Our position: Commuter rail's benefits can extend far beyond Ce...

[Redogg]

Alan wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually those questions get answered every day on many of the various commuter operations in this country. And in all cases, the answers are always favorable to commuter rail. That is why commuter systems where the State steps up to the plate and properly funds things, continue to grow.
The lastest example is New Mexico's Rail Runner service, which is exceeding the wildest expectations of officials. So much so, they are rushing to complete the next leg of the system.

My questions were specifically about Central Florida Commuter Rail. I don't care what happens in other states. Nobody can look at this plan, ask those questions about it and come to a positive conclusion.

[Redogg]

RAIL SUPPORTER wrote:

ALL you anti rail people should go and take a look at all the other succesfull rail systems already in place. This would only be the first phase and i would hope to one day see branches going from one end of the 408 to the other, with stations along the way that will feed the bus lines on those roads. Or how about to airport, disney universal, Imagine a rail that would take tourist up to wekiva. Now let's think a little further into the future. This rail could be connected all the way to Tampa. ITS CALLED PROGRESS PEOPLE!!!!!!

How would you propose we pay for all of these "phases" to make commuter rail viable? We can't even adequately fund our schools or other basic infrastructure. As I understand it, the state is only going to fund commuter rail for the first few years, after that it's up to local government (property taxes). How are they going to take on this added cost when they are not allowed to raise taxes?

[FL Commuter]

Alan wrote:

<quoted text>
If you can't afford commuter rail, then you surely can't afford the costs that are going to be needed to build and fix all the roads that are going to have to be built in the future, unless Florida does something to improve its rail passenger services.
The only saving grace for many people in South Florida is Tri-Rail. I-95 is a parking lot every morning. Ask anyone who is riding on Tri-Rail, as they get to whiz by everyone sitting in their cars. For some, their work location doesn't permit any choice but the car, but the are also many people too foolish to get out of their car and get on the train. So instead they sit in traffic going nowhere.
And adding more lanes to I-95 will cost you far, far more than having the State pony up the needed funding to keep Tri-Rail running as it should.

I have to disagree with almost everything you have said. Current projections estimate that for each rider of CFL CR, the taxpayers will have to pay $30+. The cost of mass transit is much more expensive than highways. If the taxes paid into the highway trust fund would actually get used for the highways, the FL highways would be in much better shape today. But due to the disfunctional government we have, the highways are a mess. Our highway trust funds are used for mass transit and non-transportation expenses. This is a fact.

FL is in bad shape and unless we dethrone those in office, it is going to get worse.

Note - Tri-Rail in S FL is cutting services because it cannot afford the operating expenses.

CFL-CR is an investment we cannot afford. WE cannot afford Tri-Rail, much less another commuter rail system!!

[Sean Vanity]

FL Rail Transit Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
Congressman John Mica won't let it die. Just because the people of FL have spoken and said no, Mica owes it to CSX to keep it going. Mica's loyalty is to CSX not the people.
Please do not re-elect John Mica. He does not earn the trust or the vote of the people.

Actually the people of Central Florida said yes. It was the Miami and Lakeland out-of-towners and the ambulance chasing lawyers that had it killed in committee. It never went to a vote in the full Florida Senate. The Florida House had also already approved.

[Alan]

Redogg wrote:

<quoted text>
My questions were specifically about Central Florida Commuter Rail. I don't care what happens in other states. Nobody can look at this plan, ask those questions about it and come to a positive conclusion.

And I understand that. My point is that those questions have been asked by concerned citizens in every corner of this country, and without fail the answers are always positive. Orlando and the surrounding area isn't so different from every other major city, that the answers would be different.

Even in places where the car is king, like Texas, commuter rail is working. Orlando will be no different.

If a fair and impartial company was contracted to sort out those questions, the answers will be positive. The problem all too often is that nay sayers hire someone who knows what answers they want, and those who do want transit hire someone who knows what answers they want. Both sides end up inflating their answers to please the group that hired them, while the truth lands some where in the middle.

