why the bible is wrong
thedave

UK

#432 Jul 28, 2012
"A better way to hold these discussions is not to post so lengthy. I am sorry, but I don't have time for that."

the length of my replies is determined by how many things you say i feel need corrected, if you didnt make me repeat myself so often it would be less of an issue. i do however regret having to make my posts so lengthy, as it is obvious you are not, and have not been taking any effort to read them thoroughly...perhaps just skim-reading them before resorting to standard christian, default reples. this would explain why i have to constantly repeat myself - examples below

"You act like you have all the answers, " #390

which as ive now had to point out so many times is a proposterously idiotic thing to say when YOU have made the statement

"There are no flaws in my faith. The only flaw is presuming there is a flaw"

i have had to point out this absurdity 4 times (posts #391,#398,#403,#404,) and you still dont get it and in fact REPEAT it again later

"Thedave, there are not problems in my faith. It is your perception of my faith that is the issue. To me, faith in God is perfectly fine and valid." #411

when you say your faith has no flaws you are saying that i and all other skeptics are 100% wrong. you are not open to even the possibility that your faith has flaws and may not be false. this is what you have said - in context. i have pointed this out to you 5 times now...

how then can you seriously repeatedly accuse me of 'coming to conclusions before the matter has even been discussed'#393, aim the accusation that i 'consider anything besides your way of thinking faulty'#396 and state 'I don't know why you even ask questions, you have it all figured out anyway :-)'#401

the same thing is brought up again #402 when you say "I was more than happy to explain to Dave why I believe in God, but he seems to know all the answers already (although he professes not to)"

ill post out now for the 6th time the absurdity of this while you openly express that 'There are no flaws in my faith.' i will not let this go - nor should i. the absurdity continues even on to post #418

"Thedave, what is ridiculous is that you ASSUME you have the answers. We both know that we stand on polar opposites of the spectrum on God and belief, so I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying your belief is 100% correct and mine is a fantasy."

repeating such statements time and time again while adamantly expressing as i have quoted now oh so many times that 'There are no flaws in my faith.' is a disgrace, on an intellectual or moral level depending on how obtuse you are to your own idiocy in this case. i will shamelessly throw that quote about all day, its ridiculous. not once have you shown me where i said i am '100% correct' or 'know it all'- such a quote doesnt exist. i can quite happily show you examples of you saying your belief is 100% correct...and have done about 10 times now.

"At the best, you really should not act like you have refuted Christianity, but rather approach it with a skeptical approach, such as "according to what I can tell, it is unlikely Christianity is true, etc." To simply denounce it - you truly don't have enough proof for that. You have FAITH that it is false based on observations."

again - what am i reading here? i HAVE refuted christianity in my own mind after years of spiritual and philosophical consideration. i have refuted christianity in the exact same way you have accepted it. you act like i am not allowed my opinions or am some fanatic who is incapable of discussion when you are the one making bold statements like 'there are no flaws in my faith'. irony of ironies - a christian telling someone they dont have enough evidence to say they dont believe in something.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#433 Jul 28, 2012
thedave, I saw your last words there. You have refuted it. I honestly have been too busy to get back on here and respond, but I am not going to waste your time. You are a genius in your own mind. Whenever you wake up from your slumber, send me a message - I will be more than happy to enlighten you about the love and grace of Christ.
thedave

UK

#434 Jul 28, 2012
there are no flaws in your faith...i think it is you who needs to wake up from your slumber sir

the love and grace of christ means as much to me as the love and grace of napoleon or hitler. theyre dead people...theyre irrelevant

and i love the opener 'i saw your last words' which i can assume (terrible me with my assumptions) means you didnt read my post in full...nothing new there.

you make it sound like there is something wrong with me refuting christianity...which is a good prerequisite to fruitful discussion. do you think my prior feelings of atheism/agnosticism/antitheism automatically exclude me from entering a discussion about christianity/faith/the bible?
HahaReligion

Candás, Spain

#435 Jul 29, 2012
Thedave, I have immense respect for you. Keep it up.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#436 Jul 29, 2012
As for those who are genuine seekers of truth, who don't dismiss the hand of God as thedave has, I will give testimony to prayers answered by the hand of God As I mentioned, people such as thedave will be quick to dismiss these miracles, because they are contradictory to their "evidence", and that would be a shame to find out that God is real for them.

But I will testify to a few of the miracles that God has done in my life.

