knuckles

King George, VA

#21 Mar 2, 2013
Criminal Bch Prop Owner wrote:
It would be nice if people knew both sides of the story/truth. A handful of PWSCC Board members (cronies) bully the rest. They just chose the wrong "man" to bully. This suit against the PWSCC Board is long overdue! No one had the guts to stand up to them until Mr. Howe, III moved here. Mr. Howe, III is doing this for the benefit of all of Westmoreland Shores and everyone will benefit. Please get informed.
cronies and bullies? I thought most of pwscc board is new, based on last what I read. and isn't what Mr. Howe iii suing about happened 40 years ago? if most Westmoreland shores homeowners said they were against FH III would he stop? I doubt it.
Another River

Richmond, VA

#22 Mar 2, 2013
Criminal Bch Prop Owner wrote:
It would be nice if people knew both sides of the story/truth. A handful of PWSCC Board members (cronies) bully the rest. They just chose the wrong "man" to bully. This suit against the PWSCC Board is long overdue! No one had the guts to stand up to them until Mr. Howe, III moved here. Mr. Howe, III is doing this for the benefit of all of Westmoreland Shores and everyone will benefit. Please get informed.
I am not sure that you truly know the truth since you mention
"PWSCC Board members (cronies) bully the rest". Howe is the Bully. He is attempting to strip all the PWSCC owners from using beach and river access that has been available to them since inception. Howe wants to own the beach in front of his house and "garage" (which does not comply to the building code - which he somehow circumvented the county code when he built it).

“Low Road”

Since: Dec 09

Colonial Beach and Wash DC

#23 Mar 2, 2013
Criminal Bch Prop Owner wrote:
It would be nice if people knew both sides of the story/truth. A handful of PWSCC Board members (cronies) bully the rest. They just chose the wrong "man" to bully. This suit against the PWSCC Board is long overdue! No one had the guts to stand up to them until Mr. Howe, III moved here. Mr. Howe, III is doing this for the benefit of all of Westmoreland Shores and everyone will benefit. Please get informed.
Time will tell, and I'd like to see the "other side" you speak of.
I do not see one side wins a benefit to everyone, Otherwise lawyers would not be involved :) Color me 477/68/NDIF, I'd add "gone" but this is interesting so I'll hang for a bit :)
wtcsret

Goose Creek, SC

#24 Mar 2, 2013
I found the "other side" in the March newsletter. I have found someone MORE arrogant then the POTUS, Howe III. <snip> :) This WILL be interesting!
That from 477/68/NDIF :)
PWSCC Resident

King George, VA

#25 Mar 3, 2013
wtcsret wrote:
I found the "other side" in the March newsletter. I have found someone MORE arrogant then the POTUS, Howe III. <snip> :) This WILL be interesting!
That from 477/68/NDIF :)
You are so right! Arrogant and entitlement-focused! Gimme, gimme, gimme. Howe is a current councilman for the city of fredericksburg; however he lists his business address as 390 shore drive in CB. Interesting.
Sun

Silver Spring, MD

#26 Mar 3, 2013
THurston Howell III , same one that used to work for Dominion VA Power. Got a beef with utilities?

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#27 Mar 3, 2013
Resident of PWSCC wrote:
Everyone needs to understand that the lawsuit leveled against PWSCC is by the one and only Frederic Howe III, a residident of Fredericksburg, VA and failed Mayoral candidate. Mr. Howe purchased his Colonial Beach property in 2010 which is located within the PWSCC association; an association that has been in PEACEFUL existence for over 50 years and now he wants to change the rules of this community and seeks legal dissolution of the PWSCC for his personal motivation and (financial?) gain. Mr. Howe is not a full time resident of Colonial Beach! I encourage everyone to read the legal documents located on the PWSCC website and talk to members of the PWSCC homeowners association that have been paying annual dues for many many years and supporting this community for the long term. Now, we have a part- time resident trying to destroy the very fabric of our community that has been standing shoulder to shoulder for over 50 years. And, once we allow this type of cancer to get a foot hold in CB, we have sold out. Folks, get involved! Don't let this happen to us. Colonial Beach is special. We deserve better. There has never been a better time or greater cause to get involved. Don't let Howe set a precedent in our community that could become a watershed for any other left wing, land grabbing, lawsuit hungry nut job.
Spare me your personal disdain for Fred Howe and the fact that you don't like so-called "come here's", part-timers, people who haven't owned their property as long as you, etc... I am all of the above, and to be honest, I'm sick and tired of people like you asserting that you're better than me. What are you trying to convince me of? What do you want me to do about it? Spell it out for me. Why should I spend my time going to the website and rifling through a bunch of legal documents? Because you hate Fred Howe or because you and I as homeowners in Westmoreland and Potomac Shores stand to lose something if he wins?