And the reality is, people will ride the trains and it will have a positive affect on Orlando and its surrounding areas.

If you don't want to look at other states, then look no further than Tri-Rail. People are riding it, that is why all that money was spent to increase service. People are coming out in record numbers to ride Tri-Rail. Only lack of dedicated funding by the State of Florida will change that fact.

[Alan]

FL Commuter wrote:

<quoted text>
I have to disagree with almost everything you have said. Current projections estimate that for each rider of CFL CR, the taxpayers will have to pay $30+. The cost of mass transit is much more expensive than highways. If the taxes paid into the highway trust fund would actually get used for the highways, the FL highways would be in much better shape today. But due to the disfunctional government we have, the highways are a mess. Our highway trust funds are used for mass transit and non-transportation expenses. This is a fact.
FL is in bad shape and unless we dethrone those in office, it is going to get worse.
Note - Tri-Rail in S FL is cutting services because it cannot afford the operating expenses.
CFL-CR is an investment we cannot afford. WE cannot afford Tri-Rail, much less another commuter rail system!!

And you have the right to disagree with everything that I've said. That however doesn't change the facts.

Whose numbers? Most likely the opposition’s numbers, numbers most likely designed to scare people. People cry every day about the Billions given to Amtrak each year. Your annual contribution to Amtrak amounts to about $3 per year. You can't even fill up your gas tank once without contributing more than $3 in taxes to help keep the roads repaired. And that doesn't include the monies that you contribute to the roads via your other taxes like property, income, and sales taxes.

And the cost of mass transit is never more than the cost of a highway. A two track railroad can be built for a fraction of the cost of a 4 lane highway. The difference is that the cost of mass transit is always out in front and visible, while the costs of the highways are hidden in many ways. In 2001 41% of the $133 Billion spent on highways in the US, came from other sources than gas tax. Things like property tax, income tax, and sales tax.

And note that I said highways. That $133 B number does not include local streets, 2 lane highways and such. We are just talking interstate highways. Plus, most people don’t stop to think just how much of the price of gas is tax when they fill up their cars. It just seems less painful than say, getting your property tax bill in the mail, because it’s a smaller amount each time when compared to that property tax bill.

Now I won't disagree that the Florida legislature should stop raiding the highway trust fund, but even if they do it won't totally solve the problem with the highways in the State of Florida. It will help considerably, but it won't solve everything.

As for Tri-Rail, they are only looking at cutting services because the State of Florida is refusing to do what dozens of other States do, that is step up to the plate and properly fund mass transit. The list is long with States that fund mass transit, from California to Oregon, Washington, Utah, Texas, New Mexico, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Tennessee, NY, NJ, CT, Maine, Mass, Penn, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. I don't know why Florida thinks that things should be different.

[John Doe]

Sean Vanity wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually the people of Central Florida said yes. It was the Miami and Lakeland out-of-towners and the ambulance chasing lawyers that had it killed in committee. It never went to a vote in the full Florida Senate. The Florida House had also already approved.

I don't know how long you have lived in CFL, but commuter rail and light rail have been voted down in the past. In this case, the State of FL, the City of Orlando and OCC refused to put CFL-CR to a public referendum because they knew that it would be defeated just like Mobility 20/20 was defeated(which included light rail).

It would be nice if they (Tallahassee/OCC/Orlando) would put CFL-CR on a public referendum for the increased taxes to fund CFL-CR at the state and local levels. This will never happen, because it would never pass and every FL elected official knows it!!

The battle to block bad public policy is never-ending. CFL-CR as proposed is bad public policy and I will continue to oppose it. Just look at Tri-Rail. Apparently, they (SFRTA) are going to cut service because they cannot fund the operating expenses. If that system is in trouble, why would anyone support CFL-CR? Makes no sense.

