what their beleifs are because their parents don't allow them the freedom to explore other avenues.
Bucephalas

Saint Paul, MN

#5 Jan 31, 2006
MY beliefs send us back to pre-Civil war? That's funny, except that you probably believe what you are saying.

Let's be honest about educating our children. Religion is hugely guilty of indoctrination, not true education. Science is far more open and honest.
parent of four wrote:
No one ever said you or your children had to take the class, that's why it is called an ELECTIVE.

If everyone thought like you, we would be living in the pre-civil war era.

Everyone has the right to their beliefs and some children have not had the opportunity to know what their beleifs are because their parents don't allow them the freedom to explore other avenues.

Since: Dec 05

Palo Alto, CA

#6 Feb 2, 2006
LOL, a majority of the world and the united states accepts that evolution is a valid scientific theory, not "a few" as you put it. If you base who you give your business to on their scientific beliefs, I think you have a lot more issues to deal with then not believing in evolution.
Stacey Light wrote:
I find your school district honorable to offer this "ELECTIVE" course to your students. I had NO CHOICE in high school, as Darwinism was CRAMMED into my head. The fact that a few find this offensive should be reminded, if they do not believe in God, they should then be expected to work on Sunday, not have an Easter Break, not have a Christmas break, and should voice their opinions in the windows of their offices and business, so that those of us who have EVOLVED past their ignorance can choose to pass by and not contribute to their livelihood. Please remind them, they too, are free to Home Schooling and the private school of DARWINISM, if one exists. I certainly can see the resemblence of the opponents to elective and how they resemble the thoughts of an ape. Another thing, perhaps they should use their own currency, because mine doesn't say "In DARWIN we trust"
Just

Roy, UT

#7 Feb 2, 2006
Stacey Light wrote:
I find your school district honorable to offer this "ELECTIVE" course to your students. I had NO CHOICE in high school, as Darwinism was CRAMMED into my head. The fact that a few find this offensive should be reminded, if they do not believe in God, they should then be expected to work on Sunday, not have an Easter Break, not have a Christmas break, and should voice their opinions in the windows of their offices and business, so that those of us who have EVOLVED past their ignorance can choose to pass by and not contribute to their livelihood. Please remind them, they too, are free to Home Schooling and the private school of DARWINISM, if one exists. I certainly can see the resemblence of the opponents to elective and how they resemble the thoughts of an ape. Another thing, perhaps they should use their own currency, because mine doesn't say "In DARWIN we trust"
Well, let's see. Us working stiffs actually do work on Sundays regardless of faith. I've worked over Easter. I've never had to work over Christmas because nothing is open. I've had religion crammed down my brain since I was old enough to think. You're blind to the follies of your own faith because you think it's good. Therefore, anything not faith isn't good. But heck, if you don't want an education, nobody MADE YOU GO TO SCHOOL. It's tough cookies if you believe the south won the civil war. What you learn is not your choice (ask any high schooler), what you believe is your choice. From the sound of your argument, you haven't given this much thought outside of chuch. I'll bet you think atheism ought to be outlawed, too.
Bucephalas

Saint Paul, MN

#8 Feb 2, 2006
Three points here:
1. Endorsement of any particular religion by a public school is unlawful, as well as a bad idea. Offering this class, even as an elective, can be perceived by a reasonable person as an endorsement of christianity, mainly because this is exactly what they are trying to do.
2. Schools have an obligation to convey factual information to the best of their ability, and to take pains not to convey false or misleading information. Teaching a course that offers "alternatives to evolution" implies that the instructors have an actual scientific understanding of evolution. Failing to include an instructor actually educated in evolutionary biology in this course is irresponsible, and indicates a failure of the school to responsibly educate.
3. Nobody is saying that religion is evil, or that it cannot be taught. One simply cannot pretend that religion is science and teach it as such. As "intelligent design" claims to be science (though it very clearly is not), teaching it at all is problematic, unless it is made clear that their claims that this is science are fallacious.
Stacey Light wrote:
I find your school district honorable to offer this "ELECTIVE" course to your students. I had NO CHOICE in high school, as Darwinism was CRAMMED into my head. The fact that a few find this offensive should be reminded, if they do not believe in God, they should then be expected to work on Sunday, not have an Easter Break, not have a Christmas break, and should voice their opinions in the windows of their offices and business, so that those of us who have EVOLVED past their ignorance can choose to pass by and not contribute to their livelihood. Please remind them, they too, are free to Home Schooling and the private school of DARWINISM, if one exists. I certainly can see the resemblence of the opponents to elective and how they resemble the thoughts of an ape. Another thing, perhaps they should use their own currency, because mine doesn't say "In DARWIN we trust"
LCBoliou

Since: Jan 06

Richland, WA

#9 Feb 2, 2006
parent of four wrote:
No one ever said you or your children had to take the class, that's why it is called an ELECTIVE.