So I'll ask the question very clearly. What is the issue at stake and what are the consequences if Fred wins and the association loses? I look forward to your answer. Thanks.
knuckles

King George, VA

#28 Mar 3, 2013
Clean Up Your Town wrote:
<quoted text>
Spare me your personal disdain for Fred Howe and the fact that you don't like so-called "come here's", part-timers, people who haven't owned their property as long as you, etc... I'm sick and tired of people like you asserting that you're better than me. What are you trying to convince me of? Spell it out for me. Because you hate Fred Howe or because you and I as homeowners in Westmoreland and Potomac Shores stand to lose something if he wins?
So I'll ask the question very clearly. What is the issue at stake and what are the consequences if Fred wins and the association loses? I look forward to your answer. Thanks.
I'm a 'come here' as well, and don't have the time or energy to hate anyone, hard enough to just live peace ably in this day and age. In reading the court docs as best as I can:

FH III wants his beach front, rights he never had, rights he didn't have when he bought his property in 2010, and no one EXCEPT THE COMMUNITY has had since 1959/1972. He is suing to get that back, for personal gain. To do this he says the association was created wrong, Potomac Shores should not be part of Westmoreland Shores, the association should not have spent $13,000 to save the community $130,000, that Potomac Shores homeowner's trespass on what is rightfully his, the safe swim area that keeps our kids safe is illegal, and he has to wait too long to use the community's assets.

What does the community lose?$200K for FH III pain and suffering. Loss of beach (so no one in community can use it), loss of community center, loss of ramp and marina. Destruction of association and all the good things it has done, bullies and cronies aside. As noted, courts and lawyers will decide, which given costs, might destroy the community anyway, but that is probably part of FH III's plan. But that is the way society works today, sue and see what happens. It is truly sad.

“C. Green”

Since: Sep 12

Colonial Beach

#29 Mar 3, 2013
Straight from the- who gives a poop department: King George is not in the Washington Metropolitan Statistical Area.

Guess you will have to put me into that infamous category of “not from here”. In fact, I am from the Wash MSA. To be more precise, from the very heart of the empire-born in DC. Being a sub-person troll like beast, spending most of my time under a bridge, waiting for hapless “from here’s”, I got to say. I have never sued anyone.

The folks in Westmoreland Shores have my sympathy. Been there, done that. Got dragged into court because I was on the board of directors for a HOA association. Eventually, it was dismissed. However, all of the directors individually and the HOA incurred considerable legal expenses defending ourselves. We tried to make a motion, that the lawsuit was frivolous,(if so ruled, loser pays), because the plaintiff, filing as Pro-Se, had made a living suing individuals, companies and organizations. Our motion was denied on the grounds that the court did not want to discourage the public from using the legal system.

It will in interesting to see which side prevails, my guess, with the burden on the plaintiff, 200k in pain and suffering is about $199,999 too much. Only winner in this contest, the Bar Association.
Crazy

Springfield, VA

#30 Mar 3, 2013
So I , a resident of Westmoreland shores will lose the right to use the beach in front of Howe's property?
knuckles

King George, VA

#31 Mar 3, 2013
Crazy wrote:
So I , a resident of Westmoreland shores will lose the right to use the beach in front of Howe's property?
Yes.

Point of the lawsuit is for private landowner's (Howe and Hiter) to get back the riparian rights to their property and all the community property, given up in 1959. It will go back to being private beaches, so residents will lose the right to use the beach.
Crazy

Springfield, VA

#32 Mar 3, 2013
That is terrible.
wtcsret

Goose Creek, SC

#33 Mar 3, 2013
knuckles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes.
Point of the lawsuit is for private landowner's (Howe and Hiter) to get back the riparian rights to their property and all the community property, given up in 1959. It will go back to being private beaches, so residents will lose the right to use the beach.
A geogaphic area is dynamic, the county could or the corporation could extend what is Westmorland shores to encompass like a town does an annex. As long as the area is called Westmorland shores the covenant should be satisfied. You would not want to extend beyond what can be supported. I somehow feel overextension is not the problem :) This from 477/68/NDIF