[FL Commuter]

Alan wrote:

<quoted text>
And you have the right to disagree with everything that I've said. That however doesn't change the facts.
Whose numbers? Most likely the opposition’s numbers, numbers most likely designed to scare people. People cry every day about the Billions given to Amtrak each year. Your annual contribution to Amtrak amounts to about $3 per year. You can't even fill up your gas tank once without contributing more than $3 in taxes to help keep the roads repaired. And that doesn't include the monies that you contribute to the roads via your other taxes like property, income, and sales taxes.
And the cost of mass transit is never more than the cost of a highway. A two track railroad can be built for a fraction of the cost of a 4 lane highway. The difference is that the cost of mass transit is always out in front and visible, while the costs of the highways are hidden in many ways. In 2001 41% of the $133 Billion spent on highways in the US, came from other sources than gas tax. Things like property tax, income tax, and sales tax.
And note that I said highways. That $133 B number does not include local streets, 2 lane highways and such. We are just talking interstate highways. Plus, most people don’t stop to think just how much of the price of gas is tax when they fill up their cars. It just seems less painful than say, getting your property tax bill in the mail, because it’s a smaller amount each time when compared to that property tax bill.
Now I won't disagree that the Florida legislature should stop raiding the highway trust fund, but even if they do it won't totally solve the problem with the highways in the State of Florida. It will help considerably, but it won't solve everything.
As for Tri-Rail, they are only looking at cutting services because the State of Florida is refusing to do what dozens of other States do, that is step up to the plate and properly fund mass transit. The list is long with States that fund mass transit, from California to Oregon, Washington, Utah, Texas, New Mexico, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Tennessee, NY, NJ, CT, Maine, Mass, Penn, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. I don't know why Florida thinks that things should be different.

The expressways are a cash cow to the state of FL. Everyone knows it. Mass Transit is an expense.

Think about this - the private sector is drooling at the chance to buy up the expressways and control the toll taxes and convert freeways into toll roads, BUT, the private sector is no where to be found for owning and operating rail transit or mass transit.

Mass transit is a much bigger tax burden than the roads. Not to mention, mass transit is useless when we need to evacuate an area for hurricanes or other emergencies.

It appears that those who support rail transit do not think about the transportation system beyond their daily commute. They also do not do the math and break down the cost per passenger mile. This is short-sighted. Rail transit in some communities is a good thing. This is not the case for CFL-CR.

I will post some facts and figures with links for verification.

[FL Commuter]

"There are just two problems with mass transit. Nobody uses it, and it costs like hell. Only 4% of Americans take public transportation to work. Even in cities they don't do it. Less than 25% of commuters in the New York metropolitan area use public transportation. Elsewhere it's far less--9.5% in San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, 1.8% in Dallas-Fort Worth. As for total travel in urban parts of America--all the comings and goings for work, school, shopping, etc.--1.7 % of those trips are made on mass transit."

copied from
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/featu...

CFL-CR is not good for CFL.

[bob]

Will someone please explain to me the true definition of rural,i've was led to believe when a city has a area population of around 240,000 people,and the county has a population of 575,000 people,as in the case of lakeland and polk county,you'll think labeling it rural get old.

[Informed]

Redogg wrote:

How about printing statistics about how much public money has been and is being spent per rider on Tri-Rail? How many people in central florida could reliably get to a commuter rail station without driving a car? How long of a commute would it be for the average person to get to a rail station and take the train to where they needed to go?
The answers to these questions are not favorable for those who support commuter rail. That's why you don't hear anything mentioned about them.

What's the cost of gas going to be in the summer, let alone 2010.

There's a question you don't want to answer.

