Several in Shippensburg charged with fake IDs

Full story: Public Opinion

State police and Shippensburg borough police cited several for fake IDs over the extended St.
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1 - 20 of 22 Comments Last updated Mar 22, 2011
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Since: Jan 11

Chambersburg, PA

#1 Mar 21, 2011
Drinking age should be 18.

Either you're an adult or you're not.
Big B

Kintnersville, PA

#2 Mar 21, 2011
18 year olds are not responsible enough to drink.do you really wanna see more DUI's??
seamore

Greencastle, PA

#3 Mar 21, 2011
I agree that most 18 year olds are not responsible enough to drink, however I believe that military should be allowed to drink at 18. They can go to war and fight for and possibly die for this country but they cannot have a legal drink with their buddies when they are home station! How crazy does that sound, we arm them machine guns and other weapons yet cannot trust them with alcohol...crazy!

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#4 Mar 21, 2011
Someone explain to me WHY 18 year olds are not responsible enough to drink?

Not responsible compared to - 21 year olds? Perhaps if our society didn't simultaneously demonize and glorify alcohol, we wouldn't have as many problems. It has nothing - and I mean NOTHING - to do with age.

Clayton is absolutely right - if you're 18 and can vote, fight for your country's freedom and be tried as an adult, then you should be trusted to drink responsibly. Having the cut-off 21 does not reduce DUI's - it just makes you feel better about it. MADD has a powerful lobby and they have convinced you of some non-truths.

When I read about 20-year-olds being arrested for "underage drinking," I cringe at how absurd that is. And usually it's unsafe drinking - on college compuses, where drinking is part of the social scene (a fact that will never change), 18-20 year old adults drink in unsafe, private environments that leads to binge drinking and a generally unhealthy approach toward alcohol.

Most states have underage drinking exceptions that allow 18-20 year olds to drink at home with parental consent (PA is, of course, not one of them).

My parents taught me responsible drinking habits - moderation, and the enjoyment of alcohol and a compliment to a meal or to enjoy time with friends. To know my limits, and to never have too much. Before I even got to college, I had a respect for alcohol that many of my classmates didn't - because they had never been exposed to it before.

If you're truly interested in getting some facts about drinking - both underage or otherwise, I highly suggest you look into SUNY Potdam's comprehensive website on Alcohol Problems and Solutions:

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/index.html

I'd love to discuss this with someone who is interested in considering the facts, rather than their own personal feelings about alcohol.
Dan the Man

Abington, PA

#5 Mar 21, 2011
Effington wrote:
Someone explain to me WHY 18 year olds are not responsible enough to drink?
Not responsible compared to - 21 year olds? Perhaps if our society didn't simultaneously demonize and glorify alcohol, we wouldn't have as many problems. It has nothing - and I mean NOTHING - to do with age.
Clayton is absolutely right - if you're 18 and can vote, fight for your country's freedom and be tried as an adult, then you should be trusted to drink responsibly. Having the cut-off 21 does not reduce DUI's - it just makes you feel better about it. MADD has a powerful lobby and they have convinced you of some non-truths.
When I read about 20-year-olds being arrested for "underage drinking," I cringe at how absurd that is. And usually it's unsafe drinking - on college compuses, where drinking is part of the social scene (a fact that will never change), 18-20 year old adults drink in unsafe, private environments that leads to binge drinking and a generally unhealthy approach toward alcohol.
Most states have underage drinking exceptions that allow 18-20 year olds to drink at home with parental consent (PA is, of course, not one of them).
My parents taught me responsible drinking habits - moderation, and the enjoyment of alcohol and a compliment to a meal or to enjoy time with friends. To know my limits, and to never have too much. Before I even got to college, I had a respect for alcohol that many of my classmates didn't - because they had never been exposed to it before.
If you're truly interested in getting some facts about drinking - both underage or otherwise, I highly suggest you look into SUNY Potdam's comprehensive website on Alcohol Problems and Solutions:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/index.html
I'd love to discuss this with someone who is interested in considering the facts, rather than their own personal feelings about alcohol.
It makes intuitive sense that introducing alcohol to children when they are young (watered down) as part of a meal will lead to a sensible, responsible view of alcohol. Conversely, it seems obvious that demonizing alcohol and preventing kids from any access whatsoever will lead to secret drinking, binge drinking, and irresponsible use.

