Letters on Homestead Heritage: Commun...

Letters on Homestead Heritage: Community or cult?

There are 8729 comments on the Waco Tribune-Herald story from May 20, 2007, titled Letters on Homestead Heritage: Community or cult?. In it, Waco Tribune-Herald reports that:

For seven years, we've shared fence lines with members of Homestead Heritage on three sides of our land.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Waco Tribune-Herald.

Mr Reformed killer

Frisco, TX

#7453 Apr 6, 2015
Mr Zombie wrote:
<quoted text>
I am Zombie.
I have discovered life forms in basement.
I will devour them.
I will make little rodent zombies out of the rats and badgers, and they will zombie-Ize all other rodents. From bats to rats then rats to cats, they shall all become ravenous zombies, just like me.
Pardon my rant, I just saw a Christian. He must me made a zombie too....
I am here because I am very confused.
This discussion board has shaken my identity, and challenged me, and ultimately, made me a better person. I owe it all to you, Mr and Mrs cult hunter.
I have forsaken my bloodthirsty ways, and have become a better person. I no longer want to slay rodents in their basement homes. I only want to love them, and nurture them, and teach them better ways.
(Said no creepshow, ever)
Basement dweller

Frisco, TX

#7454 Apr 6, 2015
Basement Dweller wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh my gosh! How do you know me, and my life, so well??!
I'm a Republican too, and my greatest fears, in order, are;
Zombies,
Dems,
Blacks.
Please help me! I've been on this self imposed exile/banishment in my basement, for far too long.
(My main motivation, in this newfound desire for freedom, is I've run out of names for all my rodent friends. Clement, the rat, is evil eyeing right now as I type this. He's crying little tiny rat tears, and begging me to stay.
Obviously, I need help)
After having read the brilliance of thought and glittering displays of intelligence that I've witnessed on this discussion board, I've decided to remain safe and at peace in my basement.
It's the best place for me.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7455 Apr 16, 2015
Howard Wheeler spoke at Buddy's funeral.

He ends with a statement that Bud would not be past them Pearly Gates without having come back to HH in faith...

This means all you exes out there and me too, must come back into Covenant...THEIR Covenant which most or all of you did brake when you left...in order to ALSO get past them er Pearly Gates...

Maybe I would be excluded since I NEVER MADE Covenant or were allowed to. I wanted to last time I was interrogated by the elders...but my conviction of HH was not enough, making them LORDS of this earth was not part of the deal for me.

When you make Howard LORD, and Joel LORD, and Tony LORD and Blair LORD, and come back to them, then you too will know Grace in Action. We the decrepidated who were ignorant to start just never had a chance.

They won't SAY to make them LORDS, but is this not the real thing they always considered?

What was the biblical meaning of LORD in NT? 71 verses say God and Jesus as LORD in the same sentence, never reversed, the Father as LORD, and Jesus as GOD.

LORDS were in OT for angels...Paul asks when blinded by light, "Who are you, LORD?" Not knowing even who was up there, confronting him, not knowing who this was...

The Hebrew and Aramaic makes the distinction between ADONI and ADONAI, which the Koine does not discern...for me Jesus is ADONI always for Paul and for the authors of NT, which is in turn hardly ever used of God...successive sentences with God as Lord and Jesus as lord smudge this difference in both the Koine and the English. However, the fact that Jesus is LORD in NT, and never GOD in NT tells the story. Adoni for Jesus, Adonai for God. Psalm 110 YHWH said to my adoni...is "God said to my lord (Jesus)...and this is the true distinction.

Are the elders adoni? Yes this could be true. Are they adoni as Jesus was adoni? Or any angel of the Lord?

No, since an angel of the Lord will be having the direct words of the Adonai. Jesus is above the angels, attested to by Hebrews.

Once you understand, then Joel could even be "adoni." A lesser one of course. But was a second Covenant to HH a requisite of salvation? You exes out there are ever confronted with the same thing Bud was on his deathbed. NO? Then as you were. YES? Then repent and go back. Howard has made it plain for the lot of ye.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#7456 Apr 16, 2015
(Howard Wheeler spoke at Buddy's funeral.

He ends with a statement that Bud would not be past them Pearly Gates without having come back to HH in faith...

This means all you exes out there and me too, must come back into Covenant...THEIR Covenant which most or all of you did brake when you left...in order to ALSO get past them er Pearly Gates...)Baaah

There is NO Holy Scripture to back such a claim.

ACTS 2:
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

Jesus is amazing. The gift of HIS salvation and grace is for all who believe.

Since: Jan 15

Asheville, NC -

#7457 Apr 16, 2015
"The Hebrew and Aramaic makes the distinction between ADONI and ADONAI, which the Koine does not discern."