I already testified to the hailstorm incident in previous passages.

I had a time when God wanted me to get a cellphone for ministry purposes, yet I did not have the money. It was $100 to get the first payment going. I told God that I would get the cell phone, but He had to provide the first $100. That was on a Saturday. On Monday, I came into work, and there was an envelope laying on my desk with $100 in it. I went and got the cell-phone, keeping my end of the deal with God.

My son is a miracle in itself. My wife has been told countless times by doctors that she could not get pregnant. She had been in many relationships before me, and never once got pregnant. When we got married, she said "Don't worry about kids - I cannot have any." I told her, "That is not what the Bible says." I took her to Hannah in 1 Samuel who prayed for God to open her womb, and God answered her prayer. We prayed diligently for 6-7 months, and I finally petitioned God to keep His word that Margaret too would become pregnant. Right after that, Margaret became pregnant with Noah. Doctors were amazed.

These are just three of MANY, MANY prayers I have had answered. For the unbeliever, they will always be ridiculous, because they do not want to believe. Their hearts are too hard to deal with the fact that there really is a loving God who is concerned about their life. For the ones who have ears to hear, it makes the difference - they are the ones who will receive from the hand of the LORD.

I didn't even testify about my uncle being raised from the dead after I prayed for Him. It wouldn't matter anyway to someone who is too hard-hearted and hard-headed to listen. But for those who really want a miracle in your life, you need to learn to PRAY DILIGENTLY. Forget those who mock you - you will see their end come to pass. The wicked mock God and receive the due fruit of their arrogance, while the humble will receive blessings from the hand of the Lord.

If you genuinely want to see good come to pass in your life, you need to come to Jesus humbly. You cannot believe the lie of man, the report that says it is impossible. All things are possible to Him who believes. They mocked Jesus when He did miracles, and even today they mock. I just heard a testimony of a friend's dog who had two lame rear legs that were healed after prayer. All things are possible, even to animals, to Him that believes.
religionisfalse

Attleborough, UK

#437 Jul 29, 2012
Okay okay. YOu say that there are no flaws in your faith, yet the very definition of faith is belief without evidence. THerefore anyone approaching faith with a logical or reasonable mind would reject it, that leaves only the lesser, weaker minded who embrace faith.

On to these miracles you claim to have happened to you, your wife's pregnancy could quite easily have been a misdiagnosis or prognosis and down to chance.

ABout your grandpa, you need to specify the conditions of his death. it may seem silly to say that but the footballer was clinically dead for over an hour before being saved.

Moreover every single time prayer experiments have been conducted they have brought up nothing. ANy encounters with god are delusions.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#438 Jul 29, 2012
religionisfalse wrote:
Okay okay. YOu say that there are no flaws in your faith, yet the very definition of faith is belief without evidence. THerefore anyone approaching faith with a logical or reasonable mind would reject it, that leaves only the lesser, weaker minded who embrace faith.
On to these miracles you claim to have happened to you, your wife's pregnancy could quite easily have been a misdiagnosis or prognosis and down to chance.
ABout your grandpa, you need to specify the conditions of his death. it may seem silly to say that but the footballer was clinically dead for over an hour before being saved.
Moreover every single time prayer experiments have been conducted they have brought up nothing. ANy encounters with god are delusions.
Faith is not belief without evidence. Faith is given THROUGH evidence. Biblically, we begin learning faith through hearing (Romans 10:17), but the FAITH produces results, such as my uncle rising from the dead after praying for God to spare his life. So while you think FAITH is symptomatic of weak-minded individuals, you are helpless to the elements of the universe, while I can petition the maker of those elements to do supernatural miracles. What is more weak-minded - to see the possibility and examine it, or to instantly dismiss it without checking out its validity? No true truth-seeker (or scientist, we will say) denies any potential evidence - all leaves are turned in search of the answer.

Sure, a misdiagnosis by multiple doctors over the years, plus a bunch of impotent males over the years. I find it amazing that such an intelligent individual as you finds such a quick dismissal of potential evidence for miracles...not much of a truth-seeker.

My uncle was literally on his deathbed and I prayed to God to spare his life so that he would not go to hell. My uncle had saved my life when I was about 6 or 7 from drowning. Right after I prayed (across the state at that), I find out that my uncle was out of his deathbed. He was a totally different individual as well - my whole family was blown away. God gave him one last chance to get his heart right - he gave his heart to Jesus and got baptized, and three weeks later he peacefully passed away. This was an answer to my prayer - that Donald would not go to hell. God spared him.

