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DannyPalmer

Killeen, TX

#1 Mar 26, 2013
what would the citizens of Copperas Cove like see done with the city golf course?
syjimo

Copperas Cove, TX

#2 Mar 26, 2013
contract it out!It will never make money or break even.
Watchful Eye

Killeen, TX

#3 Mar 26, 2013
DannyPalmer wrote:
what would the citizens of Copperas Cove like see done with the city golf course?
Sell the place. It is a big drain for City taxes to disappear in.
Blade

Waco, TX

#4 Mar 26, 2013
DannyPalmer wrote:
what would the citizens of Copperas Cove like see done with the city golf course?
Turn it into a pistol/rifle/skeet/trap range. The City would make a bundle.
Rex Kielman

Copperas Cove, TX

#5 Apr 1, 2013
DannyPalmer wrote:
what would the citizens of Copperas Cove like see done with the city golf course?
First off... it has been contracted out multiple times and it hasn't worked yet. Second...I believe it is a municipal golf course on land donated for a small fee to Copperas Cove from Ft Hood to be used as a golf course to allow Ft Hood soldiers another avenue for recreation in the local area. It is part of the Parks and Recreation Department. It is probably about the only activity in the P&R that makes any money. As a municipal golf course it is my understanding that it shouldn't be expected to operate in the black. If it was in great shape it would not only be recreation for Cove golfers, but it would bring in golfers from other cities who would not only spend their money at the course but also possibly at our restaurants, convenient stores, and sometimes even the hotels. This helps our local businesses and added taxes for the city. We have to pay to use the golf course.... what other P&R activities charge as much? Just because you may not play golf doesn't mean it isn't a valid activity. If I use the attitude of you that don't play golf, then I say close all of the swimming pools. I don't use them. The golf course should be viewed as a recreation activity just as any other activity of P&R. Therefore, I say.... upgrade it.. make it a place for the city to be proud of. Help it bring in golfers from out of town to participate in our tournaments like it used to. Many clubs hold tournaments as a fund raiser. Such as the Lions Club who just recently held their annual tournament. I am sure they would love to have a full field for their fund raiser as would the other clubs. We have a golf association that exists soley to help out on the course. And I know we would love to have more folks out here to join our club and participate in our tournaments. We used to have large groups regularly and with the help of the city we could get back to that level.
syjimo

Copperas Cove, TX

#6 Apr 1, 2013
You are wrong about the contracting out of the golf course.The diner/snack bar has been contracted out and failed several times but not the golf course.Never since the late 60's early 70's has it been contracted out.
Rex Kielman

Copperas Cove, TX

#7 Apr 1, 2013
syjimo wrote:
You are wrong about the contracting out of the golf courseThe diner/snack bar has been contracted out and failed several times but not the golf course.Never since the late 60's early 70's has it been contracted out.
Actually you are the one that is wrong. Check your facts. I have been playing out here since it opened in the 70's... was not here in the 60's. And the golf course has been contracted out. I know for sure one time to Sam and Maggie Patton. Sam had the course and snack bar at that time. This was before we built the building that contains the P&R folks, pro shop, and snack bar. I believe it was contracted out one other time, but don't know for sure or to whom. Who are you?
Watchful Eye

Killeen, TX

#8 Apr 1, 2013
syjimo wrote:
You are wrong about the contracting out of the golf course.The diner/snack bar has been contracted out and failed several times but not the golf course.Never since the late 60's early 70's has it been contracted out.
I've lived here for over 35 years and cannot remember that the course was contracted out. The concession stand has been contracted out numerous times and all failed with running the concession venue.

The story line over the years has been that a golf course is needed to attract big business to the City. I'm still waiting to see this fable come to reality.
Happy Golfer

Copperas Cove, TX

#9 Apr 1, 2013
I don't know who syjimo thinks he is but he doesn't know anything about the Copperas Cove golf course. I have lived here my whole life (64 years). I know the golf course was not built until the 1970's. The land was donated by Fort Hood for the sole purpose of building a golf course. I do know the golf course was contracted out to several parties trying to make a country club out of it but none prevailed. Several large groups have used the golf course for their weekly golf meets but have now moved elsewhere because the course got in such bad shape. There are several golf association members who volunteer their time weekly to mow, trim trees, and generally clean up the course but there still needs to be other work done to keep the course appealing. The city can bring in the big golfing groups again if they keep the course in top notch condition. These groups will rent hotel rooms, eat at restaurants, and buy accessories from local businesses. There are always people who say close it down because they don't play golf but there is a large number of people in Copperas Cove and other places that do play and enjoy the facility. To go along with comments above, I don't use the library, should it be closed down or should we cut funding to the facility?
Happy Golfer