If everyone thought like you, we would be living in the pre-civil war era.

Everyone has the right to their beliefs and some children have not had the opportunity to know what their beleifs are because their parents don't allow them the freedom to explore other avenues.
Fine parent of four. You pay for the schooling of your children, and don't use tax funds to do so, then I will agree with you.

You display the same form of philosophical confusion that most Americans suffer from; the inability to distinguish between private and public!
LCBoliou

Since: Jan 06

Richland, WA

#10 Feb 2, 2006
Stacey Light wrote:
I find your school district honorable to offer this "ELECTIVE" course to your students. I had NO CHOICE in high school, as Darwinism was CRAMMED into my head. The fact that a few find this offensive should be reminded, if they do not believe in God, they should then be expected to work on Sunday, not have an Easter Break, not have a Christmas break, and should voice their opinions in the windows of their offices and business, so that those of us who have EVOLVED past their ignorance can choose to pass by and not contribute to their livelihood. Please remind them, they too, are free to Home Schooling and the private school of DARWINISM, if one exists. I certainly can see the resemblence of the opponents to elective and how they resemble the thoughts of an ape. Another thing, perhaps they should use their own currency, because mine doesn't say "In DARWIN we trust"
Boy Stacey "Light" is right! Why don't you form a primitive rant against physics while you're about it -- since the laws of physics support a universal process of evolution.
Second Thoughts

Oro Grande, CA

#11 Feb 7, 2006
newt wrote:
LOL, a majority of the world and the united states accepts that evolution is a valid scientific theory, not "a few" as you put it. If you base who you give your business to on their scientific beliefs, I think you have a lot more issues to deal with then not believing in evolution.

<quoted text>
Dang!!! This argument, I'm sure, was used against Stokes.

Well, we need to stop prosecuting the kids who blow away their peers. There just exercising their survival of the fittest. After all, it's what we, as a society, teach them in our schools. That's what evolution is all about. We can't teach them it's true, then punish them for believing it and acting upon it. All the while dismiss teaching the sanctity of life then expect them to honor it.

We need to stop living in opposite world.
Second Thoughts

Oro Grande, CA

#12 Feb 7, 2006
Bucephalas wrote:
Three points here:
1. Endorsement of any particular religion by a public school is unlawful, as well as a bad idea. Offering this class, even as an elective, can be perceived by a reasonable person as an endorsement of christianity, mainly because this is exactly what they are trying to do.
Unless it's a state endorsed and sanctioned religion...secular humanism (i.e. evolution)
Bucephalas wrote:
2. Schools have an obligation to convey factual information to the best of their ability, and to take pains not to convey false or misleading information. Teaching a course that offers "alternatives to evolution" implies that the instructors have an actual scientific understanding of evolution. Failing to include an instructor actually educated in evolutionary biology in this course is irresponsible, and indicates a failure of the school to responsibly educate.
Why isn't the opposite just as true? I don't see many instructors who belittle religion have an understanding of religion or are educated in it. Would this be irresponsibly educating? Of course not...we're living in hypocrisyland.
Bucephalas wrote:
3. Nobody is saying that religion is evil, or that it cannot be taught. One simply cannot pretend that religion is science and teach it as such. As "intelligent design" claims to be science (though it very clearly is not), teaching it at all is problematic, unless it is made clear that their claims that this is science are fallacious.
<quoted text>
There are many areas in "religion" that are scientifically backed up by so called science. But, alas, many on these posting boards are so indoctrinated by anti religious overtones that they don't know what they are, or don't care that they're out there, or both. science is their god and they won't hear of anything that may call their god into question. It's amazing how many "free thinkers" think alike and won't allow any opposing viewpoints in their thinking. Then they accuse the religious of being closed-minded.
Tate Donovan

United States

#13 Feb 12, 2006
No, atheism shouldn't be outlawed, if it were, there would be no California ! Or whatever backwood pudunk town you are from. Get a college education, you could then count to twenty with out using your fingers and toes.
Just wrote:
<quoted text>

Well, let's see. Us working stiffs actually do work on Sundays regardless of faith. I've worked over Easter. I've never had to work over Christmas because nothing is open. I've had religion crammed down my brain since I was old enough to think. You're blind to the follies of your own faith because you think it's good. Therefore, anything not faith isn't good. But heck, if you don't want an education, nobody MADE YOU GO TO SCHOOL. It's tough cookies if you believe the south won the civil war. What you learn is not your choice (ask any high schooler), what you believe is your choice. From the sound of your argument, you haven't given this much thought outside of chuch. I'll bet you think atheism ought to be outlawed, too.
Tate Donovan

United States

#14 Feb 12, 2006
I give up on all of you future politicians (of what country, I'm not sure). Perhaps Austria, since we have an Austrian running California. But then again, maybe he's just "acting"; still not award winning !
Tate Donovan

United States

#15 Feb 12, 2006
I am not sure which side of the debate you are for, as I stated it should be an elective and not mandotory study. I would only like to see it offered. Theology in general is offered in some states as an elective and it gives students another avenue of choice when it comes to their carreer. I mean face it, we could use a few more people of faith...in any religion out there.
parent of four wrote:
No one ever said you or your children had to take the class, that's why it is called an ELECTIVE.