The true delusion is walking through this world and denying that there is NO God. If you have something against Christianity, fine. I think Jesus proved Himself quite well, fulfilling MULTIPLE prophecies concerning His life, death and resurrection, plus the Holy Ghost that still continues to operate in the church today. But even not counting that, to say there is no God is an infinitesimally small chance, considering how perfect this universe operates on one set of principles, or even how our planet sits so perfectly on an axis at the perfect distance from the sun, or that the blend of materials in the air are the perfect blend for life, etc. There are too many factors to dismiss the concept of God. That is the great delusion, that God doesn't exist. If you have a problem with Christianity, maybe it is your understanding, but it is through FAITH that I see REALITY happen SUPERNATURALLY.

In the future, if you are going to claim to be a truth-seeker, you should not be so quick to dismiss possibilities. Even when thedave mentioned miracle claims in other religions, I did not dismiss them. I simply said I didn't know about them. It isn't fair for me to judge what I don't know about.
religionisfalse

Attleborough, UK

#439 Jul 29, 2012
Everyone is helpless to the elements of the universe. what makes you, or anyone for that matter so superior and special that you can call upon the supernatural force of a god and expect him to respond instantly when there are hundreds dying in Africa daily. Why does god not save them?

There is also a complete breakdown of logic here, you pray for your uncle, he recovers slightly so you assume god intervened only for him to die threes weeks later. Doesn't it make you wonder what the point was,

Also, the possibility of a supernatural deity has been examined and been found to be far less likely than the current scientific understanding of how the universe came about. This is beside the point as it is the duty of the proposing party to prove their theory rather than expect others to attempt to disprove it and then say it can't be disproved because it is transcendent. THere are many things that can't be proved not to exist like unicorns and fairys, but very few people believe in them.

The universe exists as perfectly as it does because it is one of and infinite number of universes that have existed and collapsed because their physical properties were not balanced until one existed in which they were.

You are wrong about me being quick to dismiss that which I do not understand. I look into the science and draw my conclusions from the EVIDENCE!

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#440 Jul 29, 2012
religionisfalse wrote:
Everyone is helpless to the elements of the universe. what makes you, or anyone for that matter so superior and special that you can call upon the supernatural force of a god and expect him to respond instantly when there are hundreds dying in Africa daily. Why does god not save them?
There is also a complete breakdown of logic here, you pray for your uncle, he recovers slightly so you assume god intervened only for him to die threes weeks later. Doesn't it make you wonder what the point was,
Also, the possibility of a supernatural deity has been examined and been found to be far less likely than the current scientific understanding of how the universe came about. This is beside the point as it is the duty of the proposing party to prove their theory rather than expect others to attempt to disprove it and then say it can't be disproved because it is transcendent. THere are many things that can't be proved not to exist like unicorns and fairys, but very few people believe in them.
The universe exists as perfectly as it does because it is one of and infinite number of universes that have existed and collapsed because their physical properties were not balanced until one existed in which they were.
You are wrong about me being quick to dismiss that which I do not understand. I look into the science and draw my conclusions from the EVIDENCE!
You accept that you are helpless. That is what you believe, or what you have FAITH in. The idea that you are helpless, which is contrary to the Word of God. Because God answers my prayers makes Him contradictory that there is suffering in this world? Jesus promised in the end times that there would be famines and pestilences...please tell me where He contradicted Himself then. If you are concerned with the idea that there are famines in Africa, what are you doing about it? God gave you the ability to help others in need, but instead you mock Him because you aren't doing your job to help those who are suffering.

Should God have given my uncle longer than 3 weeks? What level of time is satisfactory here? I asked God to save him from hell, not give hima much longer life. He gave his heart to God within a week and quickly got baptized, and then after he had prepared himself, he passed away. If you had known my uncle, you would have known that the old version of him before the answered prayer was totally different to the one who came up off the death-bed. God not only touched his body, but also his heart.

According to whatever sources you are claiming, God is less likely than no God, but you have no proof - only FAITH that there is no God. The difference is that I am seeing physical manifestations of God's hand through prayer, while you are seeing none because you refuse to do what He asked you to do - "Ask, and ye shall receive". However, many pray selfish prayers, not according to God's will, and they wonder why they don't receive. Prayers must be done in humility, with FAITH, putting God's will first, and not your own. When you become a Christian, you don't belong to yourself anymore - you are the property of Jesus Christ.