Copperas Cove, TX

#10 Apr 1, 2013
Watchful Eye wrote:
<quoted text>
I've lived here for over 35 years and cannot remember that the course was contracted out. The concession stand has been contracted out numerous times and all failed with running the concession venue.
The story line over the years has been that a golf course is needed to attract big business to the City. I'm still waiting to see this fable come to reality.
Who are you? It says you live in Gatesville!!!!!
Watchful Eye

Killeen, TX

#11 Apr 1, 2013
Happy Golfer wrote:
<quoted text>Who are you? It says you live in Gatesville!!!!!
I live and pay high taxes in CC.
Danny P

Killeen, TX

#12 Apr 1, 2013
Thank you
Watchful Eye wrote:
<quoted text>
I live and pay high taxes in CC.
Danny P

Killeen, TX

#13 Apr 1, 2013
Great information for all to remember, thank you.
Rex Kielman wrote:
<quoted text> First off... it has been contracted out multiple times and it hasn't worked yet. Second...I believe it is a municipal golf course on land donated for a small fee to Copperas Cove from Ft Hood to be used as a golf course to allow Ft Hood soldiers another avenue for recreation in the local area. It is part of the Parks and Recreation Department. It is probably about the only activity in the P&R that makes any money. As a municipal golf course it is my understanding that it shouldn't be expected to operate in the black. If it was in great shape it would not only be recreation for Cove golfers, but it would bring in golfers from other cities who would not only spend their money at the course but also possibly at our restaurants, convenient stores, and sometimes even the hotels. This helps our local businesses and added taxes for the city. We have to pay to use the golf course.... what other P&R activities charge as much? Just because you may not play golf doesn't mean it isn't a valid activity. If I use the attitude of you that don't play golf, then I say close all of the swimming pools. I don't use them. The golf course should be viewed as a recreation activity just as any other activity of P&R. Therefore, I say.... upgrade it.. make it a place for the city to be proud of. Help it bring in golfers from out of town to participate in our tournaments like it used to. Many clubs hold tournaments as a fund raiser. Such as the Lions Club who just recently held their annual tournament. I am sure they would love to have a full field for their fund raiser as would the other clubs. We have a golf association that exists soley to help out on the course. And I know we would love to have more folks out here to join our club and participate in our tournaments. We used to have large groups regularly and with the help of the city we could get back to that level.
Danny P

Killeen, TX

#14 Apr 1, 2013
Great information, thank you
Happy Golfer wrote:
I don't know who syjimo thinks he is but he doesn't know anything about the Copperas Cove golf course. I have lived here my whole life (64 years). I know the golf course was not built until the 1970's. The land was donated by Fort Hood for the sole purpose of building a golf course. I do know the golf course was contracted out to several parties trying to make a country club out of it but none prevailed. Several large groups have used the golf course for their weekly golf meets but have now moved elsewhere because the course got in such bad shape. There are several golf association members who volunteer their time weekly to mow, trim trees, and generally clean up the course but there still needs to be other work done to keep the course appealing. The city can bring in the big golfing groups again if they keep the course in top notch condition. These groups will rent hotel rooms, eat at restaurants, and buy accessories from local businesses. There are always people who say close it down because they don't play golf but there is a large number of people in Copperas Cove and other places that do play and enjoy the facility. To go along with comments above, I don't use the library, should it be closed down or should we cut funding to the facility?
EOW7

Killeen, TX

#15 Apr 3, 2013
Wasn't the golf course started by a few private individuals who "gave" it to the city? The golf course is enjoyed by a few but has cost the city millions over the years. It is a very costly operation that have never benefitted enough citizen to be cost effective. The taxpayers of CC have payed dearly for this thing. It would be a good idea to stop waisting monies and use the land for something that benefits a larger percentage of CC's population along with a lower maintenance operation, such as a park, walking areas ect. The majority of citizens just don't use the golf course. Why don't we put it on the next ballot and settle this question once and for all. Let the majority win, no matter what.
Kenn Smith

Waco, TX

#16 Apr 3, 2013
EOW7 wrote:
Wasn't the golf course started by a few private individuals who "gave" it to the city? The golf course is enjoyed by a few but has cost the city millions over the years. It is a very costly operation that have never benefitted enough citizen to be cost effective. The taxpayers of CC have payed dearly for this thing. It would be a good idea to stop waisting monies and use the land for something that benefits a larger percentage of CC's population along with a lower maintenance operation, such as a park, walking areas ect. The majority of citizens just don't use the golf course. Why don't we put it on the next ballot and settle this question once and for all. Let the majority win, no matter what.
I see thzt my friend Danny has fired up some conversation. Much of the information posted here, expecially by Rex, is factual and accurate. I moved here in 1987 and have been a member since the first month we moved here. Yes, the golf course has been contracted out at least once that I know of. When Walt Morgan was the pro/greenskeeper/head toilet cleaner and a bunch of other stuff I'm not quite sure what his status was but I think that he was a contract employee of the city making something like $16K a year.

