Gay clergy splits Lakeville church, ELCA

The leader of one of Minnesota's largest Lutheran congregations said his Lakeville church plans to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America after the denomination loosened restrictions on gays in the clergy.

[sue]

i feel kind of like this is a judgement on humans....and is that in the bible too??? STOP judging people....the world would be a better place!

[Clueless]

sue wrote:

i feel kind of like this is a judgement on humans....and is that in the bible too??? STOP judging people....the world would be a better place!

Sue, can I ask a question? When you say stop judging people; what do you mean?
The Bible tells us not to judge hearts and minds; that is God's role, not ours.
It DOES, however, tell us to judge behavior and call each other out when we
sin. Help each other turn from it and forgive each other. Are you talking
about hearts and minds or behavior when you refer to judging? And, just so
you know, I am not judging you, I'm just wondering your thoughts.

[Strib DeathWatch]

Let the Christians have their church and continue in their traditions and sacraments, let the gays invent yet another political organization that panders for government money. Let the gay Bugchaser Church go with government, leave the real church alone.
I'm sure the "liberals" won't be content with the First Amendment, they will try to destroy all who oppose them through the IRS.

[Godz Will]

Clueless wrote:

<quoted text>
Sue, can I ask a question? When you say stop judging people; what do you mean?
The Bible tells us not to judge hearts and minds; that is God's role, not ours.
It DOES, however, tell us to judge behavior and call each other out when we
sin. Help each other turn from it and forgive each other. Are you talking
about hearts and minds or behavior when you refer to judging? And, just so
you know, I am not judging you, I'm just wondering your thoughts.

You certainly ARE clueless; THERE IS NO GOD, YOU F00L!!! Just because you believe something does NOT make it a fact. There was no WMD but you BELIEVED there was; did your belief make WMD a fact? Also, christianity are the MOST the murderous organization in history, NO ONE has murdered more people than the EVIL christians. Are you unaware of this fact or do you just consider it to be a minor detail to be ignored? Sounds like utter cluelessness. Or are you proud of being a genocidal maniac?

[Clueless]

Godz Will wrote:

<quoted text> You certainly ARE clueless; THERE IS NO GOD, YOU F00L!!! Just because you believe something does NOT make it a fact. There was no WMD but you BELIEVED there was; did your belief make WMD a fact? Also, christianity are the MOST the murderous organization in history, NO ONE has murdered more people than the EVIL christians. Are you unaware of this fact or do you just consider it to be a minor detail to be ignored? Sounds like utter cluelessness. Or are you proud of being a genocidal maniac?

Me thinks thou doest protest too much my friend. If you were right, you
wouldn't care; the passion you show fighting believers suggests you aren't
anywhere near as certain as you claim.
And when it comes to believing, some things are true whether you believe
them or not.
God bless, my friend.

[Truth Missle]

Religion is the most divisive device designed since the discovery of the wedge.

[oxboro]

so much for everone being Gods child..small minded people irritate me

[Rainbow Saint]

Strib DeathWatch wrote:

Let the Christians have their church and continue in their traditions and sacraments, let the gays invent yet another political organization that panders for government money. Let the gay Bugchaser Church go with government, leave the real church alone.
I'm sure the "liberals" won't be content with the First Amendment, they will try to destroy all who oppose them through the IRS.

You've got it backwards. Its the Bigots for Christ who, in 90 days, will be voting to quit going to church; not the True Christians who embrace God's Unconditonal Love.

[nealcmh]

None of the previous posts addresses the specific issue in the article. This will be the first of many congregations trying to go it alone without the ELCA. I say let them leave. It will be nicer for the rest of us that agree with the policy. What I don't understand is how they think the policy effects them since they are not forced to call a GLBT individual in a relationship.

[Clueless]

nealcmh wrote:

None of the previous posts addresses the specific issue in the article. This will be the first of many congregations trying to go it alone without the ELCA. I say let them leave. It will be nicer for the rest of us that agree with the policy. What I don't understand is how they think the policy effects them since they are not forced to call a GLBT individual in a relationship.

If you want to address the specific issue, then you need
to address the GLBTP, not your chosen. Are you sure you
want to?

[Luc]

nealcmh wrote:

None of the previous posts addresses the specific issue in the article. This will be the first of many congregations trying to go it alone without the ELCA. I say let them leave. It will be nicer for the rest of us that agree with the policy. What I don't understand is how they think the policy effects them since they are not forced to call a GLBT individual in a relationship.

Really Neal? Not forced? Not yet any way. It won't be long before this issue is brought in front of a court somewhere. Then they will be forced.

[XD40 Fan]

If this story was about a change to a sect of Islam, I bet the comments would be turned off...

[EJM]

I'm definitely not gay.

If someone is gay, it doesn't affect my life. Saying hello to GLBT people, working with them, or attending a religious service with them won't poison me (or others).

The interesting thing is there obviously still closet gays who proponents of GLBT interact with daily and don't know it. So, what's the problem with Live and Let Live?

[oldtimer]

The luthern church has many faces. I have lived in several different areas of the U. S. and I am always amazed at the variation, within the same denomination, that one finds. My advise is go to a church that preaches your values and leave everyone else alone. Yes, The bible does call homosexuality a sin, but divorce and remarriage is also a sin, according to the Bible. The truth is everyone, picks and chooses, and then believes their's is the only true path to salvation. I believe everyone needs to take the stone out of their own eye, before they go after someone elses.
Judge not, lest yee be judged! As to the atheist's out there. I doubt you have ever been in a foxhole !