Your theory on universes is not proved - it is a theory. It is a good idea, but not proven. Have you ever seen another universe? No - but you believe in it. Have you ever seen God - no, but you don't believe in Him. You have FAITH in man's theories, but not in God's Word, which tells about Jesus coming to earth in the flesh to do the will of the Father.

I am right to conclude you dismiss the evidence, because you fail to test it. You make hypothesises about how my prayers got answered, or how I got the intended results, without testing the theories for yourself. If God is testable, then test it. But you must come humbly, or you will see no results. This is also part of the test.
religionisfalse

Attleborough, UK

#441 Jul 29, 2012
I know I am helpless. I know I am an insignificant speak of carbon and other elements in an incomprehensibly vast universe and I have consciousness because of electrical signals in my brain. Nothing I bad do will prevent my consciousness from terminating. THat is why everyone is helpless. I DONT have faith in that I is what I can see from the evidence.

I don't think you quite understand me. I am saying why would god choose to help your uncle and not the countlesg others in need?

Again no. I do not believe in god because I have seen on evidence for his existence. That is not faith. THere is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god.

Again I do not have faith in man's theories, I draw my conclusions from the available evidence and the most plausible explanation. Maybe a small amount of trust is required but only because science has not had long enough to develop and test and work its theories. ANd Damn right I am going to put more faith into scientific theories than the stories from a two thousand year old book.

And stop saying I dismiss the evidence. I am a scientist, I adjust my view based on what i observe. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be maintained

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#442 Jul 29, 2012
religionisfalse wrote:
I know I am helpless. I know I am an insignificant speak of carbon and other elements in an incomprehensibly vast universe and I have consciousness because of electrical signals in my brain. Nothing I bad do will prevent my consciousness from terminating. THat is why everyone is helpless. I DONT have faith in that I is what I can see from the evidence.
I don't think you quite understand me. I am saying why would god choose to help your uncle and not the countlesg others in need?
Again no. I do not believe in god because I have seen on evidence for his existence. That is not faith. THere is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god.
Again I do not have faith in man's theories, I draw my conclusions from the available evidence and the most plausible explanation. Maybe a small amount of trust is required but only because science has not had long enough to develop and test and work its theories. ANd Damn right I am going to put more faith into scientific theories than the stories from a two thousand year old book.
And stop saying I dismiss the evidence. I am a scientist, I adjust my view based on what i observe. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be maintained
You CONFESS that you are helpless. That is the problem. If you speak death over yourself, then that is all you will receive. Life and death are in the power of the tongue. You have further convinced yourself that you are nothing more than electrical currents, which truly is a very sad state of affairs. Basically you deny "yourself" (your soul) and chalk it up to a blend of chemicals. That must be terribly depressing.

My uncle is not the only one God has helped. There are many others who God has helped, but it doesn't mean there will never be famine nor suffering on this world. God promised that in the last days there would be an increase in evil upon the planet, such as natural disasters, famines, pestilences, etc. These are the byproducts of sin in the land.

Well, you stated it yourself - you have FAITH in something. Faith is for the weak-minded...unless we have faith in man only.

A scientist reviews the evidence and tests it. You have heard the evidence, and you gave a hypothesis that contradicted my hypothesis. I say God did it, and you say it was coincidence (every single answered prayer, not just the 4 I mentioned in the text).

FAITH is based on God's Word, not on observation. FAITH is seeing that which will be before it is even there. I saw Noah would be born long before he was born, contrary to the expert opinions of the educated geniuses who spend 10 years in school to tell others about their bodies. I mean, with the most advanced equipment to diagnose my wife's ovarian state, they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt (trust me, more than one diagnosis along the way) that my wife was unable to conceive. But FAITH superceded the doctor's review. You want to know the truth? I believe my wife used to be unable to conceive, but God changed that. All things are possible to him that believes.