You can see that distinction properly discerned and given in the pure word of God, both the OT and NT.

Psalms 110:1 (AV)
A Psalm of David.
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mark 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Steven
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7458 Apr 17, 2015
I lived to tell the truth wrote:
(Howard Wheeler spoke at Buddy's funeral.
He ends with a statement that Bud would not be past them Pearly Gates without having come back to HH in faith...
This means all you exes out there and me too, must come back into Covenant...THEIR Covenant which most or all of you did brake when you left...in order to ALSO get past them er Pearly Gates...)Baaah
There is NO Holy Scripture to back such a claim.
ACTS 2:
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]
Jesus is amazing. The gift of HIS salvation and grace is for all who believe.
They liken their Covenant to HH as the faithful exclamation of Naomi to Ruth:

The book tells of Ruth's accepting the God of the Israelites as her God and the Israelite people as her own. In Ruth 1:16 and 17 Ruth tells Naomi, her Israelite mother in law, "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me." ---Ruth wiki

The distinction would be of course, Naomi adheres in faith and loyalty to a person first, and her GOD second, and her "people" third. None of this mentions a denomination or institution (subset) of these Jews. In HH you are bound not to a person, but to the leadership of their own brand of institution.

Within the leadership is the purpose and vision of that leadership. Within "proper channels of authority" you are bound to their own visionary manifestations of destiny. Working the land, home schooling, being overseen by themselves as Shepherds.

Their own leadership was rejected, although they made no covenant with Phillips or his Church.
This break was cemented when pastor Phillips rebuked them publicly. Adams changed his own son's name and symbolized the break as concrete and everlasting. The rebuke had to do with this very subject, HH is a cult or community of faith.

The history of making and breaking bonds was initiated by the leadership of HH when they broke off from both their pastor and from the Apostolic Denomination. It is hard for me to see how breaking
personal relationships constitutes heaven or hell since not one ex ever left without some degree of soul-searching and prayer. Bud may very well have left more because of personal heartbreak, his sons leaving before him...but to say he had no reservations concerning the ministry would be too much in my view. How he turned back once again, who would say. I don't.

The Essenes may have had such a covenant. A converted Essene would naturally no longer be a cave-dweller, and a disciple of John who converted would naturally no longer follow John. John drank no wine, and we know the disciples did. John's diet was meager, the disciples ate what Jesus did.

We follow the Spirit as it leads, that is all. If we don't have a full indwelling that is on us, not them.
And God will judge us by Shema first, whether we loved Him or not.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7459 Apr 17, 2015
Ruth to Naomi, not Naomi to Ruth. Correction.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7460 Apr 17, 2015
Steven Spencer wrote:
"The Hebrew and Aramaic makes the distinction between ADONI and ADONAI, which the Koine does not discern."
You can see that distinction properly discerned and given in the pure word of God, both the OT and NT.
Psalms 110:1 (AV)
A Psalm of David.
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Steven
Two "lords" in Psalm 110, Septuagint. The first "lord" is YHWH as described by the Hebrew. The second "lord" is "adoni" described by the Massoretic text.

The ONE LORD of Paul in Ephesians 4 is also "adoni" in my view. Which explains the two lords in the Septuagint, even if Eph 4 is Adonai...since he is saying most likely we follow ONE adoni, Jesus OR one LORD Adonai, God.

Apostolic view says both Father and Son are LORD, adonai. Two Persons make one LORD since they view God as both Father and Son. This still abrogates Psalm 110, which has two "lords."

"The LORD said to my Lord..." count them.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#7461 Apr 17, 2015
1 Corinthians 1
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says,“I follow Paul”; another,“I follow Apollos”; another,“I follow Cephas[b]”; still another,“I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 4
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying,“Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

If Blair and Howard would live by the Holy Bible HH would NOT have become the spiritual mess that it is.

“Do not go beyond what is written.”
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#7462 Apr 17, 2015
For all of Baaah and Steven's copious amounts of posts questioning Holy Scripture-in order to take the focus of this forum OFF OF HH:

1 Corinthians 1
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the
power of God and the wisdom of God.

but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

That is what it is all about. JESUS.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7463 Apr 17, 2015
I lived to tell the truth wrote:
1 Corinthians 1
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says,“I follow Paul”; another,“I follow Apollos”; another,“I follow Cephas[b]”; still another,“I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 4
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying,“Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
If Blair and Howard would live by the Holy Bible HH would NOT have become the spiritual mess that it is.
“Do not go beyond what is written.”
If you did not go beyond what was written, you would not have gone back to what I suspect is Trinitarianism, ma'am. Since you did not answer my question, are you now a trin again?