[Redogg]

Alan wrote:

<quoted text>
And I understand that. My point is that those questions have been asked by concerned citizens in every corner of this country, and without fail the answers are always positive. Orlando and the surrounding area isn't so different from every other major city, that the answers would be different.
Even in places where the car is king, like Texas, commuter rail is working. Orlando will be no different.
If a fair and impartial company was contracted to sort out those questions, the answers will be positive. The problem all too often is that nay sayers hire someone who knows what answers they want, and those who do want transit hire someone who knows what answers they want. Both sides end up inflating their answers to please the group that hired them, while the truth lands some where in the middle.
And the reality is, people will ride the trains and it will have a positive affect on Orlando and its surrounding areas.
If you don't want to look at other states, then look no further than Tri-Rail. People are riding it, that is why all that money was spent to increase service. People are coming out in record numbers to ride Tri-Rail. Only lack of dedicated funding by the State of Florida will change that fact.

Nothing you've written is fact. Just opinion. I would be for a rail form of transit that made sense. Commuter rail in Central Florida that will cost billions of dollars, runs just north to south through hundreds of miles of sprawl and is accessible by only a tiny fraction of the population makes no sense at all. This is especially true when there's no way to pay for it.

Come up with a plan that works and you'll have a lot more supporters.

[Redogg]

Informed wrote:

<quoted text>
What's the cost of gas going to be in the summer, let alone 2010.
There's a question you don't want to answer.

My bet is far less than the cost is today. What many less financially minded people fail to understand is that oil is a publicly traded commodity.

We are in the midst of an "oil bubble" if you will. This is not unlike the housing bubble or the tech bubble. What eventually happens when prices run up in a bubble? They generally come crashing down at some point.

As our economy and other economies across the world continue to slow, the need for oil will decline and you'll see people start selling it off. That will translate to much lower prices at the pump.

[John Doe]

Redogg wrote:

<quoted text>
Nothing you've written is fact. Just opinion. I would be for a rail form of transit that made sense. Commuter rail in Central Florida that will cost billions of dollars, runs just north to south through hundreds of miles of sprawl and is accessible by only a tiny fraction of the population makes no sense at all. This is especially true when there's no way to pay for it.
Come up with a plan that works and you'll have a lot more supporters.

Exactly. Most taxpayers are not against mass transit or rail transit. We are against flawed public works projects that cost a lot and benefit a few - mostly political friends.

[James Harris Jr]

Quote Tawny Olore, FDOT commuter-rail project manager, "This is not just about our commuter rail now."
We are extremely fortunate; our leaders have consistently demonstrated vision for our communities. "Where there is no vision, the people perish."
The Central Florida CR project is the vision and backbone of a needed transportation system that will serve all of Florida both now and many years into the future. It has been a vision for many years. Now is the time for action. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. The money is now in hand.
We in Central Florida have been asleep for too many years, delayed road projects too long, now traffic is often nothing less than a nightmare and getting worst. The local citizens and visitors are not going away. Transportation projects are not getting cheaper.
Thank God for U.S. Rep. John L. Mica and others like him with the fortitude, insight, and strategic thinking to help eliminate traffic nightmares and provide alternative modes of transportation in Florida many years in the future. Federal supporters have also come to our rescue and should be highly commended for their commitment to help kick this long needed project into high gear. Now, what is wrong with this picture? There should have been a great celebration. But, instead we are entertaining schedules delays, increasing cost, and project cancellation.
I ask myself, who in the world is in charge and what else do they want? Every rose has thorns. Every great city and town has trains. In fact, I love the sounds of trains passing through downtown Longwood. It’s a sound of progress; it’s a symbol of growth and for CR, it’s recognizing the fact that people are coming and alternated means of transportation is sorely needed.

[Alan]

FL Commuter wrote:

I will post some facts and figures with links for verification.

"There are just two problems with mass transit. Nobody uses it, and it costs like hell. Only 4% of Americans take public transportation to work. Even in cities they don't do it. Less than 25% of commuters in the New York metropolitan area use public transportation. Elsewhere it's far less--9.5% in San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, 1.8% in Dallas-Fort Worth. As for total travel in urban parts of America--all the comings and goings for work, school, shopping, etc.--1.7 % of those trips are made on mass transit."
copied from
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/featu...
CFL-CR is not good for CFL.