So no, I won't quit saying that about you not being a truth-seeker. So many atheists chalk up my experience and understanding to a weak, naive mind, but when I challenge their intellectual capabilities to examine the evidence, they quickly dismiss it without testing it. Not much of a scientist when it comes to the realms that are beyond what the five senses perceive. But that is okay - your specialty is not in the supernatural, but only the natural. It is understandable you don't want to venture into seeing if God is real. Just don't expect me to take it easy on you when you claim to examine the evidence - it is obvious that you don't.
No One

London, KY

#443 Jul 29, 2012
Scientology is the only TRUE religion!
religionisfalse

Attleborough, UK

#444 Jul 30, 2012
The fact that I am a realist and do not fear death and do not accept that have a soul does not mean I am unhappy. On the contrary I am quite content with my life.
THat is my point though. WHy would god inflict theses evils upon us? You say that it is because of original sin, but did not god come down from the heavens and get crucified specifically for the purpose of forgiving our sin?
I don't have faith. I said I would be more likely to put faith into scientific theories than some random story book, IF faith was required in science
YEs is say it was coincidental that your four prayers were "answered" and not the millions of others that go unanswered.
You have faith in god. FAith which is based on The bible and few "miracles" that have been claimed to have happened. Not the actual evidence. As for your "vision" of your son's birth. Quite possibly you could have wanted that event to become reality so badly that your brain at some point created for itself an imagined scenario in which it did. I am not saying that You are definitely wrong, I am merely eenlightening you to other possible explanations.
And scientists do examine the evidence. That is their job. THey test everything and dismiss nothing until a theory becomes fact. And of course we can't examine the supernatural. THat is why it is supernatural. If we could examine it it would be NATURAL.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#445 Jul 30, 2012
No One wrote:
Scientology is the only TRUE religion!
LOL I believe you are joking, but for the sake of the conversation (and for those who may not be aware of what Scientology really is about)... after over a good year of study on Scientology, I would say it is one of the most sly, destructive cults around. Every piece of info that has anything remotely criticizing the group is taught to be entheta (spiritually destructive in a sense, almost poisonous for the Scientologist to mentally ingest). The members are literally hypnotized piece by piece, step by step through training routines until their "reactive mind" is erased (in other words, until they are in a complete trance and fully susceptible to anything Hubbard teaches. I could go on forever, but there is plenty of good info about Scientology from ex-Scientologists out there. Check out Operation Clambake, for instance. I just read the story about Margery Wakefield, which was very educational in a sense about the everyday affairs of the life of a Scientologist. Also read about Debbie Cooke and RPF, for instance, to get a bit of an idea how they treat even their highest ranking members. It is a sad sham.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#446 Jul 30, 2012
religionisfalse wrote:
The fact that I am a realist and do not fear death and do not accept that have a soul does not mean I am unhappy. On the contrary I am quite content with my life.
THat is my point though. WHy would god inflict theses evils upon us? You say that it is because of original sin, but did not god come down from the heavens and get crucified specifically for the purpose of forgiving our sin?
I don't have faith. I said I would be more likely to put faith into scientific theories than some random story book, IF faith was required in science
YEs is say it was coincidental that your four prayers were "answered" and not the millions of others that go unanswered.
You have faith in god. FAith which is based on The bible and few "miracles" that have been claimed to have happened. Not the actual evidence. As for your "vision" of your son's birth. Quite possibly you could have wanted that event to become reality so badly that your brain at some point created for itself an imagined scenario in which it did. I am not saying that You are definitely wrong, I am merely eenlightening you to other possible explanations.
And scientists do examine the evidence. That is their job. THey test everything and dismiss nothing until a theory becomes fact. And of course we can't examine the supernatural. THat is why it is supernatural. If we could examine it it would be NATURAL.
If you call that being a realist, but I think you are missing reality on it. However, that is neither here nor there. To me, the real you is not your flesh - it is your soul, which is who "you" are. The flesh is nothing more than a vessel that you live in temporarily.

God did not inflict these sins upon us. We inflicted them upon ourselves through original sin (which you correctly mentioned), and yes Jesus paid the price for sin, but not everyone has embraced that forgiveness. If everyone truly had Jesus to be their Lord (and I am not talking about hypocrites who say they are Christian and go do terrible violent things to people), there would be no wars. There would be peace. People would have compassion on the sick and try to reach out to help those in need. In reality, even when a person gets saved and walks with God, there will still be periods of ups and downs (mountains and valleys). God uses the valleys, or the tough times in life, to humble us and cleanse us of sin. But as far as the famines and such, these things will not end in truth until Jesus returns again to rule and reign upon the earth.