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#34 Mar 4, 2013
knuckles wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm a 'come here' as well, and don't have the time or energy to hate anyone, hard enough to just live peace ably in this day and age. In reading the court docs as best as I can:
FH III wants his beach front, rights he never had, rights he didn't have when he bought his property in 2010, and no one EXCEPT THE COMMUNITY has had since 1959/1972. He is suing to get that back, for personal gain. To do this he says the association was created wrong, Potomac Shores should not be part of Westmoreland Shores, the association should not have spent $13,000 to save the community $130,000, that Potomac Shores homeowner's trespass on what is rightfully his, the safe swim area that keeps our kids safe is illegal, and he has to wait too long to use the community's assets.
What does the community lose?$200K for FH III pain and suffering. Loss of beach (so no one in community can use it), loss of community center, loss of ramp and marina. Destruction of association and all the good things it has done, bullies and cronies aside. As noted, courts and lawyers will decide, which given costs, might destroy the community anyway, but that is probably part of FH III's plan. But that is the way society works today, sue and see what happens. It is truly sad.
No misinformation please. My reading is that he wants to break up the association and reserve use of the beach, boat ramp, marina, and community center to Westmoreland Shores owners only. It does not say he wants to take these things away from THAT community or to claim his stretch of beach as his own. I'm not agreeing with his stance, but you need to be honest with us regarding what this is all about.

How many homes are in Westmoreland Shores and how many are in Potomac Shores? He claims that allowing Potomac Shores residents to use these amenities presents some kind of burden. I've personally never seen a huge wait for the boat ramp or large crowds on the beach in front of his house. There seem to be available marina slips and the clubhouse is rarely ever rented out. So I don't buy his argument that Potomac Shores residents strain the overall resources.

What's up with his claim that VMRC agreed to hold off on the swim buoys until this was resolved, but that the association circumvented the approval process by going to VDGIF? Is this true? Someone please explain.

Someone posted earlier that there was another side to the issue. That's the way it is with most things in life. So far, opponents of Fred, I don't feel that you've been completely honest with us. Let's get the other side of the issue from someone please.
Resident

King George, VA

#35 Mar 4, 2013
Clean Up Your Town wrote:
<quoted text>
No misinformation please. My reading is that he wants to break up the association and reserve use of the beach, boat ramp, marina, and community center to Westmoreland Shores owners only. It does not say he wants to take these things away from THAT community or to claim his stretch of beach as his own. I'm not agreeing with his stance, but you need to be honest with us regarding what this is all about.
How many homes are in Westmoreland Shores and how many are in Potomac Shores? He claims that allowing Potomac Shores residents to use these amenities presents some kind of burden. I've personally never seen a huge wait for the boat ramp or large crowds on the beach in front of his house. There seem to be available marina slips and the clubhouse is rarely ever rented out. So I don't buy his argument that Potomac Shores residents strain the overall resources.
What's up with his claim that VMRC agreed to hold off on the swim buoys until this was resolved, but that the association circumvented the approval process by going to VDGIF? Is this true? Someone please explain.
Someone posted earlier that there was another side to the issue. That's the way it is with most things in life. So far, opponents of Fred, I don't feel that you've been completely honest with us. Let's get the other side of the issue from someone please.
All of the information is at the PWSCC website. I think what concerns the homeowners in the Potomac shores part of the neighborhood is pretty plain, if Fred gets his way that only Westmoreland shores can access any of the things listed, where is the Community Center, Boat ramp, Marina, Beach access or even beach for that matter for Potomac shores residents? People can twist,spin,add to or take away anything they wish to this story, but at the end of the day, it will affect over half of a "Neighborhood" that has had all of this available to them for decades. Why not work together as a neighborhood and stop trying to divide it?
Yet Another Concerned Res

King George, VA

#36 Mar 4, 2013
Clean Up Your Town wrote:
<quoted text>
No misinformation please. My reading is that he wants to break up the association and reserve use of the beach, boat ramp, marina, and community center to Westmoreland Shores owners only. It does not say he wants to take these things away from THAT community or to claim his stretch of beach as his own. I'm not agreeing with his stance, but you need to be honest with us regarding what this is all about.
How many homes are in Westmoreland Shores and how many are in Potomac Shores? He claims that allowing Potomac Shores residents to use these amenities presents some kind of burden. I've personally never seen a huge wait for the boat ramp or large crowds on the beach in front of his house. There seem to be available marina slips and the clubhouse is rarely ever rented out. So I don't buy his argument that Potomac Shores residents strain the overall resources.
What's up with his claim that VMRC agreed to hold off on the swim buoys until this was resolved, but that the association circumvented the approval process by going to VDGIF? Is this true? Someone please explain.
In reading the docs, if you look at Exhibit B, Potomac Shores has always been a part of Westmoreland Shores. I once saw meeting minutes in historical documents from 1957 are titled Potomac-Westmoreland Shores Civic Association which became Civic Corporation in 1962. So what was done wrong? Original trustees, Barracks and the like, who owned property in both neighborhoods, deeded over the community properties in the trust of the association in 1972, since they were getting on in years, and wanted to PRESERVE the community. One of the original trustees had moved to Florida and could not be located, so Howe is questioning all of that. What is his ultimate intent? I would guess only he knows.

