Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

Feb 5, 2008 Read more: Dayton Daily News 31,813

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Not out of 100

Mount Gilead, OH

#24483 Apr 29, 2013
You have completely screwed up interpreting the OAT grading scale as used in your example here! The OAT is not "out of 100", it is based on their ability to answer a range of questions correctly based on their current learned skills and abilities in that grade. It is NOT an x/100 grading scale that you are apparently using. There are questions on the test for that grade which are way BELOW where a student is able to answer, and then questions way ABOVE where a student is able to answer. The net is where they place in that spectrum, and not "out of 100". Some questions are "gimme's" and some are on material they have not learned or will not learn for a year or two. How else would you gauge where a student is in thier progress overall? I would certainly like to see every student in Springboro score at the 50-70%+ level, meaning they are ahead of their poor performing(50%)counterparts, but wait, using your own numbers below, they ARE scoring at 50-70%+ rating when 50% is used as the correct baseline.
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
... How can you look a child in the face and tell him 32% correct on a basic test makes him or her good enough?
If you wish to debate the points, debate the points.
Explain why I am wrong when I say 80% of the kids scoring less than 74% on a standardized basic math test is not good.
Go on, defend why 54% of the kids scoring 63% and below is really a good thing for those children.
Tell everyone how this okay and won't harm the children's prospects in the future.
Ask the union to address this issue during negotiation and then see how their pay looks.
8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
.
.
.
Is this the level of achievement to which we wish to aspire in Springboro?
.
Is this the best we are capable of given our resources?
.
Should we continue to allow the schools and the state to hide behind euphemisms rather than actual achievement?
.
Demand better, our children and taxpayers deserve a real return on our investment in our schools.
GetRidOfTests

Milford, OH

#24484 Apr 29, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
That is right, its the kids fault, how could I have missed that one?
Show me the frequency scoring on the ACT and we will talk.
Our average, even with all the smart kids pulling it up, isn't that great.
It will get you admitted to many lower tiered schools, but top notch programs are not that impressed.
Ask your three kids if the kids take these tests seriously. Do it, please. I guarantee you they will say they don't. Springboro's average ACT score is 24. That will get kids into colleges and university's.
Numbers

Milford, OH

#24485 Apr 29, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
I love the way you manipulate numbers, I bet your printing business is the best in the state!
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24486 Apr 29, 2013
GetRidOfTests wrote:
<quoted text>
Ask your three kids if the kids take these tests seriously. Do it, please. I guarantee you they will say they don't. Springboro's average ACT score is 24. That will get kids into colleges and university's.
You do know that average means all the scores added up then divided by the number of participants.

An average does not tell you the frequency distribution of the scores.

Example: 20 people scoring 18 on their ACT and 20 people scoring 30 on their ACT will give you an average of 24 the ACT.

While those scoring 30 will probably do well, those on the bottom end of the scale will not.
But the average is still 24.

You do not have enough information with just an average to make any assertions that contain any validity past the fact that the average is this much.

Let's examine the complete results and see where our program needs tweaking
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24487 Apr 29, 2013
GetRidOfTests wrote:
<quoted text>
Ask your three kids if the kids take these tests seriously. Do it, please. I guarantee you they will say they don't. Springboro's average ACT score is 24. That will get kids into colleges and university's.
You would be incorrect in that assertion, they do take them seriously because they know they are used to evaluate classroom placements.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24488 Apr 29, 2013
Not out of 100 wrote:
You have completely screwed up interpreting the OAT grading scale as used in your example here! The OAT is not "out of 100", it is based on their ability to answer a range of questions correctly based on their current learned skills and abilities in that grade. It is NOT an x/100 grading scale that you are apparently using. There are questions on the test for that grade which are way BELOW where a student is able to answer, and then questions way ABOVE where a student is able to answer. The net is where they place in that spectrum, and not "out of 100". Some questions are "gimme's" and some are on material they have not learned or will not learn for a year or two. How else would you gauge where a student is in thier progress overall? I would certainly like to see every student in Springboro score at the 50-70%+ level, meaning they are ahead of their poor performing(50%)counterparts, but wait, using your own numbers below, they ARE scoring at 50-70%+ rating when 50% is used as the correct baseline.
<quoted text>
The questions in the test are broken into sections designed as you say to test the most basic portions of the subject.

The number of questions answered correctly place a student in a state defined class. Listed below are the number of correct answers that correspond to each EUPHEMISM the state employs. We know how many points are available on a given test, it then becomes a simple matter of employing the lessons learned in third grade regarding division. That provides us with the percentage of questions our children got correct.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages...

Go to the Math section and click on the Grade 8 Mathematics Blueprint

65-75% of the test is Low to Moderate complexity

Complexity ..........Characteristics..... ..... of Points
Low ..........Requires recall of facts and definitions ..........25 - 35%
..........or performing routine, specified procedures.
.
Moderate.......... Requires some interpretation..........40 - 50%
..........or multi-step problem solutions.
.
High ..........Requires analysis of or justifying reasoning......15 - 25%
.......... and solution for more complicated problem situations.

8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24489 Apr 29, 2013
The test blueprint headers should read

Level of Complexity.......Characteristi cs of Questions.....% of Points

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages...

Practice tests and answers in the test administrators guide
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24490 Apr 29, 2013
In case you are wondering the 65%- 75% of the test in the low to moderately complex portion is the part C, D, and F students should get.

We had just 20% of our 8th graders master more than that basic amount.

And we are considered excellent with distinction?

Our competition in the Dayton Public Schools had less than 1% score as well, or just 9 children out of 1023.