Jesus never said he was God. This is beyond what was written. What was written happens to be the Great Command, Shema. YHWH Elohim, YHWH one. This means God's IDENTITY and NAME is singular and alone, numerically. And His BEING or EXISTENCE as "God" is also singular and alone, numerically. Said plainly, so that even a child could understand. Peshat Law, plain and simple.

And affirmed as accurate and true by Jesus himself, Mk 12. NO OTHER BUT HE, said by the scribe, who was told he was CLOSE to them Pearly Gates. What then was the key to salvation for him? To ABROGATE what he already knew, or to ADD Messiah to the One True and Only God in his faith?
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7464 Apr 17, 2015
Joel Hemphill, former second gen Oneness Pentecostal preacher now Abrahamic Monotheist.

Dan Gill, former Oneness Pentecostal preacher, now Abrahamic Monotheist.

Davidkc, PHD and published writer, former Oneness Pentecostal, now Abrahamic Monotheist.

Forever4Truth, and I along with Davidkc all former Oneness Pentecostals, on the Carm forum. With "Neal" and Aeg4371 as opposers, still Oneness.

We did not consider Jesus as "elohim" under the One True God and over the angels from a whim. This is not my homemade theology. This is a new revolution. But this was arguably the mainline view pre-Nicaea.

As facebook spawned a new revolution in Egypt, so too theological sites for debate spawns a new revolution of Jesus. Questioning the status quo, the mainliner and the OnePent Theology. New Reformation is in the making and the web is the catalyst. Hang Amish and Mennonite view. We in the ethers know from antagonism comes the main refutes and views. We also know that true view can only be one option.

Since: Jan 15

Asheville, NC -

#7465 Apr 17, 2015
"...Steven's copious amounts of posts questioning Holy Scripture"

This is simply untrue.
Please, you should be more careful with your words.(Matthew 12:36)

Steven Avery

Since: Jan 15

Asheville, NC -

#7466 Apr 17, 2015
Bay, you are referencing a number of men who are weak on the scriptures. As an example, Joel Hemphill incredibly misrepresents the heavenly witnesses evidences, and he mangled Nicea terribly.(Often working with Dan Gill). And I tried to ask him if he also fights against the words in the pure Bible "God was manifest in the flesh..".(To be fair, he did invite me to call him and discuss.)

And I have no idea why you have hostility to the Amish and Mennonites, historically they have been quite radical. Even if, like many, many of their groups homogenized doctrinally under the pressures of the last century or two. They definitely questioned the status quo, often unto martyrdom.

Steven
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#7467 Apr 17, 2015
Your purpose is to take the attention OFF of HH.

THAT IS EVIDENT.

If you want a religion discussion go to a religion blog.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7469 Apr 17, 2015
Steven Spencer wrote:
"...Steven's copious amounts of posts questioning Holy Scripture"
This is simply untrue.
Please, you should be more careful with your words.(Matthew 12:36)
Steven Avery
Hey, you famous, dude. I watched your every post in the old forum. Spencer must be your middle name.

Heh. Mice and rodents beware.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7470 Apr 17, 2015
Steven Spencer wrote:
Bay, you are referencing a number of men who are weak on the scriptures. As an example, Joel Hemphill incredibly misrepresents the heavenly witnesses evidences, and he mangled Nicea terribly.(Often working with Dan Gill). And I tried to ask him if he also fights against the words in the pure Bible "God was manifest in the flesh..".(To be fair, he did invite me to call him and discuss.)
And I have no idea why you have hostility to the Amish and Mennonites, historically they have been quite radical. Even if, like many, many of their groups homogenized doctrinally under the pressures of the last century or two. They definitely questioned the status quo, often unto martyrdom.
Steven
Don't have nothin' against Mennonites OR Amish, except the stiltifying lack of Holy Ghost, being not pentecostal.

God was manifest in the flesh...textual variants abound, although you KJV onliest.

"He appeared in a body" (NIV)

"He who was manifested in the flesh" (ASV)

"He who was revealed in the flesh" (NASB)

"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)

"Which was manifested in the flesh" (Douey-Rheims)

"Who was manifested in the flesh" (NAB)"

I know you studied more than me, only two years investigating deity of Jesus, howsomever.

Jack the Bear has made a good argument for the alt-terp: on his Trinity Delusion site.

When the Christological controversies were occurring in the fourth century, we do not see even one solitary person making a reference to the "God was manifested in the flesh" version of this verse as evidence for identifying Jesus as "God." This fact does itself undeniably demonstrate it was unknown to them. If indeed 1 Timothy 3:16 really said "God was manifest in the flesh," we can most definitely be sure this passage would have most been brought forward as "Exhibit A." Yet, not one soul mentions it even though this passage more than any other would have supported the teaching that the incarnate Christ was "God."