First, please note that in the link you've provided are the words "opinionjournal". This is someone's opinion, not fact. People can say whatever they want, that does not make it fact.

Second, I note that the author cites numbers from the Heritage Foundation. They are without a doubt the most conservative foundation on the planet. They have opposed every new transit development in the last 20 to 30 years. They constantly spout numbers that no one, not even they, can substantiate; or numbers that are taken out of context so as to appear alarming.

With one exception, every system that they've opposed has been a rousing success in terms of ridership. That one system failed to meet its predicted ridership numbers in its first two years. Numbers that even I will admit were far too optimistic, but numbers that the system has finally passed.

Now I can’t prove or disprove the number quoted that says only 25% of commuters in NYC use mass transit, since I don’t have access to their specific numbers. But personally I suspect that number is wrong, and that it’s much higher. My quick and unscientific calculations indicate that it’s more like 50%. I base that upon a population of 8,250,567, less 20 % since kids don’t commute to arrive at 6,600,453 potential commuters. That number is probably still very high, since most seniors don’t commuter either. Then I took the ridership numbers for the Subways/buses (see below) and halved that number since most commuters’ ride twice a day, once going to work, once coming home. Fifty percent of 6.6 million commuters is 3.3 million transit riders.

But so what? Who cares who’s numbers are right? Both their numbers and my numbers are irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

Even if it is indeed a fact that only 25 % of commuters in NYC use mass transit, that doesn’t tell the true story. That doesn’t tell you that the trains and buses in NYC and the surrounding areas of Long Island, Westchester County, lower Connecticut, and much of the northern half of New Jersey are standing room only during rush hour.

That doesn’t tell you how many people in this area either don’t have cars, or don’t use them to go to work. Or if they do use the car, that they use it to drive to a train station, rather than their ultimate destination.

And it certainly doesn’t tell you what would happen if we put the 300,000 people who ride the Long Island RR daily, the 190,000 people who ride NJT’s trains daily, the 220,000 people who ride Metro North each day, or the 7,000,000 (yes that’s 7 Million) who ride the subways and buses of NYC each weekday, on the roads. Those numbers can be found at the respective agencies websites and by the way, I didn’t include the numbers for LI buses, CT or Westchester buses, or NJT buses. The only buses included are NYC, since they don’t separate those numbers from the subways. All other numbers are rail only!

[Alan]

Continued:

As it stands right now, NYC does not rank in the top ten cities for most time lost while commuting to work in traffic. Think about that, NYC is the largest population center in the US, and it doesn’t rank in the top 10 for most time lost sitting in a car to commute to work. That alone tells you that mass transit works! And NYC doesn’t have 8 lane freeways, or 10 lane freeways, or even 12 lane freeways like many other major cites. NYC has 6 lane freeways at maximum. NYC can’t handle having 5% more commuters on its roads, much less 25% more commuters on its roads, and again that assumes that those numbers cited by the Heritage Foundation are even true. That’s why the NYC area continues to expand its mass transit operations.

To be fair, I’m not saying that you can’t find traffic jams in NYC. You most surely can. But they aren’t as bad as the traffic jams in most other major cities in this country. And that is thanks to mass transit.

As for the rest of the low numbers cited, if indeed they are true and again I’m not sure of that considering the source, one must consider that those other cities threw away their mass transit systems 40+ years ago. However, they all see the need for rebuilding those systems and they are making comebacks each and every year. Those numbers will continue to climb as people are finally given an alternative to their cars.

Did you know that a highway moves 3,260 people per lane per hour; a subway can move 60,000 to 80,000 people per track per hour.

Next, the State of New Jersey plans to spend over $40 million to replace one bridge on a major highway this year. I choose NJ, just because I happened to have a link for them having looked up some other recent information unrelated to this issue. But you can view the press release at the link below.

http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/p...