Still want to blame the children?
Numbers

New Albany, OH

#24491 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
You would be incorrect in that assertion, they do take them seriously because they know they are used to evaluate classroom placements.
I didn't say your three kids. I said ask your kids how the other kids take this test seriously or not.
Numbers

New Albany, OH

#24492 Apr 30, 2013
The way you throw numbers on this blog shows the exact reason why teachers should not be evaluated on these test scores. Your comments about the students not getting an education in Springboro prove you do not know what is going on in a classroom. The majority of these students know these tests don't mean nothing to them. They don't care about it. You are just like the rest of the politicians, you think you know what is going on in the classroom without ever leading 25-30 kids in a lesson. You have never set foot in front of a classroom and you claim that children are being deprived. You really have no clue. Now I'm sure you'll come back on here and say you do, But the truth is you're just like all the rest of the politicians and have no idea what takes place in a classroom, you base all of your assumptions off of a test that students do not take seriously. Yes I agree with you that some do take this test seriously, but a large number of students do not because they know that if they do poorly on it it does not matter to them. There are no consequences for doing poorly on this test. That's the problem.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24493 Apr 30, 2013
Numbers wrote:
The way you throw numbers on this blog shows the exact reason why teachers should not be evaluated on these test scores. Your comments about the students not getting an education in Springboro prove you do not know what is going on in a classroom. The majority of these students know these tests don't mean nothing to them. They don't care about it. You are just like the rest of the politicians, you think you know what is going on in the classroom without ever leading 25-30 kids in a lesson. You have never set foot in front of a classroom and you claim that children are being deprived. You really have no clue. Now I'm sure you'll come back on here and say you do, But the truth is you're just like all the rest of the politicians and have no idea what takes place in a classroom, you base all of your assumptions off of a test that students do not take seriously. Yes I agree with you that some do take this test seriously, but a large number of students do not because they know that if they do poorly on it it does not matter to them. There are no consequences for doing poorly on this test. That's the problem.
Based upon your train of logic, the teacher has no influence over the education of the children in their charge. It thus follows that it does not matter who the teacher is because a large percentage of students will not take their education seriously.

Which begs the question if the teacher does not matter and children are not serious, then why do we bother to spend large sums of money on a losing endeavor? If babysitters is all we need, could we not employ others with the proper credentials less expensively than $30-$70/hour?

That being the case, what do we do with those children who do wish to learn? I think you subtle way of promoting a charter school may be the answer.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24494 Apr 30, 2013
Numbers wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't say your three kids. I said ask your kids how the other kids take this test seriously or not.
Ask Mrs. Babb if her kids take the test seriously?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24496 Apr 30, 2013
Social Worker wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you test the black kids also?
If you can't adequately defend your indefensible position, try changing the argument , maybe no one will notice.

The facts till remain that over 2000 plus children in this district are not receiving the education that the taxpayers are funding.

32% of the questions correct on a basic Ohio Achievement Assessment Math test in the 8th grade is not PROFICIENT.

32% represents an abject FAILURE of our system.

Those who understand and perpetuate this farce are demonstrating a wanton disregard for the children in their charge.

NO amount of SEMANTICS and EUPHEMISMS will replace actual education.

2000 plus children need your help in driving this point home to the union.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24497 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
Actually, 89% of the teachers haven't had a raise in 3 years, not one year as you claim. 404 of the 454 listed on the website (the list is back up there after being removed for some reason). Only 50 have received raises in the past three years and it looks like 38 of them were from FY11-FY12. So only 12 of 454 have received a raise over the past two years or 3%.
Freedom of speech

Girard, OH

#24498 Apr 30, 2013
Convert wrote:
I never used to believe that 2000 plus kid stuff until I noticed nobody ever does say the data Wiedeman posts is wrong. Everybody just attacks the messenger.
I looked at that union strategy book and will see how many things we see they show up with in the next few weeks.
The data is correct but the assumptions from the data are incorrect. Why bother trying to explain that to people who don't want to listen. It is easier to believe that our schools are failing. Which in turn makes is easier to not support our schools.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24499 Apr 30, 2013
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.

What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?

How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?

Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.

For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.

Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.

Tell us again how you are a value at the above prices with the results we are seeing in our schools.
Numbers

Cleveland, OH

#24500 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
Tell us again how you are a value at the above prices with the results we are seeing in our schools.
Your numbers are so off it's comical. Springboro does not have any teachers that make 70 dollars an hour. Thats 97,000+ a year. Keep beating your chest and posting inaccurate numbers about the teachers of Springboro's salaries. And if we do have one, please post their name and proof they make this much. We all know how you love numbers!!!!
poundsand

Miamisburg, OH

#24502 Apr 30, 2013
Numbers wrote:
<quoted text>
Your numbers are so off it's comical. Springboro does not have any teachers that make 70 dollars an hour. Thats 97,000+ a year. Keep beating your chest and posting inaccurate numbers about the teachers of Springboro's salaries. And if we do have one, please post their name and proof they make this much. We all know how you love numbers!!!!
Hey Corona, CA, you can post under all the aliases you want. It doesn't hide the fact that your a liberal, union, democrat shill. Get out of our forum and stick to bankrupting your own corrupt state.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24503 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
Tell us again how you are a value at the above prices with the results we are seeing in our schools.
And of course data has been provided (by the BOE mind you) that refutes your repeated comments about no raises and yet no answer or retort to it? You just keep repeating the same drivel over and over. Typical.
They want how much

Columbus, OH

#24504 Apr 30, 2013
I know how much I make per year. I am Salderid, and I have to work the whole year to earn my salary. If you don't Like your job, quit. Find a new one that pays you the kind of money you are making now. I looked at just watchings numbers and they make sense to me. The only thing just watching forgot was the cost of the teachers insurance. That too is the cost of the employee. The truth is the truth.

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