[Clueless]

EJM wrote:

I'm definitely not gay.
If someone is gay, it doesn't affect my life. Saying hello to GLBT people, working with them, or attending a religious service with them won't poison me (or others).
The interesting thing is there obviously still closet gays who proponents of GLBT interact with daily and don't know it. So, what's the problem with Live and Let Live?

Nothing; I "let live" every day. So why is this an issue? Is it possible
it is because gays make it one?

Any you also left the 5th color out of the rainbow, the GLBTP. Why?

[Joey]

By having GLBT in the clergy, it sends a message to our children that this behavior is OK.

Would you have a clergy member at the front of the church injecting heroin into their arm? Then saying, "Do not judge"

We must set a proper example for our children. They can learn all about the gay lifestyle when they are grown.

[ivelostmimarblez]

oldtimer wrote:

The luthern church has many faces. I have lived in several different areas of the U. S. and I am always amazed at the variation, within the same denomination, that one finds. My advise is go to a church that preaches your values and leave everyone else alone. Yes, The bible does call homosexuality a sin, but divorce and remarriage is also a sin, according to the Bible. The truth is everyone, picks and chooses, and then believes their's is the only true path to salvation. I believe everyone needs to take the stone out of their own eye, before they go after someone elses.
Judge not, lest yee be judged! As to the atheist's out there. I doubt you have ever been in a foxhole !

I suffered through horrifying moments, expecting to be killed. I was convinced that no cosmic rescuer would same me. Besides, I believed life after death was merely wishful thinking. There were times when I expected to suffer a painful, agonizing death. My frustration and anger at being caught in a dilemma of life-and-death situations simply infuriated me. Hearing the sound of bullets whistling through the air and popping near my ears was damned scary. Fortunately, I was never physically wounded-- Phillip Paulson
Clearly "there are no atheists in foxholes" makes for a nice and nearly Hallmark card worthy rallying cry for Christians but the reality is that it simply doesn't make a difference ultimately.
How can such an experience contribute to absolute faith? Even if we can assume that a generally unbelieving individual would have sudden "faith" in a time of crisis wouldn't it be just an individual desire to not have ultimate and permanent death? Many (not saying all) religious folk adhere to religion based solely on this premise alone. They simply don't want to imagine themselves as dead and gone which is a very human trait I admit.(We are an arrogant lot after all) Another reason is the idea that they want to imagine previously passed loved ones as being something that they will get to experience again. "My grandmother died, but I miss her, so I will grasp a belief in hopes that one day I will get to see her again". Again, this is egocentric. It is ultimately about you and what you desire to see/experience.

[Rainbow Saint]

oldtimer wrote:

Yes, The bible does call homosexuality a sin,

This is the statement that gets all the "christians" in trouble. They hear it from a parent, teacher, or preacher, but can't find it anywhere in the Holy Bible even if they wanted to.

Here is God's official list of sins. Everything else is heresay.
__________

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day

4. Honor thy father and thy mother

5. Thou shalt not kill

6. Thou shalt not commit adultery

7. Thou shalt not steal

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
__________

Perhaps Bigots for Christ added this one to God's Stone Tablet?

11. Thou shalt not be born with homosexual orientation

[ivelostmimarblez]

oldtimer wrote:

The luthern church has many faces. I have lived in several different areas of the U. S. and I am always amazed at the variation, within the same denomination, that one finds. My advise is go to a church that preaches your values and leave everyone else alone. Yes, The bible does call homosexuality a sin, but divorce and remarriage is also a sin, according to the Bible. The truth is everyone, picks and chooses, and then believes their's is the only true path to salvation. I believe everyone needs to take the stone out of their own eye, before they go after someone elses.
Judge not, lest yee be judged! As to the atheist's out there. I doubt you have ever been in a foxhole !

Here is another exerpt from someone who has actually been in a "foxhole"

My great-grandfather returned from the Somme in the winter of 1916. He was an officer in a Welsh Guards regiment. He had been gassed and shot and had seen his platoon numerically wiped out and replaced more than three times since he first took command of it. He had used his side arm, a Webley revolver, so much that its barrel was pitted into uselessness. I heard a story about one of his advances across no-man's-land in which he set out with a full company and by the time he arrived at the German wire was one of only two men left alive.

Until that time, this branch of my family had been Calvinistic Methodists... But when he returned from the war, my great-grandfather had seen enough to change his mind. He gathered the family together and banned religion in his house.'Either god is a bastard,' he said,'or god isn't there at all.'

Paul Watkins

[ivelostmimarblez]

Rainbow Saint wrote:

<quoted text>
This is the statement that gets all the "christians" in trouble. They hear it from a parent, teacher, or preacher, but can't find it anywhere in the Holy Bible even if they wanted to.
Here is God's official list of sins. Everything else is heresay.
__________
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day
4. Honor thy father and thy mother
5. Thou shalt not kill
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery
7. Thou shalt not steal
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
__________
Perhaps Bigots for Christ added this one to God's Stone Tablet?
11. Thou shalt not be born with homosexual orientation

I always find it humorous how Christians claim the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian principals when the reality is that the only commandments that could even be remotely considered law are "Thou shall not kill" and "Thou shall not steal"... which wasn't exactly a new concept by the time the Jews began to assimilate their religious bits from previous belief systems.