That’s for one bridge and interchange that’s less than 1/8th of a mile. It’s a bit less than one tenth what Florida proposed to spend for what’s 60+ miles of commuter rail. And the Florida numbers include buying the tracks, the trains, improving stations, and a few other things. The Florida commuter rail, outside of an annual subsidy to keep things running, will probably last for 30 or more years. That bridge, probably 10 to 20 at most.
.
That works out to about $11 million per mile of commuter rail vs.$40 million for less than a mile of road. So no, it is not cheaper to build roads than commuter rail.

[Alan]

Continued:

I also note that they state that “there isn't a single light rail transit system in America in which fares paid by the passengers cover the cost of their own rides “. That is true. But guess what? There hasn’t been a single system in the US that was ever designed or expected to cover the cost of a person’s ride in the last 30 years. There hasn’t been a single road or highway designed either, where those using it were expected to cover the cost of their ride.

Which brings us to those highways that you’re so eager to sell. New Jersey though about doing that, but the voter’s wisely rejected that idea. Mind you NJ still has major funding issues that sooner or later the voters are going to have to deal with, since the shot down that plan. But that’s neither here nor there for the topic at hand.

The reality is that private operators are willing to buy highways because they sense big bucks to be earned. One of two things is going to happen. Either the tolls will become so outrageous that people will be unable to afford them, or the States will have to step back in and subsidize those private operators to keep them from raising the tolls.

Just wait until Florida sells I-4 and it costs you $20 in tolls to go from Winter Park to Orlando one way, and that’s before you fill up your car with gas costing $5 to $6 or more per gallon. Then come back and let me know how happy you are that the commuter rail plan got shot down.

Despite what the Heritage Foundation would like you to believe, it is a proven fact that if a city/state build commuter rail, people will use it. If a city like Salt Lake City with a population of 178,858 can build both commuter rail and light rail systems that see heavy use, although I will admit that the commuter rail has only been running about a month now, then the city of Orlando with a population of 220,186 can certainly use and benefit from doing the same. And Orlando has a much greater population outside Orlando proper along the I-4 corridor, than does Salt Lake City outside the city limits.

[Sean Vanity]

John Doe wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't know how long you have lived in CFL, but commuter rail and light rail have been voted down in the past. In this case, the State of FL, the City of Orlando and OCC refused to put CFL-CR to a public referendum because they knew that it would be defeated just like Mobility 20/20 was defeated(which included light rail).
It would be nice if they (Tallahassee/OCC/Orlando) would put CFL-CR on a public referendum for the increased taxes to fund CFL-CR at the state and local levels. This will never happen, because it would never pass and every FL elected official knows it!!
The battle to block bad public policy is never-ending. CFL-CR as proposed is bad public policy and I will continue to oppose it. Just look at Tri-Rail. Apparently, they (SFRTA) are going to cut service because they cannot fund the operating expenses. If that system is in trouble, why would anyone support CFL-CR? Makes no sense.

44 years actually. All in the Winter Park & Casselberry area and you are correct it has been voted down in the past. However most recently it was approved. It reasons in was defeated in committee were not the reasons that you have stated. It was defeated because 1) the legislaters in the Miami area were worried it might lessen avail funding for their system. 2) Legislators in Lakeland do not wnat more freight trains coming through their area. and 3) most importantly, the ambulance chasers want to be able to sue CSX Transportation for possible commuter rail accidents.

In addition, the people in Florida did approve a Constitutional amendment approving high-speed rail in Florida.

[CSX CFL CR Scambuster]

Central Florida Taxpayers beware. Rail transit will result in major tax increases.

Seattle RAT proposed tax increase 90% for rail transit and 10% roads.

www.KilltheRatTax.org

Who is paying for CSX-CFL CR?

Who is using the CSX-CFL CR?