If everyone thought like you, we would be living in the pre-civil war era.

Everyone has the right to their beliefs and some children have not had the opportunity to know what their beleifs are because their parents don't allow them the freedom to explore other avenues.
Tate Donovan

United States

#16 Feb 12, 2006
Please make a fourth point, that being why does our currency say "IN GOD WE TRUST" ? You failed to touch on that one, my dear opposing friend.
Bucephalas wrote:
Three points here:
1. Endorsement of any particular religion by a public school is unlawful, as well as a bad idea. Offering this class, even as an elective, can be perceived by a reasonable person as an endorsement of christianity, mainly because this is exactly what they are trying to do.
2. Schools have an obligation to convey factual information to the best of their ability, and to take pains not to convey false or misleading information. Teaching a course that offers "alternatives to evolution" implies that the instructors have an actual scientific understanding of evolution. Failing to include an instructor actually educated in evolutionary biology in this course is irresponsible, and indicates a failure of the school to responsibly educate.
3. Nobody is saying that religion is evil, or that it cannot be taught. One simply cannot pretend that religion is science and teach it as such. As "intelligent design" claims to be science (though it very clearly is not), teaching it at all is problematic, unless it is made clear that their claims that this is science are fallacious.

<quoted text>
Tate Donovan

United States

#17 Feb 12, 2006
Here's a take on my original topic. If you are a scientist, true in his (P/C) her beliefs. I offer you three simple things to prove us that not only believe in Darwinism, but believe a HIGHER BEING had to help in the "design" of human life as we know it now. Because, I've heard tale, and have experienced all three of the following. I would like a scientific reason why we as evolved creatures feel the following:

Faith
Hope
Love

Take your time, as I'm sure there isn't a textbook readily available for you. But let me, let you, in on a secret, check the BIBLE. The answers there.... I feel like I'm teaching 1st grade again.
Stacey Light

United States

#19 Feb 23, 2006
I see I am the last one to speak within a timely manner on this debate. Therefore, I win !!! Gee, I wonder if an intellegent designer helped me get my way.....JUST LIKE AMERICA'S MONEY SAYS.... "GOD BLESS AMERICA" !
Darwins Stepchild

AOL

#20 Feb 25, 2006
Tate Donovan wrote:
Here's a take on my original topic. If you are a scientist, true in his (P/C) her beliefs. I offer you three simple things to prove us that not only believe in Darwinism, but believe a HIGHER BEING had to help in the "design" of human life as we know it now. Because, I've heard tale, and have experienced all three of the following. I would like a scientific reason why we as evolved creatures feel the following:

Faith
Hope
Love

Take your time, as I'm sure there isn't a textbook readily available for you. But let me, let you, in on a secret, check the BIBLE. The answers there.... I feel like I'm teaching 1st grade again.
Ok...I'm willing to take this on...

In reverse order...

LOVE...We are social creatures, as are most primates. A close bond between parents helps to insure the survival of our offspring, and thus our genes. This also helps to bond our extended family, and even our tribe, which share most of our genes with us.

HOPE...Well, this is just my view, but here goes. The opposite of hope is dispair. Being always depressed would NOT be a survival trait. Also, we have evovled the ability to plan for the future. Hope and anticipation go together.

FAITH...We have, through the vast majority of human history, had virtually no understanding of how the world around us worked. None of our beliefs would have been provable. We could only have relied on faith. Faith is also likely to be tied into our social being, our willingness to accept the dictates of our group leaders.

BTW, I have owned dogs for many years, and I can see primitive versions of these emotions in my dogs.
The Man

Reno, NV

#21 Feb 25, 2006
Bucephalas wrote:
That's funny, I thought this country was founded on religious freedom. Shoving your jesus crap up my a** doesn't seem to be in keeping with this. Keep it to yourself, and out of my classroom. All of this ID crap is simply a means of getting religion into science classrooms through an unguarded backdoor (which I guess again brings to mind the image of shoving .... forget it.....)

<quoted text>
I totally agree with you -- keep this ID trash out of our schools.

I am not a native to the state that I currently live in (Ohio), but you would like believe how many people here follow the bible to the letter. This is probably the most backwards, uneducated state in the nation and a huge majority are super religious. Ignorance breeds religion, religion breeds ignorance.

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