So then give your refute and good luck. I always savor true debate, amongst the best in the field.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7471 Apr 17, 2015
Steven Spencer wrote:
Bay, you are referencing a number of men who are weak on the scriptures. As an example, Joel Hemphill incredibly misrepresents the heavenly witnesses evidences, and he mangled Nicea terribly.(Often working with Dan Gill). And I tried to ask him if he also fights against the words in the pure Bible "God was manifest in the flesh..".(To be fair, he did invite me to call him and discuss.)
And I have no idea why you have hostility to the Amish and Mennonites, historically they have been quite radical. Even if, like many, many of their groups homogenized doctrinally under the pressures of the last century or two. They definitely questioned the status quo, often unto martyrdom.
Steven
It isn't either an analomy for a OnePent to accept Nicaea, and reject in turn the Council of Constantinople 381.

What I find hard to believe is WHY. Both sides used Greek shenanigans and not Jewish POV. Terminology and haggling over OUSIA and HYPOSTASIS of God oh my. The SPECULATION which NO FAITHFUL JEW ever did about God's ontology and nature. The IMPETUS of the pagan Constantine to even have this Council in the first place. And his own speech PROVING his pagan view of Christ, using pagan poetry and prophesy.

And the MOST compelling NEGATIVE for the Council was the entire LACK of discussion of the Great Command, Shema. PROVING they had no idea what the first red flag for the divinity of Christ for the Jew was.

Surely being Messianic you could understand, and yet your loyalty to your roots seems to blind you, sir. Jews for Jesus CLAIM the echad of the Adonai is compound, hardly EVER in lexical definition. Less than 1 percent according to Strong's.
Baybeh

Austin, TX

#7472 Apr 17, 2015
Steven Spencer wrote:
Bay, you are referencing a number of men who are weak on the scriptures. As an example, Joel Hemphill incredibly misrepresents the heavenly witnesses evidences, and he mangled Nicea terribly.(Often working with Dan Gill). And I tried to ask him if he also fights against the words in the pure Bible "God was manifest in the flesh..".(To be fair, he did invite me to call him and discuss.)
And I have no idea why you have hostility to the Amish and Mennonites, historically they have been quite radical. Even if, like many, many of their groups homogenized doctrinally under the pressures of the last century or two. They definitely questioned the status quo, often unto martyrdom.
Steven
As far as his (Hemphill's) weakness in lack of adherance to scripture, my view of your own is a mixture of clinging unto odd views like KJV only, and Jesus' deity too, but within the auspices of scholarship, which no man could refute your lack thereof. I know you know a lot about history and opposing views and which scholar says this and which says that. I've read your posts in the ethers for as long as I've been here, not long.

However, the Shema and the Ten are not but simple command. Shema is YHWH as identity and being...in the numerically SINGULAR sense, just as every Jew born was taught.

This is not the OnePent view of Shema and is not the trin view of Shema. But it was in fact plain text so that even children would fear the One True God and adhere to Him cleaving unto. This command is the ONLY one a man could not do, in order to be righteous, for the Ten are doable. To love God with all of you was done only by ONE man, the second ADAM, synonymous as name for the Jew to MAN. "Son of Adam" was in fact the Koine "son of man," said almost 100 times by Jesus referencing himself. If we could in fact DO Shema, we would not in turn NEED the New Covenant.

And don't think in context of this forum I did not notice your lack of address to a second Covenant to HH being requisite for salvation. Did you make covenant with them or leave before they ESTABLISHED it? Curious, sir.
Steven Spencer

New York, NY

#7473 Apr 18, 2015
This is being written while sitting in "Obama Park" ... near Fort Totten, a name given because it is taking our local apparatchiks three years to build a comfort station.

Quick comments ... Jews for Jesus confusions on Elohim and Echad can be bypassed as of little relevance.

Some one seems to be feeding you mangled info on "God was manifest in the flesh..." ... Compared to the who-which (not He) ultra-minority Greek variants. May I suggest you start with at least a skim of John William Burgon in Revision Revised, where there is a very neat section on the topic. Modern summaries of the ECW refs are also available. The pure Bible usage was extensive, even to overwhelming, while the solecisms corruption "who" faded away from Greek usage.

My middle name is Avery, as I pointed out above, which I have used on the Net for many years.

CARM had often been an edifying and challenging forum, the erasure by purging of threads after a year or three has been the big limitation, so now it is de minimis. You might like the long thread with the title "Granville Sharp Rules".

Steven

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