The question I have is - is there any empiric evidence that supports this? Have there been any sorts of scientific studies of cultural drinking practices and alcohol abuse? I didn't immediately see any on the link you provided, but maybe they are there.
Dan the Man

Abington, PA

#6 Mar 21, 2011
Looks like some good info here:

http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html

But it isn't very encouraging for the good old U.S. of A. We're descended from Puritans afterall, and if almost 300 years later we still have the same backward view of alcohol, I don't see how it ever can be changed to a healthy one.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#7 Mar 21, 2011
Dan the Man wrote:
<quoted text>
It makes intuitive sense that introducing alcohol to children when they are young (watered down) as part of a meal will lead to a sensible, responsible view of alcohol. Conversely, it seems obvious that demonizing alcohol and preventing kids from any access whatsoever will lead to secret drinking, binge drinking, and irresponsible use.
The question I have is - is there any empiric evidence that supports this? Have there been any sorts of scientific studies of cultural drinking practices and alcohol abuse? I didn't immediately see any on the link you provided, but maybe they are there.
I don't mean children - like 1/10 solution of whisky and milk in baby's bottle (I know that's not what you meant, but it's hilariously what I thought of). What I mean is that it's parents who should be able to decide when their kids are responsible enough to simply try alcohol. My parents let me have wine with dinner (special occasions only) starting around when I was 16. It was by no means fun-filled free-for-all. It was an exercise in responsibility and moderation - one that I have taken with me into adulthood.

There is information regarding this here: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/UnderageDrin...

There is proof right across the pond - Europe's non-puritanical approach to alcohol isn't that it's a sinful and should be avoided, but that it's simply a part of life and should be enjoyed responsibly. Europe's drinking ages are lower and their alcohol-related problems are fewers - but that's based more on culture than legality. It's about adopting a similar respect-for-alcohol approach here, rather than the abstinence-only until 21, but hey, here are hundreds of beer commercials extolling the virtues (aka, awesomeness) of drinking.

From the link:

"But many groups around the world have learned how to consume alcohol widely with almost no problems. Those familiar to most Americans include Italians, Jews, and Greeks. The success of such groups has three parts: 1) beliefs about the substance of alcohol, 2) the act of drinking, and 3) education about drinking.

In these successful groups:

the substance of alcohol is seen as neutral. It is neither a terrible poison nor is it a magic substance that can transform people into what they would like to be
The act of drinking is seen as natural and normal. While there is little or no social pressure to drink, there is absolutely no tolerance for abusive drinking
Education about alcohol starts early and starts in the home. Young people are taught -- through their parents' good example and under their supervision -- that if they drink, they must do so moderately and responsibly 24"

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#8 Mar 21, 2011
Dan the Man wrote:
Looks like some good info here:
http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html
But it isn't very encouraging for the good old U.S. of A. We're descended from Puritans afterall, and if almost 300 years later we still have the same backward view of alcohol, I don't see how it ever can be changed to a healthy one.
It can change - but first I believe some laws concerning underage drinking need to be re-evaluated. If our approach continues to be "abstain until 21" then we will continue to see alcohol abuse by young people - and almost exclusively by 18-20 year olds who do so privately and in an unsafe environment.

Teenage drinking - as seen in an article on the site I listed - is at an all time low.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/InTheNews/Un...

Why? I think the allure of alcohol for young people isn't quite as exotic as it once was. Now's the time to strike while the iron is hot - we can change perceptions, but I think the drinking age needs to be lowered to 19 - along with stiff penalties for its abuse.
Ship

Chambersburg, PA

#9 Mar 21, 2011
I think its a well known fact that there is no "real" drinking age in most European countries.
From a very early age, children are aware of the effects of alchohol and they learn to control themselves before they are "out on their own".

There is also a ZERO tolerance for drunken driving, in these countries.

Personally, if an individual can be drafted or vote at 18, then it should be legal to consume alchohol. If they can take a bullet to protect our freedom, let's have a "legal" beer together.

When we teach our children about the effects of alchohol consumption, part of that "education" should be visiting a hospital where a drunk driver is recovering from a near death crash, or the morgue where they aren't recovering, to show some of the consequences of being stupid when they drink.

Kids are going to drink, whether it's legal or not.
Dan the Man

Abington, PA

#10 Mar 21, 2011
Effington wrote:
<quoted text>
It can change - but first I believe some laws concerning underage drinking need to be re-evaluated. If our approach continues to be "abstain until 21" then we will continue to see alcohol abuse by young people - and almost exclusively by 18-20 year olds who do so privately and in an unsafe environment.
Teenage drinking - as seen in an article on the site I listed - is at an all time low.
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/InTheNews/Un...
Why? I think the allure of alcohol for young people isn't quite as exotic as it once was. Now's the time to strike while the iron is hot - we can change perceptions, but I think the drinking age needs to be lowered to 19 - along with stiff penalties for its abuse.
For such a cynical guy, you are much more optimistic about this than I am. Neither of us will live to see a lowered drinking age, much less a culture that integrates healthy drinking of alcohol into young people's lives.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#11 Mar 21, 2011
Ship wrote:
Kids are going to drink, whether it's legal or not.
I think that's the fact people like to keep their heads in the sand over. If you can't admit that young people WILL drink, whether we like it or not, you can't teach responsible drinking habits. Abstinence Only education and legislation simply does not - and will never - work, whether it's sex or alcohol.