It is not true that every concession at the course failed. Melanie Morrison developed a thriving business there, great food, superior service and a wide variety of choices. She even built a small but thriving catering business off of it. It looks like the current concessionaires are also doing OK. I've eaten out there several times and have been happy. They make a great omlet!

In the city's audited financial report for 2012 the golf course is listed as a city asset valued at $1.556M and low change. So one good question is how do you best utilize an asset that valuable. Danny and I are in agreement that something needs to be done and contracting it out could possibly be one answer but finding a contractor who would lease a golf course which is not making money could be a real problem.

We are working on the problem and intend to bring it up in next Monday's day long budget planning session to be held at the old city hall. We are in agreement tht we will work to bring "renovate the driving range" up to the 2014 gold fourse CIP. We have alread asked the city manager to get us cost figures on replacing the net around the range.

So far as closing it down because the majority of our residents don't use it, consider this. Our city swimming pools cost a lot of money to operate every year with very little return. Should we close them down because the majority of our residents don't use them? The Civic Center? Parks and Rec in its entirety? The answer is obviously a resounding NO. They are quality of life features for our residents to use or not use as they see fit. Why should the golf course be viewed differently?

So far as the course being started by a few private individual who "gave" it to the city goes - not true. The land was deeded to the city by Fort Hood for recreational purposes - I have seen the transfer document. The original nine holes was then built by volunteer labor using borrowed city and county equipment. I wasn't here at the time but do know individuals who were involved in building it. The cart paths were poured quite a few years ago, again using volunteer labor and donated materials - I was out ther for that one. So far as it costing the city "millions" I think that is incorrect, also. In the current audited financial statement the course obligations to the city are listed as around $850K and that is cumlative over the past 15 years.
EOW7

Killeen, TX

#17 Apr 3, 2013
To add the back nine holes cost well over 1 million back in 1998(?) So yes the golf course has ran into the millions to operate. The swimming pools are attended prety well and yes they charge for that, making the cities loss very little each year. And yes they close down for the colder months and use temp labor. That is unlike the Golf course that is a constant drain on city funds. Almost each year we hear about funds being shifted to the course from the general fund because of funding shortfalls. The golf course is 100% different- It is used by a few and generates little. Are you really saying it only cost 850K for 15 years? That is like 56K per yr. The salaries alone or carts replacement are much more. So yes I do honestly believe the course areas should be used for something better- that benefit more. And when can "voluteers" Borrow city equipment? The beginnings of the golf course was a thing of shame and should have been investigated for fraud. I know you enjoy it and yes defending it, but again just a small portion get anthing out of it. So go ahead and "renovate the range" spending more and more while taxpayers are soaked for the cost. Thanks my two cents.
Retired 1SG

Waco, TX

#18 Apr 3, 2013
I used to favor closing it because it was a money pit. But let's face it - if we are to attract any decent large companies to Cove one of the things those companies consider is quality of life.
It is needed. But with some restrictions as to how much money is sunk into it year after year after year.
Could use a bowling alley too.
Chuck Barnwell

Killeen, TX

#19 Apr 4, 2013
I have been a member of Cove Golf Course since 1986. Have spent many hours moving trash, rocks, trees,etc.as a volunteer. At one time the course would close on Wednesday afternoon for a weekly tournament because of the number of people playing. We had hundreds show for the Ken Ambler tournament. The reason, people had an interest in the course. Don,t know what happened to people in charge of city, but over the years they have forgotten about the Golf Course. Can't do much with limited equipment, no money, VERY LIMITED working staff, and most important NO SUPPORT. Would like for the comments made about making money, for those folks to put the city courses around Central Texas making money on this Forum. I believe Zero will be the number. Why not try to support the Cove Course just a little and not be so negative. Now here is the kicker. I live in Killeen.
EOW7

Killeen, TX

#20 Apr 4, 2013
Have you went and looked at it lately? I wish everybody would and I think you will agree- It needs to go. Lets do something that will be useful for more people-Simple. It anyone questions this simple lodgic- lets bring it up for a vote? I will support the winner- no matter what is decided. But I truely do not believe this "money pit" is good for the city. It benefits few and cost a lot.
Retired 1SG wrote:
I used to favor closing it because it was a money pit. But let's face it - if we are to attract any decent large companies to Cove one of the things those companies consider is quality of life.
It is needed. But with some restrictions as to how much money is sunk into it year after year after year.
Could use a bowling alley too.

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