FAITH is required to a degree in science. The math can add up, but still not see the real results. A perfect example of this would be the Higgs Boson which is recently being "discovered". I believe that they have actually proven it now, unless I am correct. However, for years it was a theory that had to be taken by FAITH. The signs were there, but no PROOF as of yet. There are many THEORIES, such as M-Theory for instance. Could it be true? Perhaps. But the Bible is no mere random story book. Jesus came 2,000 years ago and fulfilled the conditions that were left in the Old Testament concerning the return of the Messiah. You should study them. A great example would be to study Psalm 22 in comparison with Jesus' death, or Isaiah 53 as well (the Messiah would be as a sheep sent to the slaughter to die for our transgressions). Or even Isaiah 7:14 concerning the virgin conceiving a child, the Messiah. These are just a couple of signs.

There are not millions that go unanswered. I do know others that get their prayers answered too, but so many are not praying the way God taught them. Many give up after one prayer, not hearing the admonition of JESUS in Luke 18 to keep knocking until you get the answer, or they pray selfish prayers, not prayers like "Lord, use me for YOUR glory." People pray, "Help the hungry in Africa JESUS", but when He asks them to do it, they refuse. What gives?

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#447 Jul 30, 2012
religionisfalse wrote:
YEs is say it was coincidental that your four prayers were "answered" and not the millions of others that go unanswered.
You have faith in god. FAith which is based on The bible and few "miracles" that have been claimed to have happened. Not the actual evidence. As for your "vision" of your son's birth. Quite possibly you could have wanted that event to become reality so badly that your brain at some point created for itself an imagined scenario in which it did. I am not saying that You are definitely wrong, I am merely eenlightening you to other possible explanations.
And scientists do examine the evidence. That is their job. THey test everything and dismiss nothing until a theory becomes fact. And of course we can't examine the supernatural. THat is why it is supernatural. If we could examine it it would be NATURAL.
As I said, I only mentioned 4 prayers here. I didn't want to flood the page, but it doesn't matter. Every prayer, no matter how big, is easy to dismiss and write off. You have proven that, as have MANY atheists. Why? It contradicts your beliefs. You want me to open my eyes to the idea that God isn't real, although I get results with Him in prayer and you don't. WHY would I bend my understanding to the lesser when I already have the greater? You would say, "You are deluded through your faith, and so when what you are praying for happens, you assume it is from God." This is a good argument, and a plausible one, and has been discussed before. Perhaps it is true, no? But let me ask you. Is it perhaps true that you might be deluded by the idea that it is all coincidence? Could there POSSIBLY be ANY chance at all that you may be wrong about God? If you can say 100% that God is not real, there is nothing I can say. If you can say that there is even 1% or less of a chance that God may be real and prayer may be real, then perhaps there is a chance for some fair, balanced discussion.

It is funny - I discussed the very scenario you mentioned in the next quote you posted. It is almost like you guys read the same FAQ page on discussions between atheists and Christians - you all are cookie cutter! LOL just kidding with you. If you want to convince yourself that the power of my thinking is so strong that I willed Noah into existence, I must have some real powers here! I am glad you are saying you are not possibly 100% correct - that means there is an avenue for discussion. But ask yourself this real question - is it truly plausible that I willed Noah into existence? Or even this - that Noah would have come anyway? Perhaps I was the only fertile guy, or maybe after 6-7 months of trying, finally one of my sperm made it through, while every other attempt by me or another man was futile - perhaps it was all coincidence. These are real possibilities, and although thedave couldn't grasp the concept that I did evaluate these claims (trust me, I have had harder conversations than what he was able to offer - his was hard-headed with NO room for discussion at all) I do evaluate them. They are fair discussion for the table. As for me, I KNOW God moves. I know He hears prayers. I have looked at the evidence, and weighed it according to scripture. I even mentioned about a friend who prayed for a dog that was lame in the two rear legs that now can walk. Trust me, I have not even gotten into a HUGE portion of answered prayers, nor visions fulfilled, etc. I simply gave a handful of examples. I didn't tell you about melanoma or gout coming out of the same individual by faith, or about a friend who spoke in tongues and it was understood in Yiddish by the Hebrew man, who then gave his heart to Jesus. These are only a few of the miracles I have seen and heard of.