Regarding Safe Swim Area, the community voted to get this in place to protect swimmers. Interestingly, I understand that Howe signed the original petition to get this done. Perhaps the board can post this document on its website. It became a problem when a survey was done by VMRC and found that non permitted mooring balls were in waters in front of beach and needed to be removed. Howe had two, Hiter had two. Ultimately, board did what the community, including Howe, asked it to do. Nothing was circumvented if in fact VDGIF controls that water and not VMRC. This is VDGIF's position and so far VMRC has not challenged that position. The association did as it was directed.

But opinions abound, and at this point, regardless of the court of public opinion, the court of Westmoreland County will make decisions that should probably have been done within the community. Board is volunteers, in mostly thankless positions that try to do the best they can. At least that's what I see. And the thanks they do get is defending the community against lawsuits. I for one wish them luck, and hopefully they will let us know what we can do to help resolve all this. Thanks for my two minutes.
Calling all FOFs

Alexandria, VA

#37 Mar 4, 2013
Clean Up Your Town wrote:
<quoted text>
No misinformation please. My reading is that he wants to break up the association and reserve use of the beach, boat ramp, marina, and community center to Westmoreland Shores owners only. It does not say he wants to take these things away from THAT community or to claim his stretch of beach as his own. I'm not agreeing with his stance, but you need to be honest with us regarding what this is all about.
How many homes are in Westmoreland Shores and how many are in Potomac Shores? He claims that allowing Potomac Shores residents to use these amenities presents some kind of burden. I've personally never seen a huge wait for the boat ramp or large crowds on the beach in front of his house. There seem to be available marina slips and the clubhouse is rarely ever rented out. So I don't buy his argument that Potomac Shores residents strain the overall resources.
What's up with his claim that VMRC agreed to hold off on the swim buoys until this was resolved, but that the association circumvented the approval process by going to VDGIF? Is this true? Someone please explain.
Someone posted earlier that there was another side to the issue. That's the way it is with most things in life. So far, opponents of Fred, I don't feel that you've been completely honest with us. Let's get the other side of the issue from someone please.
Please all Friends of Fred (FOF) speak up! What's the real beef here?
wtcsret

Goose Creek, SC

#38 Mar 4, 2013
The suit speaks for itself. If you can not comprehend it have a lawyer explain it. Fred will LOSE a LOT of friends if he prevails as written.
That's from 477 miles away, 68 years old and no dog in the fight.:) It's all about human nature and self interest, I love them both! Oh! easy money is in there somewhere too :)
Sun

Temple Hills, MD

#39 Mar 4, 2013
Bad fred
Please join the PWSCC

Alexandria, VA

#40 Mar 5, 2013
wtcsret wrote:
The suit speaks for itself. If you can not comprehend it have a lawyer explain it. Fred will LOSE a LOT of friends if he prevails as written.
That's from 477 miles away, 68 years old and no dog in the fight.:) It's all about human nature and self interest, I love them both! Oh! easy money is in there somewhere too :)
Easy money is probably the most alarming aspect of the lawsuit. If the lawsuit prevails, the monetary damages sought are $200K. If courts award these damages to FH III, it will more than likely force the PWSCC to liquidate its assets (marina, clubhouse, etc). It is my understanding that their are approx 400 homes in the westmoreland and Potomac shores association, but not all are dues paying members of the PWSCC.(i think there are currently about 125 members, but would need the PWSCC board to confirm). There is a membership drive planned at the clubhouse on March 17 & 23. Membership is only $40/yr. All 400 homes in the PWSCC neighborhood have benefited from the PWSCC HOA's successful campaign to block water rate increases. I encourage all homeowners to show support to PWSCC by joining the PWSCC if not already a member to continue this type of advocacy. Lets show our strength in numbers. Homeowners have everything to lose if this lawsuit prevails.

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