The thing is, neither sex or alcohol have to be such bad things - without getting into a moral or philosophical debate. Giving young people the power and opportunity to make their own choices, given the information they need to make them, would surprise a lot of people. I think by and large, they would make responsible decisions.

http://www.amethystinitiative.org/

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#12 Mar 21, 2011
Dan the Man wrote:
<quoted text>
For such a cynical guy, you are much more optimistic about this than I am. Neither of us will live to see a lowered drinking age, much less a culture that integrates healthy drinking of alcohol into young people's lives.
Hmm... I think you're probably right, and perhaps you're right about my cynicism - I'm tired of debating things that I can't change or that have little effect on my daily life. This is certainly one of them. But I am optimistic that there are a lot of people who feel the same way I do, including many University presidents in the US. The're pushing hard for common sense alcohol legislation and a lowered drinking age. Unfortunately, most people over 21 are in favor of the current drinking age and that's largely due to MADD's successful campaign to convince us its necessary.

In fact, with underage drinking problems in this country at an all time low, you would think it's time to just let sleeping dogs lie. I'd much rather see the decriminalization of drugs, the legalization of gay marriage (I know they just censored the common term for homosexuals), and better enforcement of the separation of church and state.

But I digress, you gotta pick and choose. I'm largely bowing out of political debates, but I still care strongly for the issues.
Yup

Carlisle, PA

#13 Mar 21, 2011
How many of them were SU Profs??? LOL!
soldiermom

United States

#14 Mar 21, 2011
how can you be charged for retail theft when the booze wasnt even bought because teh id would not go thru duh
soldiermom

United States

#15 Mar 21, 2011
yea the law says if ur 18 ur an adult but yet tehy say u cant drink till ur 21 i agree are you an adult at 18 or not the laws can be so stupid not taht i think anyone age 18 should drink its jsut a point fo the law saying they are 18 they are an adult

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#16 Mar 21, 2011
soldiermom wrote:
yea the law says if ur 18 ur an adult but yet tehy say u cant drink till ur 21 i agree are you an adult at 18 or not the laws can be so stupid not taht i think anyone age 18 should drink its jsut a point fo the law saying they are 18 they are an adult
Anyone mind translating this for me?
BadKarma

State College, PA

#17 Mar 21, 2011
They needed those fake ID's! How else were they going to buy that booze? Come on!!!!

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#18 Mar 21, 2011
How stupid can you be trying to use these at a State Store though? Of course they swipe the license and of course it's not going to work. You use a fake ID to get into a crowded bar where they just glance at the thing. Not get swiped into a system - I thought that was common sense.

The point of the fake ID is to go out and have fun with your friends who are of age. Not buy a bottle of vodka and hole up in your room.
Hayseed

Birdsboro, PA

#19 Mar 21, 2011
Back when I was kid, fake id was basically any license with a name and picture on it. We didn't have the elaborate watermark cards with holograms. There were several times when a clerk would look at my out-of state (because that's where we got them) id, shake his head and sell the beer. When I was 17, I had a Florida ID that featured a bearded 30-something man with thick glasses... rediculous.
If you want to change the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984, do it by introducing legislation to ammend the law. Continuing to break the law by under age drinking is just stupid. Do you really think a cop wants to hear a lame argument from a stressed out college student or serviceman? His job is to arrest offenders. He's not going to be remiss on your behalf.
Breaking that law is no different than prostitution. You can't do it just because you're 18 and it's your body. You can't even do that ilegally in Nevada unless it's in particular counties and the government gets a huge cut.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#20 Mar 21, 2011
Hayseed, I have to take some issue with your comparison of "underage" drinking and prostitution (and, quite frankly, I think prostitution should be legal but that's another argument). But it is an apt comparison of a stupid, useless law...

You see, people will drink underage, just as women will sell their bodies. No law is going to stop it - but having it on the books makes people feel better. That's why argue both should be legal - I'm sick of feel-good legislation.

If police and college officials could spend less time and energy chasing around 19-20 year old ADULTS who are drinking, then not only would money be saved, but they could probably exert a little more energy on important things. Things that matter.

I drank underage, and I didn't get caught - because I wasn't stupid. Then again, like you pointed out, it's being taken more seriously now. People want to feel like this stupid law's being enforced, so, once again politics prevails and it's more important to make people feel better than it is to actually protect people.

My point is - having it illegal for 18-20 year olds to drinking isn't solving any problems. And it's creating a few others.

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