You can examine the supernatural by putting God to the test. Pray according to His will. This is the test. If nothing happens, then there you go. But I put Him to the test daily, and He does not fail me.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#448 Jul 30, 2012
I responded to the last part of your post, but lost it somehow, so I am going to just wrap up the last comment I made. If you want to test God, pray according to His will. One of the biggest tests I put to the faith was tithing. Before I began to tithe, I lived penny to penny. When I started tithing, I always had more than I did before I did not tithe. I am not going into all the biblical teaching on this, but God kept His end of the bargain. This is where faith comes to real levels - giving out of "need". You think you cannot afford to give to God, but the truth is that you cannot afford not to give to Him. He has truly blessed me in great ways since I began to be faithful to Him.

There are other things I had written too, but I am tired...going back to bed for a few before work.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#449 Jul 30, 2012
Okay, sorry - nevermind...my last post is on here. It must have taken a minute or two to register...my apologies.
thedave

UK

#451 Jul 30, 2012
"What is more weak-minded - to see the possibility and examine it, or to instantly dismiss it without checking out its validity?"

have you tried praying to allah, zeus or any of the other gods...or have you dismissed them without checking out their validity?

"Even when thedave mentioned miracle claims in other religions, I did not dismiss them. I simply said I didn't know about them. It isn't fair for me to judge what I don't know about. "

you just dont wish to admit you dismiss them cause of the can of worms it opens for you. its a perfect example of the question-dodging i referred to earlier. as a christian you do dismiss them by default as you believe there is one true god, and that all others are imposters and idolatrous. is this not true?

http://www.tendar.net/Healings-with-Tendar.ht...

so answer the question and dont say 'i only want to talk about jesus'- it doesnt work like that. you argue that your testimony of answered prayers and 'healing' are proof of god, so were these buddhists divinely healed or where they 'mistaken'?

"But even not counting that, to say there is no God is an infinitesimally small chance, considering how perfect this universe operates on one set of principles, or even how our planet sits so perfectly on an axis at the perfect distance from the sun, or that the blend of materials in the air are the perfect blend for life, etc. There are too many factors to dismiss the concept of God."

this is the god of the gaps argument 'we dont undertand this complexity therefore god did it'. as neil degrasse tyson states:'if THAT is how you want to invoke your evidence for god then god is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance thats getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time goes on'.

"You CONFESS that you are helpless. That is the problem. If you speak death over yourself, then that is all you will receive. Life and death are in the power of the tongue."

speak death over yourself? what are you talking about. im sure he, along with myself and the rest of the sane population realise that death is inevitble as everyone in history who has ever lived has died. there is nothing more certain in life than death. wishful thoughts or saying 'i wont die' clearly doesnt stop death. to say they are 'in the power of the tongue' is sheer idiocy - something you think sounds cool and thoughtful and deep - but in reality doesnt make sense.

"Basically you deny "yourself" (your soul) and chalk it up to a blend of chemicals."

there is no such thing as a soul. there is only consciousness which science is getting much better at understanding. we know more of the understanding of the consciousness and human brain through neuro-science.

to deny having a soul does not deny the value and depths of consciousness and the immense diversity of character and individuality we have.

"Well, you stated it yourself - you have FAITH in something. Faith is for the weak-minded...unless we have faith in man only."

i covered this before - you just dont understand the word faith and especially the huge difference between faith and supernatural faith. i have faith the sun will set tonight, this is not the same as having 'faith' that the tooth fairy will give me money under my pillow if i lose a tooth. one is reasonable faith, the other isnt. all faith is not the same.

"I say God did it, and you say it was coincidence (every single answered prayer, not just the 4 I mentioned in the text). "

there are many, many, many more unanswered prayers than answered prayers

"after over a good year of study on Scientology, I would say it is one of the most sly, destructive cults around. "

actually id still say christianity has the edge over it there. there are 2billion christians in the world which greatly outnumber the number of scientologists...

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#452 Jul 30, 2012
Thedave, I prayed to Jesus and got results. He says "I am the way, the truth and the life - no man comes unto the Father but by me." I pray to the one who gives me results, so He cannot be lying, and then He specifically teaches that there is no other way. Why would I pray to another?

Plus, Allah did not come to this earth and die for your sin, nor did Zeus. Allah was a byproduct of Ishmael, who is of Abrahamic descent. Zeus was an imaginary god devised by the Greeks (BTW, love the old Greek stories - very colorful) who was later molded into Jupiter by the Romans to keep the control of the people they conquered.

So tell me - if I told you I would do something for you, and I kept my word, would you go looking elsewhere for someone to prove me wrong, or would you stick with me? I promised you something, and I came through with my end of the deal - wouldn't that make me the truthful one?

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